Last Fearner, DArnold, & Kacey: Sidekick Question

[stoneheart]

I hope you (and anyone else reading this) can take the time to offer your thoughts on this.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who studies karate (the Soryu style). He made the argument that a sidekick is more damaging when the motion is not only OUT but UP as well. The example he gave was the floating rib target or even the area right underneath your armpit. He thought you should get lower against an equally tall opponent by bending your knees before kicking. Your lower starting position lets you still shoot out the sidekick in a straight path, but the trajectory is such that you will strike at an upward angle.

I have no strong opinions either way, but I'd love to hear what some hardcore TKD people think. Thanks in advance.

 

[Dave Leverich]

It has some merit there as you then are pushing vs their entire body weight. Similar to how the uppercut punch used to the body can lift the person off the ground.

 

[Kacey]

I hope you (and anyone else reading this) can take the time to offer your thoughts on this.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who studies karate (the Soryu style). He made the argument that a sidekick is more damaging when the motion is not only OUT but UP as well. The example he gave was the floating rib target or even the area right underneath your armpit. He thought you should get lower against an equally tall opponent by bending your knees before kicking. Your lower starting position lets you still shoot out the sidekick in a straight path, but the trajectory is such that you will strike at an upward angle.

I have no strong opinions either way, but I'd love to hear what some hardcore TKD people think. Thanks in advance.

Well, the greatest amount of power is going to come when the kick is perpendicular to the target - that is, when the leg is horizontal to the floor, and exactly at hip level. That said, however, softer targets don't require as much power as harder targets - so it's really going to depend on what you're trying to hit and how much damage you want to do. You will lose power as you raise the kick above your hip - but softer targets don't require as much power, and you can do more damage with less power to those targets. So my answer is a qualified "it depends" - which, I realize, isn't what you're after, but I hope the explanations I'm giving will help.

Then there are the variations of side kick. The one people think of most often - that most people mean when they refer to side kick, is the side piercing kick, which is performed with the footsword, specifically the part just in front of the heel (some people do side kick with the bottom of the heel, but that's a larger tool that is correspondingly less powerful than the footsword - smaller tool = more power in a concentrated area). This is the most powerful variation of the side kick, and is the one generally used for breaking.

Thrusting side kick is the same leg motion, but the tool is the ball of the foot, so the foot is extended with the toes pulled back - the purpose of this kick is primarily to extend the length of the leg. Some power is sacrificed for extra distance - but it's a great soft target tool, because the extended foot can be easier to get past both the opponent's guard and up under the floating ribs, as described in your post.

Pushing side kick is performed without snap, with the bottom of the foot - as the name implies, it is a push - a shove - rather than a snap, and is intended to push your opponent off you; the usual target is the top of the hip, which will both push your opponent off and fold his leg at the hip, causing him to stumble, and, hopefully, fall.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Btw, doing a flying pushing side kick can teach your partner how to fly.
Heh, I did that once in 87 and my friend still tells people how I taught him to fly (rising pushing side kick, pushing out as I landed, him holding the firm shield).

 

[terryl965]

Stoneheart what your friend is talking about is called a rising sidekick, this is done with the same as a regular sidekick except when you release the leg from the hip you are also moving the kick though and up into the lower ribs or from the upper chest though the under part of the head which will add alot of power behind the kick. The power that can be generated with the kick is outstanding.

 

[shesulsa]

*edit*

Nevermind.

 

[Miles]

I hope you (and anyone else reading this) can take the time to offer your thoughts on this.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who studies karate (the Soryu style). He made the argument that a sidekick is more damaging when the motion is not only OUT but UP as well. The example he gave was the floating rib target or even the area right underneath your armpit. He thought you should get lower against an equally tall opponent by bending your knees before kicking. Your lower starting position lets you still shoot out the sidekick in a straight path, but the trajectory is such that you will strike at an upward angle.

I have no strong opinions either way, but I'd love to hear what some hardcore TKD people think. Thanks in advance.

Actually, I think the sidekick is more powerful if it is going down, using gravity. If you are kicking up, you are going against gravity and assuming all other things (speed, distance, and target) are equal, it won't be as powerful.

Now, there are numerous ways to perform a side kick-I've seen people do a arcing sweeping kick, pull their knee to their opposite shoulder, chamber while rotating, wait to completely rotate,etc. There are also different weapons=i.e., foot sword, heel, ball of foot, etc.. Also, there are different "delivery" systems..i.e. front foot/back foot, skipping, jumping, stepping, flying, falling kicks.

That's why TKD is so cool-there is always something to work on!

Miles

 

[Sukerkin]

*edit*

Nevermind.

Tease :lol:

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Actually, I think the sidekick is more powerful if it is going down, using gravity.

So did General Choi, in his theory of power if I remember correctly. I find it best when lined up level with my hip and straight out.

I know when I trained with a very well respected Shotokan school they used to use a side kick which chambered as usual and kind of rose up under the ribs, if that makes sense. I still like that for sparring.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Remember the kick is also more powerful when your full body is moving towards your opponet not when half of your body is moving in the opposit direction.
I would have to agree that the kick is more powerful when delivered downward

 

[shesulsa]

Tease :lol:

I didn't want to be the bringer of negativity ... I agree with Miles, FieldDiscipline and Tshadowchaser.

The scooping side kick or "rising" side kick can put too much strain in areas of the knee. I've strained a knee doing that very kick. I went "ow" the other guy said "what?"

JMVHO

 

[terryl965]

I agree with the riisng sidekick if you are a little older but if you are still young it can be devastrating when delivered under the chin.
Just my two cents and a nickel to boot.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

The scooping side kick or "rising" side kick can put too much strain in areas of the knee.

I agree entirely, it doesnt feel too great to do hard and fast!

 

[Hollywood1340]

I've found the rising sidekick is easily blocked by someone who knows what they are doing. When chambering horizontaly, the end of your kick is your foot, not your shin/knee. We consider rising sidekicks to be sloppy is asked for a side kick.

 

[DArnold]

I hope you (and anyone else reading this) can take the time to offer your thoughts on this.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who studies karate (the Soryu style). He made the argument that a sidekick is more damaging when the motion is not only OUT but UP as well. The example he gave was the floating rib target or even the area right underneath your armpit. He thought you should get lower against an equally tall opponent by bending your knees before kicking. Your lower starting position lets you still shoot out the sidekick in a straight path, but the trajectory is such that you will strike at an upward angle.

I have no strong opinions either way, but I'd love to hear what some hardcore TKD people think. Thanks in advance.

Sorry it took so long to reply but I have been traveling quite a bit lately. Just got back from the ICTF championships up in Edmonton Canada. Great group of people.

I just wrote a long dissertation (and erased it) on how when you angle a kick up you loose power. However, you did not ask about power but your comment was "damaging"

"Damaging" depends on many factors:

- Power: The amount of power needed to produce the amount of damage you are looking for (Kill, disable, stun...)

- Focus: Hitting a vital spot vs. a protected area

- Tool: using the proper tool on the target

- Practice: Students become good/dangerious with what they practice(what they like)this sounds like it is one of his favorites (However, not a silver bullet)

The power of a technique is not what always determins if it is "Damaging". As my instructor taught me, "A bad side kick can hurt you" So in order to intelligently discuss this with you I would first have to know in what contect are you using "Damaging"

A) I would agree that it is "Damaging" as it is a good trick for getting around the front arm just as many TKD students learn to use thrusting side kick to go around the front arm, or many other tricks.

B) From a power standpoint the angle of the kick is not as damagind as a lower kick as you loose power when you vector. However, based on the target, this argument is irrelivant as these targets are easily damaged by a great or bad technique. So if I kick you in the groin with a kick that contains 100 p.s.i. or 1000 p.s.i. the rusults will pretty much be the same.

 

[crushing]

I think you have the potential to develop more power the more inline you sidekick comes with base or rooting foot. Will that cause more damage? It's possible, but that really comes down to the target. You can deliver a lot more power to a poor choice of a target and not do as much damage as less power to a good target.

View attachment 9155

 

[DArnold]

I think you have the potential to develop more power the more inline you sidekick comes with base or rooting foot. Will that cause more damage? It's possible, but that really comes down to the target. You can deliver a lot more power to a poor choice of a target and not do as much damage as less power to a good target.

View attachment 9155

If you wish to discuss power your pictures are missing many vairables:
- what is the tangential of the target?
- what is the trajectory of the tool? (as no kick goes along the lines you have drawn)
- the angle of the supporting leg may vary?
...

Many, many more variables that do not give one quick answer.