Conversation on Staff Applications

[punisher73]

Good question because I was never given a guide on staff height. In the school we trained with staffs of various sizes (not by choice if you didn't have your own). My own personal guide is a range.
- Staff should not be shorter than your height
- Staff cannot touch the ground when you hold the middle of the staff and raise your arm parallel to the ground. There should be a few inches (1or 2) between the ground and the bottom of the staff.

Good question because I was never given a guide on staff height. In the school we trained with staffs of various sizes (not by choice if you didn't have your own). My own personal guide is a range.
- Staff should not be shorter than your height
- Staff cannot touch the ground when you hold the middle of the staff and raise your arm parallel to the ground. There should be a few inches (1or 2) between the ground and the bottom of the staff.

Anything within that range should still allow you to flower the staff without issue and to do other techniques.

When the staff is too short then the range becomes too short in a bad way, like trying to block a swing or attack, Your opponent's staff only to have it go under there staff. When the staff is too high then it causes problems with the lower "upper cut" type swings and "paddle your boat" movement. My son was having difficulty in performing one of the techniques so I told him to think like he's rowing a boat and that seemed to work. Not sure if that works for other people. Below is the "paddle your boat" motion. If your staff is tool long then this motion becomes troublesome when the stance level changes causing the staff to hit the ground. It becomes less of an issue as you get used to the size of the staff you are using.

If it's too short like the Jo Staff in Aikido then you end up missing the staff when you use a similar "paddle your boat" technique. Making sure your staff doesn't hit the ground when doing techniques like the one below is more important than the flowering. We don't do a lot of flowering but it's a good measurement of when a staff is too long.

View attachment 26777

Thanks! Sometimes when I watched a Jow Ga staff set it looked like a 6 foot staff and other times it looked longer and never saw anything that said the length.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks! Sometimes when I watched a Jow Ga staff set it looked like a 6 foot staff and other times it looked longer and never saw anything that said the length.

No problem. Do you do any staff training?

 

[punisher73]

Not at the moment, but will be part of the curriculum in the future. Jow Ga has interested me and I am in the process of learning Siu Fok fu right now.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not at the moment, but will be part of the curriculum in the future. Jow Ga has interested me and I am in the process of learning Siu Fok fu right now.

Are you teaching yourself? If so, how ist that going. Just curious about what it's like for someone who learning the form on their own and the type of challenges you are running into.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I dont know if its applciable but there is a scene in the man in the high castle where the japanese ambassador kills someone with their staff. (going to say its a jo) No idea how apt it is but its at least a intresting screen performace of it i have seen, its not like a long flashy scene either its like done in mineute. The pre amble is he is always doing forms with the staff in the show.


My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights". I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent. I think we all know who i am talking about with the last one. Actually wading through as fidning the non performance **** and then reliable videos on it is a slog. I did the search a several days ago, and the first thing mentioned in the video i found was "break the staff", i have yet to look since. (yes i did immediately turn it off)

 

[JowGaWolf]

My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights". I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent.

I know what you mean with this, I had to shift through a bunch of that as well. So much of what is on youtube is dedicated to the entertainment performance of martial arts. So far the best search term to use is "2 man staff set" or "two man staff set" This will cut down the nonsense. If you do a Japanese or Korean martial arts, then you may have to do some some translation of movement. By that you may have to see what is going on in staff applications from other systems and try to determine if that movement translate into the Japanese or Korean staff system. If you are looking for Japanese or Korean Staff techniques, then I would recommend sticking with the traditional techniques.

You'll also need to get rid of anything flashy that you see, like spin-arounds and any flowering that is more than 2 revolutions/ cycles / spins. Stay Away from Jake Mace's stuff. Look for the older stuff and pay attention to the boring looking stuff. There are a lot of people who are good with the flashy staff stuff and the cool fight scenes, but in reality I don't think staff fights lasted long unless it was a stalemate where 2 fighters were cautious about entering into a fight. What I'm finding out with my own training is that there is very little room for screwing up. The staff combos are like punching combos.
1 punch
1-2 punch
1-2-3 punch.

1 staff strike
1-2 staff strike
1-2-3 staff strike.

Yeah anyone who is strong enough to break a staff with their hands either doesn't need one or that's the worse staff in the world and it came with termites.

Once you find a couple of good basic strikes then you can start exploring them from the perspective of just seeing what happens and not so much trying to figure things out. You'll know when you have the correct application because it's simple, direct, and you should be able to feel the effect even if you are moving slowly. I kind of think of it like standing on one leg. Even if someone pushes you gently you should still be able to feel that loss of balance and know that it will be worse if someone pushes you hard while standing on one leg.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My one gripe with youtube (as i am trying to look into this topic), is the fake "staff fights". I want actual techniques for fighting from an actual martial art not the clickbait nonsense that is everywhere or the "actual kung fu fight" video which is clearly fradulent.

If you want to see actual fights with the staff, then your best bet is videos of Dog Brothers gatherings. However I haven't found any compilations of just the fights with staff, so you'll probably have to watch a bunch of fights with one-handed sticks to get to the bouts with staff or other weapons. For example, this one has a staff fight starting at about 5min35sec into the video:

 

[isshinryuronin]

You'll also need to get rid of anything flashy that you see, like spin-arounds and any flowering that is more than 2 revolutions/ cycles / spins

In the Okinawan bo katas I know, EVERY move is either a strike or block, done with power. Out of the 300-350 moves total, there is one jump and spin combo and two other spin moves with strong strikes immediately coming out of the turn. Also, all footwork/stepping is involved directly in blocking or striking.

pay attention to the boring looking stuff.

Great advice. Not just for MA, but life in general. Often, the plain and simple, well done, is the most elegant.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If you want to see actual fights with the staff, then your best bet is videos of Dog Brothers gatherings. However I haven't found any compilations of just the fights with staff, so you'll probably have to watch a bunch of fights with one-handed sticks to get to the bouts with staff or other weapons. For example, this one has a staff fight starting at about 5min35sec into the video:

I dont even nesssasirly want fight videos, i just dont want the previously mentioned toft which is "simply break the staff in two". there is more sources in japanese due to Jodo being a thing, but i dont know japanese.

Imagine if you taught firearms to people and your first statement was "first catch the bullet with your teeth then.." thats the equal here.

its a good fight source though.

@JowGaWolf Lucky for me i found some decent channels that cover quaterstaff, so simply applying it from there should do me. Or at least know looking through HEMA sources is the best bet for this one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@JowGaWolf Lucky for me i found some decent channels that cover quaterstaff, so simply applying it from there should do me. Or at least know looking through HEMA sources is the best bet for this one.

HEMA is a good reference too as they are actually interested in how the techniques work and how to apply them. There focus is in the right place. Some of the things are similar to what you see with Kung Fu and Japanese spear, but some of the complete opposite and backwards. Like I would look a certain HEMA staff technique and think. "Are you trying to get killed?" and they would look at a certain Kung Fu staff technique and say the same thing.

I don't think they can be mixed or blended even though they share similar principles. HEMA stances lead to HEMA techniques Kung Fu Stances Lead to Kung Fu Techniques.

Do you know what HEMA staffs are made of?

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

I don't think they can be mixed or blended even though they share similar principles. HEMA stances lead to HEMA techniques Kung Fu Stances Lead to Kung Fu Techniques.

I've found a decent balance of blending hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawa staff techniques and stances. I and many of them have the same techniques but done in a stylistic manor or with a slightly different objective.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've found a decent balance of blending hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawa staff techniques and stances. I and many of them have the same techniques but done in a stylistic manor or with a slightly different objective.

That's good to know. I would have thought the footwork + hand positioning would have caused some problems. Or is it similarities between long footwork and short footwork. So the spear techniques would have similar footwork and the short techniques would have similar footwork. Or does none of that affect the swing, or is it that certain techniques are affected?

 

[JowGaWolf]

The effects of Stance Height with some of the techniques.
These are just short clips of me and my son training. These are walk through lessons that usually occur whenever I notice something, That's when I share with my son what I'm discovering. This is so he can "Discover at the same time with me." He hurt his shoulder again pulled muscle not joint issue, which is why he's holding the staff strange in these clips it is also why I don't go through a faster demo of the technique.

This technique is like sticky poles, but can also be done with a popping technique. I'm not showing the actual striking technique here as the lesson is mainly about the importance of staff height. (It was only a matter of time, that I start talking about stances lol). I apologize for the brown sticks against brown grass. Not good for contrasts. Didn't think about it. I try pretty much show the same as if I was teaching it and it sometimes makes me forget about the other important stuff like background. Not sure how this will show up on mobile devices.

What you are seeing in the video.
I found myself screwing up with the entry and saw that my stance was to high which caused me to take a direct line into the staff.

Problem: Sometimes people point staffs directly at you almost horizontally. This means they are taking a direct line to poking you with the end of the staff or spear. It's the fastest way to the target. An idea opponent would be kind enough to hold their spear at a 45 so you can strike the spear. There's Pro's and Con's to it but the fix is to adjust your stance.

Where to watch: Watch the end of my staff and the end of my son's staff. My foot position and my stance height, both change accordingly.

0:00 - I try to enter by moving my son's staff away by using "Sticky Staff" (similar to sticky hands, Chi Sao, etc) When I stand up high my footwork takes a linear path towards my son, the staff quickly losses contact, and I basically walk into the end of the staff.

0:25 - You see me lower my stance at the same distance and you'll notice that my staff makes more contact, towards my son's hands. I increase my stance and there's less.

The biggest thing that I notice is that it was easier for me to defend from that position. The lower stance also moves naturally offline the center line which is good for any attempts to stab me. In application. I would pop my son's staff off center line as I move off center line. If I keep my staff over my son's staff so I can knock it down in the event my son tries to swing the staff at me. The sooner I can position my feet the sooner I can launch my strike. I often find out that many of the long fist and staff / spear techniques are most effective at certain stance heights. Stand up to tall, creates mobility issues, you will become a bigger target, and some of the techniques will fail because the stance is too high.

I will have to get my son to the point where he can demo it. The force that I would need to pop the first strike will probably be to much for him at this point, so I'll have to wait for his muscles to become stronger.

With the "Sticky Staff" (that's the term that was taught to me) it's important to put downward pressure on your opponents staff. Not too much but just enough so that he will focus on lifting this staff against the pressure and not on the strike that's about to occur. If you don't give your opponent something to think about first then he will worry about the strike first.

The same issue occurs when popping the staff out of the way. You'll either knock the staff out of his hands, or the force of the pop will force him to think about holding on to the staff first and not about getting hit in the face first.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Do you know what HEMA staffs are made of?

Rattan is a pretty cheap soft wood for training weapons with, so thats sort of domiant globally, but they tend to be Ash, oak or some form of hardwood. (and any staff meant for fighting should be hard wood, the Jo's i have seen have been hardwood) But at the same time, most HEMA schools jsut armour you up and do it with a thinner staff as far as i have seen.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Just went looking for it, this is the video:

I didnt get past the "break the staff part". Also, your probbly not going to get a chance before they bring the staff back in for another thrust honestly. (grabbing it is in anti spear doctrine, its just difficult to do)

Addednum: Which immediately discredited everything he had to say further on the matter honestly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just went looking for it, this is the video:

I didnt get past the "break the staff part". Also, your probbly not going to get a chance before they bring the staff back in for another thrust honestly. (grabbing it is in anti spear doctrine, its just difficult to do)

Addednum: Which immediately discredited everything he had to say further on the matter honestly.

yeah there are a lot of things wrong that video. I don't know why some teacher feel the need to do stuff like that just to get people interested in their system. I watched 2 minutes after the breaking of the staff and the rest is garbage too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the other night, I was looking at HEMA stuff and I was surprised to see that one of the techniques they were talking about was named similar to the one I refer to as "Paddle the boat." The technique being described was named after the Gondola

Time to ask a Jow Ga Sifu what's the proper name. I'm curious.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

That's good to know. I would have thought the footwork + hand positioning would have caused some problems. Or is it similarities between long footwork and short footwork. So the spear techniques would have similar footwork and the short techniques would have similar footwork. Or does none of that affect the swing, or is it that certain techniques are affected?

Hand position is the biggest determining factor and will impact the foot work based on the objective. So spear like techniques are rather similar even if they look stylistically different, since most styles use a long grip. Side note: i love the HEMA extended thrust. Training some of the sliding grip transitions more typical of jo work in japanese arts like aikijutsu and shinto muso ryu is really helpful for transitioning between the stylistic differences of hema, chinese, japanese, filipino, and okinawan.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Training some of the sliding grip transitions more typical of jo work

Speaking of that, i cant do that for the life of me. I have tried to do it so many times i just cant get my head around it. And its the first form in the SMR omote book i got. In hindsight should have gotten the AJKF Jodo handbook, might have served me better looking at the PDF of it. (it includes Kihon and how to hold the thing*)

Anyway, i just cant comprehend how to withdraw the staff from the first strike to the head. From memory i belive its a thrust, but i have a equal belief its a over the head strike. (would need to drudge up the manual and cant find a PDF of it in english) Fricition is just the issue as far as i recall. (granted its not with a jo)


*Apparntly no picturres so far, am skimming it at this moment, but at least it would give me a glossary of terms to go and look up videos on how to do it.

 

[BrendanF]

Speaking of that, i cant do that for the life of me. I have tried to do it so many times i just cant get my head around it. And its the first form in the SMR omote book i got. In hindsight should have gotten the AJKF Jodo handbook, might have served me better looking at the PDF of it. (it includes Kihon and how to hold the thing*)

Anyway, i just cant comprehend how to withdraw the staff from the first strike to the head. From memory i belive its a thrust, but i have a equal belief its a over the head strike. (would need to drudge up the manual and cant find a PDF of it in english) Fricition is just the issue as far as i recall. (granted its not with a jo)


*Apparntly no picturres so far, am skimming it at this moment, but at least it would give me a glossary of terms to go and look up videos on how to do it.

I'm not a shindo muso ryu guy - they use jo which should be short enough to feel the length during that transition. The sliding between hands is at the heart of their kihon though. I study the art SMR branched from; there is some similarity in our bojutsu. We have a 'warm-up' drill that allows a student to practice that transition. Then it's just practice. I have sweaty palms and occasionally struggle, but with practice it becomes pretty straightforward.

Perhaps these will help