Kosho Shorei Ryu

[BlackCatBonz]

1. Also, if my memory serves me correctly Kempo and Kenpo, although the same, one is a Japanese translation were the other is Chinese.




2.Also for anyone interested I recently found this site
Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International
http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/index.html

It appears to have a lot of information that I have been looking for.

Thank you to all that gave me informat

1. this is incorrect......both are japanese .....they are just english phonetic representations. some people spell it with an m....some spell it with an n. which one is correct? neither.....it's spelled 拳法

2. the link in my sig line goes directly to this site.......which is where, i believe, i tried to direct you. It's Bruce Juchnik Hanshi's webpage.

 

[kroh]

I have more understanding of the language and the culture than you know. I apologize if I offended you by my possible improper usage that was not my intension.

But I based my definition on the following,

Karate - (lit Empty Hand) The Okinawan form of self-defense that was introduced to Japan in the early 20th century. Today there are countless most of which trace their roots to one or two traditional Okinawan lineages of Karate-jitsu, Shuri-te and Naha-te. (Tuttle Dictionary of Martial Arts)

And the fact that I generally see Kempo/Kenpo and Karate used interchangeably. I admit I did not research that further to see if that was correct or not. If for no other reason than that I suppose I could be referred to as a "Lazy American"

However this lead me to believe that Kempo/Kenpo comes from Karate much the same way Chen Style Tai chi came from Zhang San Feng. But I could be wrong in this assumption.

Also a Japanese style such as Karate-jitsu is fundamentally different than Karate-do

"Jitsu" is a war art were a "do" is not

Also, if my memory serves me correctly Kempo and Kenpo, although the same, one is a Japanese translation were the other is Chinese.

As for the class, no I have not yet checked it out. Life became incredibly busy in the last few weeks with no sign of letting up soon.

But with that being said, I have decided that sense my original question about Kosho Shorei Ryu started a fight between two people about the Character of James Mitose, and this seems to be degenerating into a fight about Karate not being Kempo/Kenpo, I would like to request, if this is possible, to have this thread closed.

I am looking to learn, not fight. Fighting is easy; conversation is, apparently, hard.


Also for anyone interested I recently found this site
Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International
http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/index.html

It appears to have a lot of information that I have been looking for.

Thank you to all that gave me informat

Xue Sheng, Sorry about that post...now that I go back and re-read it it does kind of come across as snobish...but the post was in no way aimed toward you. Many times in a America, many a would be fly by night Sokey Dokey use many terms interchangably to name their hodge podge arts without proper foundation in the language or the culture from which they came. When I listed the useage of the words i didn't mean that you were using them incorrectly or that you were lazy, I was refering to the many self appointed masters who didn't bother to check it out. I just posted the terms as a way to differentiate the two.

[open mouth][insert foot] Sorry the post came across the way it did[/choking vigoursly][/close mouth].

Still, Kosho seems to be a great art and if you stear clear of the politics, alot of fun. Hope you give it a chance.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. this is incorrect......both are japanese .....they are just english phonetic representations. some people spell it with an m....some spell it with an n. which one is correct? neither.....it's spelled 拳法

2. the link in my sig line goes directly to this site.......which is where, i believe, i tried to direct you. It's Bruce Juchnik Hanshi's webpage.

Thank you, apparently my memory does not serve me correctly, I must be getting old.

I have never seen the character for Kenpo/Kempo before. And the Chinese for that is “quan fan” not Kempo, I stand, or sit, as the case may be, corrected


I thank you for the link.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Walt

No problem, I may be overly sensitive, based on how this post began, and continues to edge conflict.

I feel that it is best that the administrator either close this or move it to Kempo.

Thanks

 

[kenpojujitsu]

he never passed himself off as a catholic priest......jeez

you're just another one of the malcontents that spews off about something that they have no idea about.

http://www.kempojutsu.net/mitoseaikido.html

Get an idea for yourself before you spew off

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MOD NOTE:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Thank you,
MJ :asian:
MT Moderator

 

[Monadnock]

So wait -- Did Mitose have any valid lineage to Kosho Ryu through some distant Japanese relative or was that some scam?

I read in another post here on MT that he only studied some Okinawan art for a brief period.

On a side note, it looks as if Bruce Juchnik "spent 2 to 3 years visiting with the incarcerated Mitose. Juchnik states that Mitose passed him all the teachings of the Old Pine Tree Style-Kosho Ryu Kempo and awarded him a master ranking asking him to keep the system alive. With this Mr. Juchnik claims Great Grandmastership of that line"

http://www.unitedkosho.com/history.htm

So, it almost looks as if someone inherited a fraudulent lineage after 2-3 years of training through prison visits?

Can anyone point me to a valid link from Kosho ryu in Japan to here in the U.S.?

Thanks,

 

[tshadowchaser]

Side note if anyone notice i moved this thread to the kenpo area from the general because I feel it is a better area for the threads discussion
now back to the questions and answeres

 

[kenpojujitsu]

There never was Kosho Shorei Ryu in Japan.
Supposedly, the Mitose ancestors were a Samurai clan by the name of Yushida. But there is no record of them because they were forced to change thier name. The family temple, where Mitose received his training, was either destroyed or just lost out in the wilderness.

It does appear that he did get some karate/kenpo training and did train in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Ho wmuch DZR is not really known. Thus the Kenpo-Jujitsu name of his style.

As far as Juchnik is concerned:
Obviously, Mitose was not allowed to bring visitors to the prison and teach them secret Samurai fighting arts. So Juchnik received verbal instruction from Mitose during his frequent visits.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1. There never was Kosho Shorei Ryu in Japan.
2. Supposedly, the Mitose ancestors were a Samurai clan by the name of Yushida. But there is no record of them because they were forced to change thier name. The family temple, where Mitose received his training, was either destroyed or just lost out in the wilderness.

3.It does appear that he did get some karate/kenpo training and did train in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Ho wmuch DZR is not really known.

4.Thus the Kenpo-Jujitsu name of his style.

As far as Juchnik is concerned:
Obviously, Mitose was not allowed to bring visitors to the prison and teach them secret Samurai fighting arts. So Juchnik received verbal instruction from Mitose during his frequent visits.

1. this has not been proven or disproven
2. i dont think i have read anything by mitose where he stated himself, that his family was of samurai lineage.
the name of the family you mention is "Yoshida"
3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it.
4. this is more BS.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think much of this has been talked about in a few other threads here if you care to due a search

 

[kroh]

It is unfortunate that while interesting (better than a soap opera), the politics came in and confused the issue.

Regards,
Walt

 

[kenpojujitsu]

1. this has not been proven or disproven
2. i dont think i have read anything by mitose where he stated himself, that his family was of samurai lineage.
the name of the family you mention is "Yoshida"
3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it.
4. this is more BS.

1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan. And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.

2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories. And it was just a typing error with the name.

3. I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back. There used to be several of them on-line.
I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around. Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was. Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.

4. There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.

What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose. Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me. Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.

But that is same kind of mindless "cult mentality" Mitose relied on to get money from his followers and get them to do his bidding. It Terry Lee had taken some time to see the holes in the stories and not blindly follow him in this way, he would not have killed those people.

People here think the same way. Mitose is great and his detractors are just being political. That's kind of scary, but I guess it's ok. Just be careful when they start to pass the koolaid around.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

"3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it"

By looking at his web site, he's just another one of the Mitose Clan that can best be described as a "koolaid drinker". You will not get accurate information from someone like this when thier entire existnce is centered around worshipping Mitose and making sure everyone knows "what great man he was".

 

[eyebeams]

1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan.

The fact that he did go to Japan is something that is now apparently confirmed with documentation. the Sanjosekenpo site apparently has relevant scans. This doesn't mean he ever learned martial arts there. There has been some effort t identify Mitose's temple as Shakainji on Mount Kinkai, but this is tenuous at best.

And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.

Untrue. Kempo is a term that appears in historical documents, including the Bugei Ryuha Daitijen. "Kenpo" is an alternate romanization that is nowadays not favoured, because (among other things) it confuses that word with a completely separate governmental usage (that *is* spelled "kenpo" when conventionally romanized).

2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories. And it was just a typing error with the name.

True. Lots of it was derivative, but it's hard to tell whether or not it's because folktales are like that or he was nicking them from somewhere.

3. I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back. There used to be several of them on-line.
I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around. Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was. Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.

This is kind of wacky. If I founded a style there would be more photos of me casually training with martial artists outside my lineage than in it. Hawaai's martial arts community was tiny, so it is likely that everybody trained with everybody else at one time or another.

Interestingly, the Charles Lee Koshoryu lineage is still asociated with DZR Jujutsu through the AJI, so it's hardly true that there is intentional distance.

4. There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.

There's not much evidence about anything, and in my limited research, I've come to think that lots of the conventional wisdom of both sides is wrong. For example, peoplehave aid that Mitose only taught Naihanchi, but aside from the fact that his Naihanchi was apparently unconventional, I've traced evidence of one or two other forms: One called Henshuho and, I now suspect, Hansuki (this from Karaho GM Sam Kuoha's statement here that he abandoned it to remove the remaining Japanese legacy).

On the other hand, having reviewed a copy of What is True Self-Defence, I have to say that the book looks heavily skewed toward Mitose's desire to get out of prison and present a version of yoga. What's in there is accessible through prior sources. What Is Self Defence also has several sequences copied from earlier sources.

I honestly have no idea what James Mitose taught or where he got it from, and neither do you.

What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose. Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me. Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.

I seriously doubt anybody is saying James Mitose was a trustworthy or nice man. But here's a secret: Lies and distortions infest virtually every martial art, esecially during the introduction of Asian arts to the West. EPAK has its oddities with Parker. The bujinkan has all kinds of strangeness in its narrative that it desperately buries in an atempt to join the Western koryu community. Karate and TKD are full of revered figures who began as "airplane masters," and Jigoro Kano founded a little thing called judo when he was in his 20s. And let's not even start with Chinese arts, many of which were the hobbies of crooks and traitors.

What's left is a combination of historical interest and a need to learn effective techniques. These two elements should be divorced, but people don't do it. Instead, they have arguments on the internet where they use argumentative tactics that have little role in the creation of a legitimate history. Rules of logic and academic standards are not the same thing, but that doesn't excuse ignoring primary sources and informants, either.

I don't practice kenpo that has anything to do with these lineages, but it interests me all the same. But history isn't amenable to reductionist methods. Things happen in roundabout ways all the time, and the fact is we will never know much more han the fact that James Mitose was an eccentric crook who taught martial arts. That's hardly lauding him, but at least it's accurate and conservative as a statement.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan. And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.

2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories. And it was just a typing error with the name.

3. I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back. There used to be several of them on-line.
I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around. Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was. Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.

4. There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.

What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose. Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me. Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.

But that is same kind of mindless "cult mentality" Mitose relied on to get money from his followers and get them to do his bidding. It Terry Lee had taken some time to see the holes in the stories and not blindly follow him in this way, he would not have killed those people.

People here think the same way. Mitose is great and his detractors are just being political. That's kind of scary, but I guess it's ok. Just be careful when they start to pass the koolaid around.

produce evidence of this......and i mean more than pictures of mitose standing next to okazaki.
the fact that you made this statement shows that you have little understanding of the meaning or origin of the words.....which is typical.

 

[kroh]

OK kenpojujitsu, So what you are saying is that Mitose is a crook, swindler, liar, cheat, and all around bad guy. OK. We get it.

So...does that mean those of us trying to learn Kosho Ryu should just give it up and come study under some one you do approve of? I also practice JKD. It is an effective form of fighting with very practical methods of tearing down an opponent. Should I not practice this method because I think Bruce Lee was an A.D.D. riddled adrenaline junky whose movies sucked (there goes my fan club membership)? The guy never received any ranking from his instructor (never even finished the training!) and then after a little research went and started his own style.

I can rattle off several martial arts that claim "divine inspiration" in their lineage. Some brother back in the day saw snow fall off of a willow tree and suddenly he is a master of fighting because now he fights like he has ten pounds of snow melting on him. Asian martial histories are riddled with mythology. If we looked hard enough into your lineage we could probably find a joker or two in the deck that you would rather us not see. If we found one, would you stop your training in favor of some one reputable?

Now that you have found all this "evidence" of Mitose being a crook...Can you give us any insight into what his "followers" have done since he got snagged? What has Kosho become versus what he tried to make it? Is Kosho Ryu effective in its martial strategies and if so can you give proof of pro's or con's of the style?

You seem to be a clever investigator and have obviously done some home work. We get that he was not a nice guy... But what else have you turned up?

Regards,
Walt

 

[Monadnock]

How many times did Mr. Juchnik go to the prison for visits with Mitose over the 3+ years before getting Menkyo certification? Are there logs and scans of this too?

Is this short training period why Kosho claims to be an art based on principle? Because there really wasn't enough time to go through a lot of techniques and kata? Are there other styles incorporated into Kosho for filler?

How old is the mon for Kosho ryu and who developed it?

Just a few more questions and I'm done with this mess. I don't care too much for the political stuff either but it's in every style.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

How many times did Mr. Juchnik go to the prison for visits with Mitose over the 3+ years before getting Menkyo certification? Are there logs and scans of this too?

Is this short training period why Kosho claims to be an art based on principle? Because there really wasn't enough time to go through a lot of techniques and kata? Are there other styles incorporated into Kosho for filler?

How old is the mon for Kosho ryu and who developed it?

Just a few more questions and I'm done with this mess. I don't care too much for the political stuff either but it's in every style.

you should really give hanshi a call.
he would gladly give you the answers to those questions and more regarding his training.........anything coming from anyone else would be hearsay.

some people seem to think that a martial arts system based on principles is unheard of.

 

[kelly keltner]

1. If Mitose were in Japan at this late date, learning this art, then there would most definately be a record of it. It is doubtful that he ever went to Japan. And there certainly is no indication of this being a Japanese style. The term Kenpo came into use in Okinawa after the time period that this art supposedly came into exustence in Japan. The Japanese did not use the term Kenpo until Shorinji Kempo came about after WWII. Kenpo-Jujitsu is just not a term used to describe martial arts in Japan.

2. Mitiose did talk about Samurai histories. And it was just a typing error with the name.

3. I have seen photos of Henry Okazaki with a group of students with Mitose standing in the back. There used to be several of them on-line.
I assume that atfer his convictions the Okazaki family would want to distance themselves from Mitose and not admit he was around. Or he was just another face in the crowd and they didn't really know who he was. Regardless, I have seen some evidence of his training with Okazaki.

4. There is more evidence to support this than any of the claims made by Mitose or his loyal followers.

What really blows my mind ishow,after being convicted of the murder conspiracy and all the evidents of the cons and swindles he committed, that people still fall all over themselves to defend Mitose. Why anyone would accept his word on anything is beyond me. Especially when there is no eveidence to support any of the claims.

But that is same kind of mindless "cult mentality" Mitose relied on to get money from his followers and get them to do his bidding. It Terry Lee had taken some time to see the holes in the stories and not blindly follow him in this way, he would not have killed those people.

People here think the same way. Mitose is great and his detractors are just being political. That's kind of scary, but I guess it's ok. Just be careful when they start to pass the koolaid around.

HMMMMmmm