Kosho Ryu?

[LegLockGuy]

I was wondering a couple things about Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo. I heard there aren't any techniques. What does that mean? Does it cover all the ranges? (striking, grappling, clinching) What's the striking like? And how does sparring go in a Kosho Ryu school? (I know it depends, but usually whats the standard)

 

[BlackCatBonz]

use the search function and see what you come up with.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Kosho Ryu as I am studying it is a branch of Kenpo that split off before the techniques as we know them were invented and systematized.

It covers all ranges, and has (in my opinion) better weapons training that Tracy or Parker. Suffers from the same 'ground blindness' as the rest of Kenpo.

I've never actually seen sparring in the KR school I visit, though my teacher spars quite well with me one on one.

Not a bad system. Not bad at all. If you can imagine Kenpo and Aikido hooking up in a bar after a concert...the illegitimate love child would be Kosho.

 

[kosho]

Here is some info: maybe you have seen this or what not. But to truly see kosho you need to go to a seminar with Bruce Juchnik Hanshi, or Pat Kelly Sensei... or Larry Krastburger sensei ( spelling?)
There is ground work in Kosho Pat kelly Sensei showed some of this at a seminar he did at My Dojo a few months ago. hope this helped...
Kosho

​

The Sho Chiku Bai Mon (Pine, Bamboo, Plum Crest) is the basic foundation of study for all Kosho Ryu practitioners, and for that matter, all traditional martial artists. The study of the mon is known as Mon Gaku. The Sho Chiku Bai crest of Kosho Ryu has elements that are over 750 years old. Crests that are developed in modern times do not have the roots and historical significance represented in the Sho Chiku Bai.
There are three ways of looking at the crest and its meaning. Interpretation is taught in order of importance as follows.
The spiritual and philosophical study is most important. This study has a tendancy to keep the practitioner in line with his environment and himself in relation to any potential conflict. We must understand that we are responsible for everything we do as human beings.
The second representation is that of the physical study. This study deals with avoidance of direct physical conflict with any individual. We can manipulate either body movement or body position so that we may escape harm. This is the highest level of study in Kosho relating to the physical arts: to do no harm.
The third representation is the study of destructive arts. These arts are utilized only when there is no alternative. The study of this particular aspect of Kosho Ryu is the most important, and yet the least important.
Kosho Ryu is a philosophical art. We must understand that it stems from the study of Zen. Zen Buddhism is the study of who we are in relation to nature, ourselves, those around us, and our environment. The philosophy of Zen is awareness of everything around us and ourselves. Thus, the importance of the study of the Sho Chiku Bai.​

[SIZE=+2]The Hand Postures[/SIZE]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kigan: Praying Hands Position[/FONT]​

First Representation: The right hand (representing the physical) and the left hand (representing the spiritual) are placed together for peace and avoidance of conflict.
Second Representation: Escaping Arts
Third Representation: Skeletal Strikes
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kaishu: Open Hand Position [/FONT]​

First Representation: The right hand and left hand are placed together in the shape of a mountain. Look for the good in man as you would see a mountain from a distance, without nitpicking flaws and imperfections.
Second Representation: Folding Arts
Third Representation: Internal Strikes
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hoken: Covered Fist Position[/FONT]​

First Representation: The right hand (representing physical skills) is covered by the left hand (representing spiritual skills). One should temper his actions with morality, avoid conflict, and hide his weapons.
Second Representation: Muscular Strikes
Third Representation: Total Domination​

[SIZE=+2]Pine, Bamboo, and Plum[/SIZE]​

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sho (Matsuda): Pine [/FONT]​

Evergreens live long, young, and healthy lives. The pine symbolizes faithful friendship which resists all trials. The pine represents the religion of Taoism. The Japanese people use pine needles for ornaments on Christmas and New Year.
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chiku (Take): Bamboo [/FONT]​

Bamboo represents Honesty. When you cut into bamboo, you find emptiness inside. Nothing evil is hidden within. Also, Kosho Ryu practitioners remain ever empty, and open to additional knowledge, never becoming full of themselves and their accomplishments. The bamboo is the symbol of the application of discipline and the man who remains loyal in all events. Bamboo represents the Japanese religion of Buddhism.
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bai (Baika): Plum Flower[/FONT]​

The Japanese plum flower stands for beauty, nobility, and courage. This is because the plum flower puts forth blossoms while the snow is still on the ground. The plum tree flowers before all the others. The Japanese people love the plum fruit. They especially eat plums when they are sick. Plum represents the Japanese religion of Shintoism.​

[SIZE=+3]The Octogon[/SIZE]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]​

The Octagon is perhaps the most important aspect of the mon in the study of the physical arts.
First Representation: The Eightfold Path of Buddhism:
Right Speech
Right Understanding
Right Means of Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Meditation
Right Action
Right Intention
Right Awareness
Second Representation: Mon Gaku, the Study of the Crest
Third Representation: Hakkakkei Densho Gaku, Ethical Study of the Octogon
Juchnik Hanshi goes into great detail on the Octogon, the Eightfold Path, Mon Gaku, and Hakkakkei Densho Gaku in his first book, The Last Disciple, pages 95 to 171. He relates the philosophies briefly touched upon here to physical arts, strategies and philosophies of solving conflict. This book is strongly recommended to anyone seriously studying Kempo.
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mon Gaku[/FONT]​

The above categories, Energy Collection, Healing Arts, Japanese Yoga, Escaping Arts, Philosophy, Folding Arts, Meditation, and War Arts, are the major areas of study within Kosho Ryu. In each category, the practitioner will find endless study. This is Kempo.
Angle One: Energy Collection
Energy Collection includes, but is not limited to the study of breathing, posture, triangulation of alignments, timing, visualization, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Two: Healing Arts
Healing Arts include, but are not limited to the study of the Five Element Theory, anatomy, physiology, body systems, shiatsu, anma, nutrition, herbology, the study of boshin, bunshin, munshin, and setsushin (diagnostic techniques), posture, energy projection and gathering, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Three: Japanese Yoga
Japanese Yoga includes, but is not limited to the study of stretching and conditioning exercizes designed specifically for the study of the Kosho Ryu martial arts as well as for general fitness, breathing, posture, triangulation of alignments, timing, visualization, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Four: Escaping Arts
Escaping Arts include, but are not limited to the study of breathing, posture, natural movement, triangulation of alignments, timing, jumping patterns, angling, eye training with respect to cutting down negative stimuli in reactions, falling techniques, hearing arts, arts of reading the opponent's intent, the study of metabolism, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Five: Philosophy
Philosophy includes, but is not limited to the study of the mon, and of culture, history, awareness of the physical self, awareness of the spiritual self, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Six: Folding Arts
Folding Arts include, but are not limited to the study of fundamental throwing techniques, fundamental releasing techniques, fundamental ground techniques, breathing, leverage, anatomy, natural movement, entering motion, engagement and disengagement with a moving opponent, kyo and jitsu, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Seven: Meditation
Meditation includes, but is not limited to the study of Shodo (Japanese Brush Calligraphy), Ikebana (Japanese Flower Arranging), Iaido (swordsmanship practice for the sharpening of the mind and spirit), comprehensive understanding of philosophy and energy collection, history, understanding of kokoro, kime (focus), kata, kumite, and bunkai.
Angle Eight: War Arts
War Arts include, but are not limited to the study of strategy, timing, posture and posturing, angling, combative distancing, Kenjutsu (Japanese fencing), Iaijutsu (swordsmanship with combative application done from the sheathed posture), Naginatajutsu (Halberd arts), Sojutsu (Spearmanship), Bojutsu (long staff arts), Jojutsu (short staff arts), Tantojutsu (knife arts), natural movement, vital point striking techniques, muscular strikes, skeletal strikes and bone smashing, nerve strikes, internal strikes, breathing, triangulation of alignments, energy gathering and projection exercizes, kata, kumite, and bunkai.
​

 

[Benjp]

I disagree that kosho ryu has a "ground-blindness". The principles are the same be it on your feet or on your back.

To answer some of the orignal poster's questions:

No techniques means you make it up on the fly. Unlike american kenpo and tracy's (at least from what I've seen), in kosho randoori the attacker doesn't stop after the first punch but continues attacking until "subdued". This usually leads to combat at each of the ranges (striking, grappling, clinching). If the randoori gets out of control, then using the principles of kosho on the ground become very important.

Striking:
Kosho ryu has two primary striking types male and female. Roughly speaking, hard and soft striking.

Sparring:
Kosho ryu does have sparring (at least at my school). We do full contact with protective gear.

Hope this helps,

Ben

 

[selfdefensemaniac]

Only A Question.
If There Is Some Kind Of Diference Between The Kosho Of Thomas Mitose And Bruce Juchnic?
What Is It?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I disagree that kosho ryu has a "ground-blindness". The principles are the same be it on your feet or on your back.

While this is true of all kenpo styles (in theory five swords would work on the ground), I haven't seen many kenpo schools -- kosho or otherwise -- that spend a lot of time training those concepts on the ground. Every style has its strengths and weaknesses. Ground work is ours.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

If you're spending too much time on the ground.....it's not kosho.
ne-waza is no different than the standing stuff........if you wanna work it on the ground, get down there and work it.
The ne-waza in BJJ is identical to that in kodokan judo along with some minor variation.
You don't want to go to the ground anyway.
The principles in Kosho differ greatly than what you see in Aikido.
They are more inline with classical jujutsu, eg. collapsing your opponent at your feet in a way that prevents effective ukemi, as opposed to the large circular throws you see in aikido.

extensive groundwork is over-rated....this isn't a sport.

now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.

I hope not. This is the kenpo forum after all.

 

[LegLockGuy]

If you're spending too much time on the ground.....it's not kosho.
ne-waza is no different than the standing stuff........if you wanna work it on the ground, get down there and work it.
The ne-waza in BJJ is identical to that in kodokan judo along with some minor variation.
You don't want to go to the ground anyway.
The principles in Kosho differ greatly than what you see in Aikido.
They are more inline with classical jujutsu, eg. collapsing your opponent at your feet in a way that prevents effective ukemi, as opposed to the large circular throws you see in aikido.

extensive groundwork is over-rated....this isn't a sport.

now i know i will hear all the yada yada about the importance of groundwork....bring it on.

Oh god, the whole "n0t sp0rt!" arguement. Ground is important anywhere.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Oh god, the whole "n0t sp0rt!" arguement. Ground is important anywhere.

OK, tell me how ground is important when you are a bouncer in a bar.
There are 1/2 a dozen people fighting with broken glass everywhere.
you can lay down on the floor......i will stay standing.
Trust me, I had plenty of guys try to pull me to the floor thinking they were "jiu jitsu" experts.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

OK, tell me how ground is important when you are a bouncer in a bar.
There are 1/2 a dozen people fighting with broken glass everywhere.
you can lay down on the floor......i will stay standing.
Trust me, I had plenty of guys try to pull me to the floor thinking they were "jiu jitsu" experts.

Didn't you just express disdain for the conversation you've just started?

I agree with you and disagree with you. On the one had, yeah -- ground's important. If only so you can counter the stuff ground guys want to use, or at the very least get up if you've been tripped, thrown or sucker punched. Only the very inexperienced believe they'll never wind up on the ground.

Where I do agree is that most people seem to place exaggerated importance on ground skills (I blame MMA). If I take you down and set you up for an arm bar on the street, I impale myself on broken glass. And get road rash off the pavement. And get kicked in the head by your buddy.

When I was bouncing, I'd had 7 years of wrestling and 6 of kenpo. I used more kenpo than I did wrestling, but I still used my wrestling -- mostly to avoid landing hard from a throw or to get up after getting knocked down.

 

[kosho]

If There Is Some Kind Of Diference Between The Kosho Of Thomas Mitose And Bruce Juchnic?

I have never been to a Seminar with Thomas Mitose, and If I ever get the chance to go I will. But from what I under stand most of his trainings where in Kajukenbo I will be training With Hanshi Juchnik in the end of may and will ask him. about it also.
Thanks
kosho

 

[Benjp]

While this is true of all kenpo styles (in theory five swords would work on the ground), I haven't seen many kenpo schools -- kosho or otherwise -- that spend a lot of time training those concepts on the ground. Every style has its strengths and weaknesses. Ground work is ours.

In our school, in randoori if you don't escape then you had better have a good three point lock and be able to keep it. Especially if the uke is our instructor. Without these, you will need good ground work or your toast.

Of course this applies only for the senior ranking students. One of the reasons you'll see little ground work in a school is because most Kosho styles wish to avoid conflict.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Didn't you just express disdain for the conversation you've just started?

I agree with you and disagree with you. On the one had, yeah -- ground's important. If only so you can counter the stuff ground guys want to use, or at the very least get up if you've been tripped, thrown or sucker punched. Only the very inexperienced believe they'll never wind up on the ground.

Where I do agree is that most people seem to place exaggerated importance on ground skills (I blame MMA). If I take you down and set you up for an arm bar on the street, I impale myself on broken glass. And get road rash off the pavement. And get kicked in the head by your buddy.

When I was bouncing, I'd had 7 years of wrestling and 6 of kenpo. I used more kenpo than I did wrestling, but I still used my wrestling -- mostly to avoid landing hard from a throw or to get up after getting knocked down.

bingo

 

[kelly keltner]

wow

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC. He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together. Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight. One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ. During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.

_don flatt

 

[kosho]

Hello,
I went to the same seminar in C.T. to Sensei George Chaber's Dojo. First- great time tons of infomation. What I liked about the Seminar was it was movement and work...Working Controlling, Distance and time of ones body with the movements of the attacker or attackers.
Hanshi showed us some kicking drills and things that have to happen for the body to work at its best power. The use of angles and offense and defense drills. Foot work and Body Mechanics. Octagon drills and movement. Working a blocking drill that set up other things from that point of angles, ETC<ETC<ETC<
Great time.
KOSHO

 

[LegLockGuy]

I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.

Just went to a Seminar by Bruce Juchnik in Conneticut where he shared what he thought about UFC. He said that while it was entertaining from a Martial Arts perspective he thought it was little more than half naked, sweaty men rolling around on the floor together. Speaking of half naked men and the value of ground "game"- spike tv on Thursday had a UFC reality show where 2 of the contestants were drinking and got into an actual fight. One was a Muy Thai guy and the other was BJJ. During the fight the BJJ guy tried an arm bar or a triangle choke and the Muy Thai guy picked him up and slammed his head on the concrete deck - so much for that submission.

_don flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing ever to say. "So much for submission" The guy was a dumbass, you dont pull guard on the street. You go for a takedown and apply the submission/choke.

You've misquoted me, sir. I said, "So much for THAT submission."

I'm not saying submissions are useless but on the street there are inherant problems with utilizing submissions. Specifically, environmental risks, multiple attackers, & no rules or referee.

Environmental risks: Rolling on broken glass, getting slammed into concrete or rocks, sewage grates, buildings, garbage cans, dumpsters, brick walls, used hypodermic needles, and moving vehicles.

Without rules or a referee pain compliance is a bad idea because different people have different pain tolerences. Not to mention that attackers will develop a tolerance for the pain compliance technique the longer it is on. So that leaves us with a choke or a joint lock. In my opinion the choke is superior because if you break an arm or joint you will have legal consequences. Tapping is irrelevant on the street. Let's say you make me tap on the street - who's to say once you let off your lock that I won't attack you? What ever you do on the street you better be ready to finish it. This is what makes chokes superior on the street but then again if you choke someone out it's not really a submission. The very idea of submission carries the idea of a contest. There is one distinction to be made - for law enforcement - restraining a perpetrator until back-up arrives is not only useful but is expected. Better hope that you don't have to wait too long with a resistant perpetrator.

_Don Flatt