I have always been tought with Koryo it is a sidekick to the knee and then the ribcage, but at all tournament we do we get penalized because we do not shoot the second sidekick to the cieling.
Master Stoker, if you don't mind my contribution to this discussion, I would like to share some personal insights into what you are experiencing.
First, you are correct in the proper target of the Taekwondo Poomsae, "Koryo." The double side kicks (in movements #2, and #6) are described as "Arae Yeop Chagi" and "Momtong Yeop Chagi" (Low Side Kick and Body Side Kick). The official intended targets are the knee and the solar plexus.
When I talk to official they tell me I'm wrong but the KKW say the same thing knees and rib cage.
I'd be curious as to what "official" you talked to. The KKW teaches the forms correctly for Taekwondo training, and the WTF approves these same versions for competition with guidlines for judging them. I must admit that I am out of the loop as far as USAT rules since my last seminar was a USTU in 1998, but I used to teach the seminars for the USTU in our area, and I don't see the criteria for proper Taekwondo Poomsae changing.
Just looking at the textbook again shows a different thing altogether. It shows the double knifehand block simply blocking a midsection punch (no trapping involved) then the second side kick to the throat of the opponent.
So much for clarity.
Iceman, you are right that it is often not clear. There are many interpretations that can be applied (IE: trapping), and the Knife-hand guarding block could be used against a punch, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, or even a weapon. The official form simply requires the block of a basic punch, knocking the opponent's punching hand away, then followed by two kicks, outward knife-hand strike to the neck, a punch, and an inward body block.
If trapping the opponent's punching wrist were applied, the side kick to the knee followed by the side kick to the solar plexus is still correct. Then pulling on the opponent's wrist while stepping down to strike the neck with the outward knife-hand, and letting go to execute the reverse punch is one possible application.
Do I make the changes or just keep losing with this poomsae?
Both sides of this question have been addressed here by others, and I think you have mentioned that your students usually win anyway. As others have said, you can train for two target levels, and adjust to the tournament. As I will point out later, I doubt that this one factor of a high kick is really what decides victory in most cases, although it might seem that way.
Do you train for local or national level competition? There is a difference. For local, kick high, for national follow the current WTF, not Kukkiwon, standards.
Wade is right, and this is often the truth of the matter, unfortunately, as others have pointed out that students should be adaptable to change to the circumstances (a good quality by any means). In any event, it's not like we are talking about teaching them to do incorrect or poor techniques. This is an issue of following an approved pattern, and focusing on specific targets. By the rules, the specified targets should be struck, but certainly, if a student is capable of striking higher, it's not like you are teaching them poor Taekwondo skills, but I do understand your dilemma, especially promoting good training habits for self defense.
Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.
Miles
Miles has hit the nail on the head here, and it sheds a light on what
should be done by referees and judges.
Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose.
Kwan Jang made some excellent points in his post, but the above quote is of particular interest here as to why this problem has developed over the years, and one must consider what is to be the future of Taekwondo Competition, and how this might affect the public's perception, new students' expectations, and instructors' decisions to compromise quality for popularity.
If I may wax nostalgic for a moment, some of you senior Taekwondoists can probably identify with this, and the newer students might benefit from hearing about it. When I first began competing in tournaments in the mid 1970's there were not many "Taekwondo" tournaments around (not near as many as today). My friends and I used to travel to find open "Karate" tournaments, "Karate/Kung-Fu" tournaments, or "Karate/Taekwondo" tournaments run by Karate schools. We were often amused at the "weird" stances, hand strikes, and noises made by our opponents in their Okinawan Kata. We would do textbook perfect Taekwondo forms, and never win because the judges graded according to Karate criteria. Of course, the same thing often happened when they came to our tournaments.
The more Taekwondo tournaments that arose in the 80's and 90's (in the U.S.) the more variety of judging we saw. Most older Black Belts and instructors who didn't compete, judged the younger Black Belts, and many of the older judges could not do the splits or kick sky high. The audience was often impressed when a forms competitor kicked to the ceiling, and the judges were too!(and often envious). The audiences cheered, and the judges gave high scores.
The problem being that this was not true to Taekwondo's philosophy, traditional or otherwise. High kicks are a challenge, a show of flexibility, balance, and sometimes strength of the legs. It was not fair to those who were excellent practitioners of Taekwondo, who were flexible enough to kick an opponent's body or face, but could not kick 8 or 9 feet in the air, doing a standing split. It was not fair that a good Taekwondoist should lose forms competition every time, just because the other competitor could do the splits.
This is why organizations like the ATA held "closed tournaments," to control the rules and judging, and why the ITF has its own rule book on competition. It is more fair for the competitors if everyone is judged on the same criteria, by all judges, at every Taekwondo tournament. When Taekwondo made its move into the Olympic arena, this became imperative. You can't have this wide range of "opinions" about what is a good technique, or a good poomsae cause the judging to be all over the board when you are dealing with international competition and Olympic gold is on the line. It is not acceptable when one judge scores a "4," and another gives a "9."
Although I had been judging Taekwondo tournament since 1978, I took my first U.S.T.U./WTF referee seminar (level D-3 certification) in 1992 at Grandmaster Ahn's Classic Tournament in Ohio. I went through 12 levels of certification over the following six years (up to A-1). I officiated at many state and national events, was a USA coach at the U.S. Open, at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in 1995, and I was the Indian State Referee Chairman in 1996.
Many of the referee seminars that I attended were conducted by Grandmaster Kowang Woong Kim (KKW 9th Dan #12) of Kenosha, Wisconsin (
http://ustkda.com/aboutus.aspx), who at that time, was the Chairman of the Referee Certification Committee for the USTU, and had written the WTF rule book (Master Stoker, and Kwan Jang here probably know who I'm talking about). A couple of other key figures I received training from were GM Hong Kong Kim (USTU Vice President, Ohio state president, and 1992 Olympic coach
http://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/grandmasterkim.html ), and GM K.Y. Chai (Indiana state president) of Lafayette, Indiana, and Purdue University Taekwondo Club (
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~tkwondo/instructors.htm).
These officials made it quite clear that WTF approved poomsae competition was to be judged according to accurate targets. At seminars, we reviewed all of the Taegeuk Poomsae for color belts, and Black Belt forms, and specific mention was made, repeatedly, about the punches and kicks being directed at the targets identified in the WTF Poomsae book. Koryo was specifically covered, and every judge and referee was told to knock points off for sky high kicks, and only award points for accurate targets. It is up to the organizing committee, Tournament Director, and Referee chairman to enforce these rules. Judges were told that if they score Poomsae incorrectly, they will be removed from their position at State, National, and International level competitions, but this does not always happen.
I have had this discussion with my own students many times, and here is one of the problems. As I sit and judge Black Belt Poomsae competition, I sometimes see a seasoned competitor shoot those kicks sky high, and as much as I might shake my head and think to myself, this is not correct, this person is often one of the best technicians competing that day. If this person does a nearly perfect form, and the other competitors kick right on the solar plexus, but their stance is weak, their balance is off, their eye-focus is down, and a number of other reasons, then myself and the other judges award the first place to the high kicker. We are not rewarding the high kick, but rather the fact that the rest of the form was better than anyone else's on the floor, but it has the same effect.
However, if two people do their form almost identically well, and one kicked at the solar plexus, while the other kicked at the ceiling, the lower kick would win (if the judging is done correctly according to WTF standards). As I am often the senior ranking judge in my ring, I make sure to politely remind other judges of this rule before competition starts. One way to remedy this guessing game at local tournaments, is to attend the Black Belt/Referee meeting before the competition begins. Ask the tournament director, or Referee Coordinator, what the policy of that tournament will be on accurate Poomsae targets (specify Koryo if you wish). This will let you know how to coach your athletes for that day, and will bring the subject up for all the judges to hear, and hopefully be consistent throughout all of the rings.
I hope that sharing these personal experiences which I have had over the years, helps some students to see this issue in a broader sense, but most of the advice that I have read in this thread here has been right on point already.
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart
Clearly, this is going to influence the overall attitude of the judging at these events. If it looks good, it'll probably get you points no matter how absurd it would be to try to use in a street confrontation...
