Jion vs Ge-Baek vs Koryo

[andyjeffries]

There's no such thing as "proper" English. The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.

What about the fact that not all of "us on here" are from America?

I'm proud to live in the UK (about 30 miles north of our capital), as I'm sure are others such as RobinTKD and Tez3 (for two examples I'm aware of).

Am I allowed to consider you ignorant then, based on the fact that I speak "proper" English? ;-)

 

[Earl Weiss]

Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the ignorant one.
There's no such thing as "proper" English. The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make ME the fool.

I am sorry sir, but you are in a reality distortion field. I did not say you WERE ignorant, only how you would be percieved. Perceptions shape reality. You are choosing how you want to be perceived.

 

[clfsean]

Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the ignorant one.
There's no such thing as "proper" English. The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make ME the fool.

Wow... just wow...

And people wonder why America is the target for so many jokes & Americans aren't thought of nearly as highly as we see ourselves...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the ignorant one.
There's no such thing as "proper" English. The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too. For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.
Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.
If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make ME the fool.

1 - The highlighted sentences contradict each other. Of course there is such a thing as proper English. Languages have rules. Follow them, and you're speaking the language properly.
2 - The purpose of language is, as you say, communiction. Therefore, when you join an international forum and intentionally choose to write in a way that makes communication more difficult, it can only be assumed that communication is NOT your priority. From your posts, your priority almost seems to be confrontation or a desire to be disruptive. Hardly helpful to communication, don't you agree? English can be difficult enough for those users for whom it is not a first language; intentionally making it more difficult just seems foolish.

Like it or not, forums are based on the written language, and the inability and/or unwillingness to express oneself clearly in writing will not help your credibility in any way.

 

[andyjeffries]

Wow... just wow...

And people wonder why America is the target for so many jokes & Americans aren't thought of nearly as highly as we see ourselves...

It's OK, apparently everyone on this board is American so "we" all see "ourselves" in the same way

 

[miguksaram]

Then it is not my fault that Im not takin seriously and Im not the ignorant one.
There's no such thing as "proper" English."

Actually there is. There are grammar rules that are in effect. So there is a thing called proper English. Whether you choose to follow those rules or speak "Ebonics" which in my opinion is nothing more than an excuse to remain ignorant of language, then that is your choice.

The purpose of language is for communication with the use of words and arbitrary sounds.
If Im considered ignorant then all of us on here are too.

If you speak in a manner which is deprived of the basic fundamentals of language rules, such as not adding your 'g' at the end of a sentence or 't' at the end of word, then you will be thought as ignorant or at the very least immature.

For the simple fact that so-called "proper" English is spoken in the UK.

You can try to throw that card out but it has no bearing on this manner. In America you are still taught proper sentence structure and spelling. Both which you seem to lack in you posts.

Its jus the same as ppl from the North thinkin that ppl from the South are ignorant jus because they have an southern accent.

Talking in a dialect is not the same as purposely misspelling your words.

If yall consider me ignorant because of my speech, then that doesent make ME the fool.

Perhaps you are not a fool at all. But we will never know because you present yourself as one in the way you communicate.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For any Ebonics advocate who thinks perception is not important, then they must not know about the Miss Ebonics pagaent where they could only get contestants from 49 states because no one wanted to be Miss Idaho.

 

[clfsean]

For any Ebonics advocate who thinks perception is not important, then they must not know about the Miss Ebonics pagaent where they could only get contestants from 49 states because no one wanted to be Miss Idaho.

*ouch*

:s505:

 

[Kinghercules]

What about the fact that not all of "us on here" are from America?

I'm proud to live in the UK (about 30 miles north of our capital), as I'm sure are others such as RobinTKD and Tez3 (for two examples I'm aware of).

Am I allowed to consider you ignorant then, based on the fact that I speak "proper" English? ;-)

Ok Im wrong on the fact that ppl here are from around the world.

 

[Kinghercules]

2 - The purpose of language is, as you say, communiction. Therefore, when you join an international forum and intentionally choose to write in a way that makes communication more difficult, it can only be assumed that communication is NOT your priority.

Like it or not, forums are based on the written language, and the inability and/or unwillingness to express oneself clearly in writing will not help your credibility in any way.

I strongly disagree. I dont think you've been in a foreign form before or you wouldve have posted that. For the simple fact that when you are in a Spanish speakin form MANY ppl will post in slang & if they're Black they'll post in Spanish Ebonics. Especially Mexican and Peruvian ppl. Besides from the streets the forms is where I learned alot of my Spanish slang. Jus because a Dominican or Puerto Rican brotha/sista chose to type and post in Spanish slang Im suppose to assume that he/she is being difficult and not really tryna communicate. BS!
In my opinion (because thats all we're talkin here is our opinions) you're and the rest of yall are the ignorant ones.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I strongly disagree. I dont think you've been in a foreign form before or you wouldve have posted that. For the simple fact that when you are in a Spanish speakin form MANY ppl will post in slang & if they're Black they'll post in Spanish Ebonics. Especially Mexican and Peruvian ppl. Besides from the streets the forms is where I learned alot of my Spanish slang. Jus because a Dominican or Puerto Rican brotha/sista chose to type and post in Spanish slang Im suppose to assume that he/she is being difficult and not really tryna communicate. BS!

(Insults and name calling deleted.)

This is certainly true, and arguably appropriate in a LOCAL forum. Of course, it doesn't apply here. Not even a little bit.

 

[Cyriacus]

Why are people seriously discussing how English works.

Man you guys are so literal around here or is it jus because we're on the internet? LOL!
When I said we did Jion before the tournament I didnt mean the day of the tournament, right before it started.
Its just somethin done leadin up to the day. In fact the day before GM Cheeks would have me jus go thru forms and stretchin.
Before then all the sparring and techniques wouldve been worked on.
Now on the day of the tournament right before things get started we would go thru Yuk Soo Darion to prepare for the sparrin.

Now in the WKF I dont think I would do good in those kinda tournaments. Correct me if Im wrong but they HAVE TO fight in that stance and position, right?

I did some stretching earlier.
Like, two days ago.

Hey thanks for the advice.
But my "g" button on my computer works fine.
Since this is not a formal settin. I choose to type in Ebonics since I speak in Ebonics.
I always find it funny how white ppl always wanna criticize how I type as if dey type jus how dey speak.

I for one actually do. Just add a throat-clear after every paragraph or two.

My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex.

Internet People. Always taking everything so literally.

Getta back bone.

A better reply would have been "Get a Close Tab Button".

I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms. To me they're too robotic. I was taught to be more fluent with the movements.

You're right....now that I think about it. The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.

Forms arent Fighting. Theyre essentially a moving record.

It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
So if Ive missed it.....my bad.

Cool.

The person that I had trained under was GM Ki Whang Kim and he taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. GM Kim knew some of the Korean master from back in the day when TKD got started. In fact he use to teach Palgwes & Taegueks back in the day but decided that they werent a good idea and stuck to the Okinawan forms that he had learned in Japan. GM Ki Whang Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."Cool. But that depends on why You do Forms.

So my question is this.....Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?

Mostly just for the sake of it. Im not going to break out into Dan-Gun if Im accosted, and You wont break out into Jion.

I picked Jion, Ge-Beak and Koryo because they are the 1st dan BB forms (under GM Kim Jion was a 3rd dan form but I learned it as a 1st dan) that we can compare. Ive worked at WTF and ITF schools and as I was learning their forms to teach them it was hard for me to figure out why they were doing them and the head instructors couldnt explain to me what were the reason for them to do the forms (which I found funny and sad).

Thats mostly because Theyve forgotten Why They Exist. Theyre a moving Record. Like a Picture Book, only with Human Movements. If You want a Workout and whatnot, do the relative exercises. I wont do Chun Ji to get better at Punching. Ill Punch.

So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak. And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea.

Ge-Beak and Koryo, like all the others, can be broken down into moving records. The same goes for Kata, incidentally. Karate and Taekwondo Forms are not Representations, so much as Depictions of Ideas. I could pretty much take something effective and base a Form around it.

For us, those of us that do the traditional TKD & TSD forms....(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for generations.

Most Martial Arts arent even remotely Traditional then. But Ill play along, and if need be, say Old School instead of Traditional.

It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation. It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)....ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

It seems Your Forms are approached differently. This is somewhat interesting. Youre basically saying Your Lower Forms are a buildup to the higher ones. The other Standard is that every Form is different. They are not related to each other. I like the not-Your-method way, but Im not going to criticize it. It interests Me.

So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work. GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion all the time before I competed and he told me that him and Mike Warren use to always do Jion before they competed in tournaments. Why? Because it was for conditioning.

This is also Interesting. But is it really much different to doing strenuous Training and Drilling?

Maybe the schools that Ive worked at the instructors didnt think it was improtant to know why or were never taught the meaning and reasons for doing Koryo, Ge-Beak, Eui Am, Kumgang and the rest of them. For us we were all ways taught why we were doing our forms. When we were doin the Pians we were constantly told that these forms come from the higher forms and we have to master them to be able to master the higher forms.

Again, interesting. I cant help but think this makes Forms out to be way more useful than They are though.

Now a 2nd question comes to mind. As GM Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity." So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?

By that logic, You should pick one of Your Choice, from a bigger pool of choices.

Just My Contribution.

 

[Kinghercules]

I find it funny and sad that I have to defend Afrikan American culture to white ppl now a days. LOL!

I chose to type in Ebonics wheneva its not a formal settin becuz Im proud of who I am. Not many (if any) Black ppl would post in slang on forms becuz they're uncomfortable or worried how they wud be viewed by white ppl or otha ppl. But as for me I could careless. We're not doin academic or scholarly work. Mofos are jus shootin da breeze. Besides if we were talkin face to face and I started speakin in Ebonics non of yall wud dare say to me (or if it was any otha Black person) "Speak correct English." Cuz you know damn well yall get punched in the face (unless they were trained in the ATA LOL). You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly.

miguksaram said "Actually there is. There are grammar rules that are in effect. So there is a thing called proper English. Whether you choose to follow those rules or speak "Ebonics" which in my opinion is nothing more than an excuse to remain ignorant of language, then that is your choice."

Ok lets look at this. English is not a Romance language but most of the words in English come out of Romance languages. English is consider to be a Germanic language becuz of the sounds and structure of it. Ebonics is its own language. Just becauz English words are used dosent make it a English language. Your butt need to understand relexification to understand why and how Black ppl speak Ebonics. It doesnt mean that the person is ignorant or ignorin the rules of English. The grammar, structure and syntax of Ebonics is not the same as in English but is the same as in many Afikan languages. In many Afrikan languages you dont have a "to be" verb. So when a Black person says "Ayo where dem bammas at," he/she is speakin correct Ebonics and no longer speakin English.

 

[Kinghercules]

Why are people seriously discussing how English works.

Hey, why in they talkin about the Iraq war across the hall?

I did some stretching earlier.
Like, two days ago.

LOL! Ok.....

Internet People. Always taking everything so literally.

Hey thats what I said!
LOL!

Forms arent Fighting. Theyre essentially a moving record.

But they were made (at lest some) out of fighting.
I was taught that you should practice your forms as if you were fightin.
Have you ever seen them ol' school Kung Fu flicks? When the guy gets beat he runs and home and start trainin, right? You see him doin what....forms? Over and over and over and over and over and over and over......and it be the same form!! They'll say somethin like "Ive been practicin this technique for the past 12yrs." They would do one form for 12yrs. I know its a movie but thats how they trained back then. Your forms are a reflection of your fightin.....at lest for us it is.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hey, why in they talkin about the Iraq war across the hall?


LOL! Ok.....




Hey thats what I said!
LOL!



But they were made (at lest some) out of fighting.
I was taught that you should practice your forms as if you were fightin.
Have you ever seen them ol' school Kung Fu flicks? When the guy gets beat he runs and home and start trainin, right? You see him doin what....forms? Over and over and over and over and over and over and over......and it be the same form!! They'll say somethin like "Ive been practicin this technique for the past 12yrs." They would do one form for 12yrs. I know its a movie but thats how they trained back then. Your forms are a reflection of your fightin.....at lest for us it is.

Yes, Theyre made out of Fighting. But the entire thing isnt Fighting, parts of it are.

As for how You practice them, Im not sure Youd move anything remotely like You do in a Form, in a Fight.

Thats Kung Fu flicks, where jumping spinning and flying around is a perfectly acceptable method of Street Fighting.

For us, Individual Parts of a given Form are Methods of Fighting, but there isnt one Preset "You must do everything exactly like this".

 

[Kinghercules]

Mostly just for the sake of it. Im not going to break out into Dan-Gun if Im accosted, and You wont break out into Jion.

LOL! True that.

If You want a Workout and whatnot, do the relative exercises. I wont do Chun Ji to get better at Punching. Ill Punch.

Well Idk about that.......because in martial arts lifting weights is not a big part of it (not to say they dont do it). So how does one get the strength to break boards, ice and bricks? Forms. Or what we call "walkin the floor". Where you go up and down the floor doin low blocks, high blocks, punches....etc.

Most Martial Arts arent even remotely Traditional then.

I like the not-Your-method way, but Im not going to criticize it. It interests Me.

Explain.

By that logic, You should pick one of Your Choice, from a bigger pool of choices.

True that.

 

[MJS]

Admin Note:

Keep the discussion at a polite and friendly level please. If you can't post without resorting to calling someone a name and swearing, then perhaps you shouldn't post at all!

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Sukerkin]

To try and forstall the direction this thread seems to be going in, here is the relevant section from the site regulations:


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


4.18 Language:


MartialTalk is a United States based forum; As such all posts must be primarily in English.

While we respect the fact that many people are fluent in several foreign languages, this is an English-speaking community, and that is the standard that everyone is expected to follow.

Posts that discuss foreign language terms are fine, as long as the discussion of such terms is carried out mostly in English, and such terms are translated in a verifiable manner.

Posts that are written entirely, or mostly, in a language other than English will be removed.

Insults, slights, and other derogatory terms and phrases posted in a foreign language as also subject to these rules. We will rely on sites such as Google and Babel to translate, and their version will be what we accept.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Hopefully the contributors can now get back to discussing, in English as clear as they can honestly manage, whatever this thread is supposed to be about.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thereafter, the term Ebonics became popularized, though as little more than a synonym for African American Vernacular English, perhaps differing in the emphasis on its claimed African roots and independence from English. The term is linked with the nationally discussed controversy over the decision by the Oakland School Board, which adopted a resolution to teach children "standard American English" through a specific program of respect for students' home language and tutoring in the "code switching" required to use both standard English and Ebonics.[SUP][17][/SUP]While the term is avoided by most linguists,[SUP][18][/SUP] it is used elsewhere (such as on Internet message boards), often for ridiculing AAVE, particularly when this is inaccurately parodied as differing more from Standard American English than it really does.[SUP][19][/SUP] Black American linguist John McWhorter argues that the use of the term does more to hinder black academic achievement than to help it, in that considering AAVE to be a completely different language from English serves only to widen the perceived divide between whites and blacks in America.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][Full citation needed] (Wikipedia)[/SUP]

 

[andyjeffries]

Besides if we were talkin face to face and I started speakin in Ebonics non of yall wud dare say to me (or if it was any otha Black person) "Speak correct English." Cuz you know damn well yall get punched in the face (unless they were trained in the ATA LOL). You wud have to be a racist MF to tell a Black person to speak correctly.

Maybe it's me coming from a non-american point of view, but they way you are typing may seem "ebonics" or "black" to you, but it just seems like slang to me. So I don't care whether you see it as racist being told to speak correct English. FWIW I may or may not tell you to speak correctly (I have in the past), I may just repeatedly say "sorry, I didn't understand you then, what did you mean" (and eventually people get the hint) or after a couple of sentences the conversation would end (I wouldn't bother with follow-ups and leave). This isn't a black thing, it's a slang thing and constantly speaking slang (or txtspk for that matter) will not get you far in conversations with people who don't speak that way.

What you are being told on here (and I didn't step in until you assumed no-one on here spoke correct English) isn't to put you down or whatever you're feeling, it's people trying to advise you on how to get a better reception/response on here. There is a lot of combined knowledge on the martial arts on here. You may feel like you're the be-all-and-end-all and don't need it, but if you want to take advantage of the knowledge you want to communicate in a way that doesn't make people want to not converse with you.

So, in summary - not racist, people are trying to help you, your call.