Knife defence - Any attempts at live training and active resistance?

Hawk79

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I see a lot of people in YouTube videos talking about the ineffectiveness of knife defence. Some people carry out experiments where they take a knife defence technique and try it out against someone holding a marker pen who is trying to mark them. These experiments always result in the defender having a lot of marks all over them.

In general, I agree that most (if not all) knife defence techniques are probably not effective.

The problem I have with the experiments people do to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of knife defence is that they don't do practice sparring and active resistance for many months before doing the experiment. When I do Jiu Jitsu, I am taught a technique and then attempt it on a non-compliant partner. I quickly discover the technique "doesn't work". Each Friday I try the technique during rolls and once again, the technique fails. But after months of rolling and active resistance sessions I start to have some success.

What I would like to see is people experimenting with knife defence techniques for months or even years before determining a technique does not work. They should be using active resistance and live training.

Is there anyone out there that is doing this?

Like I say, I doubt many knife defence techniques would actually work but the lack of active resistance and live training means that we are unlikely to ever discover effective techniques if there are some waiting to be discovered.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I always used a range of training knives, varying them based on the risk each represents in a given situation, approach, or ruleset. I have wooden tantos, dull aluminum trainers, plastic and rubber ones, and some foam ones.

I liked what each brought as low-risk tools. The harder ones hurt and bruised a bit if you got hit. The rubber and plastic were more likely to scratch. The foam allowed more all-out approaches. The variety allowed students to experiment and experience different failures.
 
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Hawk79

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I always used a range of training knives, varying them based on the risk each represents in a given situation, approach, or ruleset. I have wooden tantos, dull aluminum trainers, plastic and rubber ones, and some foam ones.

I liked what each brought as low-risk tools. The harder ones hurt and bruised a bit if you got hit. The rubber and plastic were more likely to scratch. The foam allowed more all-out approaches. The variety allowed students to experiment and experience different failures.
So did you discover anything? I mean did you figure out a way to disarm a resisting opponent?

Do you know of a knife defence martial art that has active resistance and live sparring?
 

Gerry Seymour

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So did you discover anything? I mean did you figure out a way to disarm a resisting opponent?

Do you know of a knife defence martial art that has active resistance and live sparring?
As with much else around weapons, its all about knowing the limits. A skilled fighter, with a weapon in his hand, becomes more dangerous. Its possible to take the weapon away, but in many scenarios trying to do so is just dangerous. The point of the training is to get a better understanding what the risks are, as opposed to how many self-defense drills make it look.

Im not well versed in weapon arts, so wouldnt be a good resource for your other question.
 

Mr Nighthawk

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To defend against a knife you will probably be cut. If its life or death, you will glad you practiced knife defense technique.
 

Buka

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I have good knife skills. It was one of those things that the very first time you try something it just came naturally. It felt like I was born with a knife in my hand.

I am also the most inept person I've ever met when it comes to barehanded knife defense. And I've put in a lot of hours trying to improve. No dice, un uh, I just suck at it.

With a knife in my hand, though, I'll defend against the best of them.
 

Mider

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Ive seen dog brothers and others
I have good knife skills. It was one of those things that the very first time you try something it just came naturally. It felt like I was born with a knife in my hand.

I am also the most inept person I've ever met when it comes to barehanded knife defense. And I've put in a lot of hours trying to improve. No dice, un uh, I just suck at it.

With a knife in my hand, though, I'll defend against the best of them.
question, do they tra8n Lua much in the islands
 

Buka

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Ive seen dog brothers and others

question, do they tra8n Lua much in the islands
I'm sure they do but it's hard to say.

Out here, and probably specific to each island, there are pockets of people who train in just about anything you can name. Not in organized schools maybe, but I'm sure there's some of that as well.

Over the years I've run into people who were training within spitting distance to me and I never realized it. To give you an example....years ago, a guy contacted me with some questions about writing. So we met for lunch.

The subject of Martial Arts came up and he told me he had a dojo in his back yard. His backyard was right down the street from me. He told me "Just as you're about to turn left, you'll see a little break in the thorn bushes, pull right in there and go about twenty five yards.

So I did. As I'm driving through the bushes I'm thinking, WTF? Then I get through them. In front of me is a dojo. A big one. It's built in an exact, miniature example of the ancient Kodakan. I stopped shot, said "Whoa."

It was an Aikido school. Really nice dojo, really nice people, and to this day the greatest training mat I've ever seen. Drove by those bushes every day for six years, never knew anything was there.

So, as to Lua, I dunno', but probably.
 

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A washable magic marker and a white T-shirt are fairly affordable training aids. Fighting some one with a knife is dicey at best. If they are experienced with it you are in trouble. Better to get away if you can.
 

Blindside

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What I would like to see is people experimenting with knife defence techniques for months or even years before determining a technique does not work. They should be using active resistance and live training.

Is there anyone out there that is doing this?

there are a bunch of people doing this.
I like Burton Richardson's stuff, Dog Brother's "Die Less Often 1", and Red Zone Threat Management's material. We practice knife defense pretty regularly, and "die" all the time. Unarmed vs. knife sucks and should be a last resort.

Old stuff from a decade ago:


Not a knife, but I'm too poor to afford a shock knife. :D
 

EdwardA

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I don't know guys. When I had knives pulled on me on the street, it was no specific form of defense that helped, but the overall effectiveness and spontaneity of ALL my training that made the difference. You don't have time for anything, but what you've added into your subconscious and maybe muscle memory. It happens very fast, and if it doesn't you're gonna get cut. Thankfully I never was....a few times.

I had a guy come up behind me (1am in a parking lot) once with a huge bucher knife, he was gonna strike down on me from behind..he was taller and bigger. For a split second I'm thinking "what the...". The next thing I knew he was unconscious on the ground... took me a few minutes to realise what i had done to him. If it doesn't happen that fast, your in trouble. It's no specific technique.
 
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drop bear

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A washable magic marker and a white T-shirt are fairly affordable training aids. Fighting some one with a knife is dicey at best. If they are experienced with it you are in trouble. Better to get away if you can.

We did that for a work training session after a mate of mine got stabbed.

My guy was more magic marker than man by the time I was finished.
 

Rich Parsons

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I see a lot of people in YouTube videos talking about the ineffectiveness of knife defence. Some people carry out experiments where they take a knife defence technique and try it out against someone holding a marker pen who is trying to mark them. These experiments always result in the defender having a lot of marks all over them.

In general, I agree that most (if not all) knife defence techniques are probably not effective.

The problem I have with the experiments people do to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of knife defence is that they don't do practice sparring and active resistance for many months before doing the experiment. When I do Jiu Jitsu, I am taught a technique and then attempt it on a non-compliant partner. I quickly discover the technique "doesn't work". Each Friday I try the technique during rolls and once again, the technique fails. But after months of rolling and active resistance sessions I start to have some success.

What I would like to see is people experimenting with knife defence techniques for months or even years before determining a technique does not work. They should be using active resistance and live training.

Is there anyone out there that is doing this?

Like I say, I doubt many knife defence techniques would actually work but the lack of active resistance and live training means that we are unlikely to ever discover effective techniques if there are some waiting to be discovered.

I have in the past, used an Emerson trainer and my regular clothes and started on my back in various positions to see if I could deploy and use the tool. It is a dull ceramic like blade and hurts when poked and can be felt on skin.
.
I have had the unfortunate opportunity to disarm a couple of times, many years ago.
Situational and it happened from my training and it was with real people I did not know.
The situations happened to be in my favor that day.
.
That being said I also have a couple of times where once I stabbed in the leg and thought it was a punch in a crowd and unable to get to them given the 10,000 people in attendance and by the time I realized I was bleeding versus just hit.
The other was on the arm and then it was all defense to not get cut or stabbed.
.
So two one way, two the other.
I have also had multiple times I could use an improvised weapon and they choose not to engage. So no disarm attempts were tried and or thought about.
.
That being said, it was all a while ago, and I am not claiming I would have the success rate I had then today.
 

Instructor

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I have in the past, used an Emerson trainer and my regular clothes and started on my back in various positions to see if I could deploy and use the tool. It is a dull ceramic like blade and hurts when poked and can be felt on skin.
.
I have had the unfortunate opportunity to disarm a couple of times, many years ago.
Situational and it happened from my training and it was with real people I did not know.
The situations happened to be in my favor that day.
.
That being said I also have a couple of times where once I stabbed in the leg and thought it was a punch in a crowd and unable to get to them given the 10,000 people in attendance and by the time I realized I was bleeding versus just hit.
The other was on the arm and then it was all defense to not get cut or stabbed.
.
So two one way, two the other.
I have also had multiple times I could use an improvised weapon and they choose not to engage. So no disarm attempts were tried and or thought about.
.
That being said, it was all a while ago, and I am not claiming I would have the success rate I had then today.
I successfully disarmed one person (unskilled) trying to stab me many years ago. I still ended up with a scratch on my ear, have no idea how it got there. My nightmare is a sewing machine style attack from multiple attackers.
 
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