Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?

[Milt G.]

Ask Jill.... :lol:

Now THAT is funny...
Thanks for the chuckle!

Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik. I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik. He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.

This was one of a few seminars that I attended with my own instructor because I can't decode information from seminars well, and I wanted his help in breaking the material down for me.

The seminar proceeded with Mr. Juchnik demonstrating a technique, then havning us practice it. My instructor would watch me try what was being taught...such as pointing your shoulder in a direction where you were trying to leap..

He would then ask "Did it work? (Did I jump farther, as Mr. Juchnik said I would?)

When I said yes, he would then quiz me with "Do you know why it worked?" He would challenge me to figure out the mechanics. If I couldn't, he would then explain why. Mechanically, what was being taught appeared to be sound. One move was essentially a one-inch punch, another was was a set of moves that some FMAists practice as a rope form.

Mr. Juchnik has been a colorful figure in his own right, but at least in my interaction with him, I found him to be very helpful and respectful. I arrived at the seminar with an FMA shirt on from my old school but he regarded us with the same respect he gave to Sensei Bonk's students. We weren't the only FMAists there, either, but everyone in attendance was polite and respectful to one another. My instructor was there with me, but there were plenty of Kosho students willing to lend a hand if I got stuck.

After the seminar, I asked my instructor what he thought about Mr. Juchnik learning from Mitose in jail. (Some folks have said it would have been impossible for him to teach from prison). My instructor then recalled something that Mr. Juchnik said at the seminar, where a piece of paper was folded in half, and creased, and Mitose described how pressure on the paper would make it bend at the crease, in the direction of the crease. That lead to an application exploited how an elbow can, and will be bent on its hinge with the right application of pressure. My instructor finished by saying that was likely an example of how Mitose taught, when he could not physically demonstrate. Perhaps some folks will say that the story Mr. Juchnik said was a lie and just another Mitose fraud.

There were aspects to Kosho Ryu Kempo that I found difficult. The terminology at times was a bit flowery and difficult to follow. Sometimes Mr. Juchnik was difficult to follow. There was not as much time spent on combat applications as I personally would have liked...which left me wondering how I would use some of the material in a live situation. Perhaps some folks will say that is proof that the system is fradulent.

The seminar to me was very positive. I particularly enjoyed working out with Mr. Bonk and his students. I can't say that I walked away from the seminar with any kind of personal insult or disgust.

Hello,
I too, have worked with Juchnik-Hanshi. Actually quite extensively. I attend his local seminars whenever I can. He has an area rep. (Shihan) that I have been friends with for many years. We support each others events. I find him (Juchnik) to be one of the most skilled martial arts practitioners I have seen. I have seen a few, but certainly not all.

Yes, his training with Mitose, in prison, was only conceptual. They do not allow "inmates" to "work out" with visitors while incarcerated.

Juchnik-Hanshi's "Kosho-Ryu" is his interpretation of the ideas and concepts Mitose taught him, based on his understanding of the martial arts in general. His background was primarily Kenpo Tracy/Parker, FMA, Indonesian arts and Arnis. (Presas lineage) I do feel that other practitioners may have interpreted the teachings differently, based on their individual training and skill sets.

Another of James Mitose's positive influences at work. No one is perfect. We are all human, with many flaws. Some more then others. I believe Mitose's legacy is more positive then negative, overall.

Thanks for your seminar insights!
Milt G.

 

[Flying Crane]

Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained? Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."

Mitose's book actually has quite a bit of stuff in it that is absolutely recognizable in the Tracy system. I wouldn't be surprised if other lineages also found some recognizable stuff, but I don't know them and can't comment. Granted, he shows a lot of basic stuff that is probably common to just about any art of Japanese or Okinawan origin, and that's not the stuff I'm talking about. He demonstrates quite a large number of self defense techniques that are similar in nature to what we have in Tracys, and some are so close as to be essentially the same thing.

Mitose demonstrates a number of techniques that are clearly recognizable when compared to the Tracy syllabus, and with just a short perusal I recognized Crossing Talon, Tackle Techniques, Rising Elbow, Breaking the Cross, Opening Cowl, Prayer of Death and Covering the Flame. Of course Mitose did not call them by these names.

Some of these SD techs weren't EXACTLY the same, but they were so close that it was clear what they were. They just had minor positioning differences, and minor differences in follow-ups, that kind of thing.

other techniques showed elements and portions of techs that I recognized from other techs in our syllabus, but they were applied in a different context, and whatnot. Very similar ideas, just differences in application. Essentially the same stuff in a lot of ways. Not all of it, but enough to see a clear commonality.

His photo layouts are rather minimalistic and it can be difficult to figure out how he gets from position in Photo A to position in Photo B, but I think that was mostly a limitation of the technology and layout that he had available to him at that time. So certainly with some of his techs it's a bit difficult to see what he's really doing. But I was really surprised at how much of it looks very similar, even identical in many instances.

So you are certainly correct in stating that Tracy's material has been filtered thru Chow and Parker, and changes were made along the way. Obviously the kata that we now recognize as being included in most lineages that came from Parker were developed later and were not practiced by Mitose. The full technique curriculum that exists today in Tracys was also not identical to what Mitose was doing. But there is a whole lot in common, just in comparing what he put in his book.

 

[yorkshirelad]

EPAK is a system of Kenpo JuJutsu. The JuJutsu influence as always been there and is quite overt. My original system was JuJutsu. I can't tell you the ryu, but I can explain that the lineage was through Kenshiro Abbe sensei, who was trained at the Kodokan in Judo and was also a student of Ueshiba in Aiki Budo before emigrating to the UK in 1955.

When I first began EPAK, I was the only student of my instructor, who was a 1st Degree brown. He was a fellow student of both Aikido and JuJutsu after each class at the local sports centre, he wuld teah me motion Kenpo and then relate it to JuJutsu.

Take Twist of Fate for instance. I use this technique as an example because it has many variations that all involve traditional JuJutsu waza. If you perform the technique in the ideal phase, you have Juju garame. If, however, after the initial double check and right kick (presuming you are doing the technique on the right side) you grasp the opponant's left arm with both had and follow through ith the technique, the technique becomes shiho nage (four direction throw). If, after the initial double check and right kick, you grasp the opponant right hand at the heel and left at the wrist and turn towards the opponant the technique becomes sankajo (3rd control). By stepping with the left from behind the opponant after sankajo and bending the opponant's wrist at a 45 degree anle the technique becomes sankajo renko (3rd control into gooseneck). If you grab the opponant's right wrist with both hands and follow through with the motion of Twist of Fate you can also perform a text book yonkajo (4th control).

EPAKS cannot operate fully without the JuJutsu componant. EPAKS IS Kenpo JuJutsu.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Ask Jill.... :lol:

wow! CAROL!...YOU'VE OFFICALLY CROSSED THE LINE!
So, now of course...the question remains...Who sparks your chi?
ROFLMAO!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KenpoDave]

look at Mitose's book, the technies are all classic japanese karate stuff

no flow

nothing remotely kenpo like at all

Interesting. First, it is hard to see flow in snapshots. Second, so the guy who introduced kenpo to the west did "nothing remotely kenpo like at all?"

I think it would be more correct to state that the photographs in the book do not resemble kenpo as you know it...maybe?

 

[KenpoDave]

Hmmm. I would be a little suspicious of that (what he said, not what you said). It sounds like that fellow was just trying to acknowledge that you were all part of the same family.

I was told by a student of Mitose's who was also a student of Chow, Brother Abe and Ralph Castro, that "You can't compare what Mitose was doing in the 40's with what is being taught now because it is like trying to compare a flint-lock rifle to a machine gun." Combine that with the "Kinny garden stuff" statement from Chow, and it sounds like they're saying the same basic thing.

Sijo Emperado also said that Mitose only tried to do the "One-punch kill" stuff ala old-school Karate etc. and that there was no flow or follow-through in the techniques. Apparently Mitose was pretty good at the one-punch part since he hit Emperado's metal car fender one time, and left a large fist-shaped dent in it. But I have not really heard anything that says what he did was similar to modern Kenpo.

Perhaps. I do recall that this person was very excited to have found our school, had visited more than a few other schools over the decades, and went on and on about how this was the training that she remembered.

 

[KenpoDave]

Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained? Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."

The self defense techniques and the training were the same. We, as a general rule, do not practice kata in class, so I doubt that during her time with us, she saw much of Short 1 and Long 1. But, very often, during technique practice, she would observe something, and step in and offer a lesson from her time with Mitose, that for many of us, would open up a new aspect of the technique. Sometimes, we already knew it. But she knew and recognized the kenpo that we were practicing.

 

[KenpoDave]

Well, let's see: Chow, Parker, Emperado, (my other source who wishes to not be named in a public forum, and since he is a 9th degree in my system, and friend, I will honor that) and Doc, have all had first hand experience with Mitose's skill. They all came to roughly the same conclusion. If he was hiding his art, he hid it quite well I'd say.

I have read in several places that Emperado stated that Mitose was a "Master Level Instructor." Chow's opinions of everyone seem, to me, more about Chow being top-dog than anything else. But he only had one teacher, and that was Mitose. Thomas Young stayed with Mitose's teachings and was writing very positively about him up until his death. Okazaki thought highly of him, as did Kufferath. As a matter of fact, all of the people that I have personally met that knew Mitose, spoke very highly of his skill.

Don't know much about Parker's experiences with him, nor Doc's. But I have read the court transcripts and think that by the early 70's, Mitose was loony.

I imagine the jury will never be in. Bottom line is that kenpo is awesome, and what we have funneled through Mitose.

 

[KenpoDave]

My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.

Except that they all did bash each other at one point or another.

 

[KenpoDave]

Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary.

To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.

I don't know of any stories like that about Mitose. Well, there is the orange thing, but that was told to me by someone who witnessed it first hand.

 

[Danjo]

I have read in several places that Emperado stated that Mitose was a "Master Level Instructor." Chow's opinions of everyone seem, to me, more about Chow being top-dog than anything else. But he only had one teacher, and that was Mitose. Thomas Young stayed with Mitose's teachings and was writing very positively about him up until his death. Okazaki thought highly of him, as did Kufferath. As a matter of fact, all of the people that I have personally met that knew Mitose, spoke very highly of his skill.

Don't know much about Parker's experiences with him, nor Doc's. But I have read the court transcripts and think that by the early 70's, Mitose was loony.

I imagine the jury will never be in. Bottom line is that kenpo is awesome, and what we have funneled through Mitose.

What did Thomas Young ever do? I've never seen footage of him doing anything but talking to Bruce Juchnik. Is there any evidence that he did anything but the basic karate-like kenpo?

As to Emperado's statement: It is filtered third hand from a very dubious source. This fellow has made several other claims of Kajukenbo history that most disregard, and no one has any respect for him that I know of (except people who never met him, or who were cross-ranked by him without ever having studied under him).

On the other hand, I have heard Emperado with his own mouth say the things I attributed to him. It's on a video I have.

I'm sure that basic karate looked impressive back in the 1940's to those that first saw it.

 

[Danjo]

Except that they all did bash each other at one point or another.

Kindly point me to where Chow, Parker, Emperado, and Doc, all bashed each other. We have one dubious "interview" with Chow where he spposedly says something negative about Parker. Chow never ran down Emperado at all. Emperado gave Parker an 8th degree and said he did great things for Kenpo. Parker never ran down Chow's or Emperado's abilities that I ever heard of. And Those guys never trashed Doc either that I know of. If he ever said anything negative about them, then I've never read it either.

 

[Danjo]

I don't know of any stories like that about Mitose. Well, there is the orange thing, but that was told to me by someone who witnessed it first hand.

The legendary stuff about Mitose has more to do with his learning an ancient family art in a temple in Japan, and that he only taught the surface arts to whose Hawaiian boys etc. and that the "real stuff" was saved for those guys he taught in prison etc. Plus his sisters being high level practitioners etc. etc.

The Death Matches were about Dante and Dux. But all of it is unsubstantiated legend.

 

[Twin Fist]

actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.

mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......

 

[Danjo]

actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.

mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......

Yeah, I'm up on that stuff from Will Tracy and other trash talk. But Dave made a pretty specific statement about those I named: Chow, Emperado, Parker and Ron Chapel. I am curious to see where he can show me where these fellows all bashed on each other.

 

[Milt G.]

The self defense techniques and the training were the same. We, as a general rule, do not practice kata in class, so I doubt that during her time with us, she saw much of Short 1 and Long 1. But, very often, during technique practice, she would observe something, and step in and offer a lesson from her time with Mitose, that for many of us, would open up a new aspect of the technique. Sometimes, we already knew it. But she knew and recognized the kenpo that we were practicing.

Hello, Mr. Hopper...
Do you tend to practice the kata during private instruction classes and not in the regular "open group" classes?

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.

mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......

Hello,

I have never heard Al Tracy say anything really negative about Ed Parker. He still openly refers to Ed Parker as "my teacher".

While I have read Will Tracy's articles, I do not believe everything at face value. All of that happened a long time ago, and minds, like history, can become clouded. Also, I do know that different parties witnessing the same event, can have different stories to tell about what happened. Even though they were all seeing the same thing, at the same time! I do think that a fair amount of it is true. Of course, I cannot comment, with conviction, on any of it as I was not there. I do not think, however, Will Tracy has anything to gain by "bad mouthing" Ed Parker. Of course, his relationship to Ed Parker was somewhat different then some of the other students. Or so the story has been told.

The history of Kenpo, in general, is just the memories of those on the ground floor. Many of whom have passed, and many of those left do not have good relationships with one another. This for a very many, and varied, reasons. All of the stories from the ground floor practitioners have merit. It is all just from different points of view and perspectives. The subject has taken on a "personna" almost like religion. What you believe, your "faith", is what is important. And, no, not everyone else is going to hell.

Bottom line... If you were not there, as I was not, you do not know. You will never REALLY know... Like a "buffet" you get to pick and choose what you "eat"...

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Twin Fist]

oh no, you are right, the Tracy's gain NOTHING by bad mouthing Parker

 

[Milt G.]

oh no, you are right, the Tracy's gain NOTHING by bad mouthing Parker

Hello,
I see your point, I think...?
So... What is the motive, or the impetus?

Why would they, or anyone, bad mouth Ed Parker for no apparent gain?

Thanks,
Milt G.