KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
A student of Mitose's from the late 1930's observed classes at our studio over a period of several months and claimed that what we were doing was exactly as Mitose had taught.
Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?
- Thread starter TMAA
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A student of Mitose's from the late 1930's observed classes at our studio over a period of several months and claimed that what we were doing was exactly as Mitose had taught.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
you say so, alot of people say different
eh
eh
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Hmmm. I would be a little suspicious of that (what he said, not what you said). It sounds like that fellow was just trying to acknowledge that you were all part of the same family.
I was told by a student of Mitose's who was also a student of Chow, Brother Abe and Ralph Castro, that "You can't compare what Mitose was doing in the 40's with what is being taught now because it is like trying to compare a flint-lock rifle to a machine gun." Combine that with the "Kinny garden stuff" statement from Chow, and it sounds like they're saying the same basic thing.
Sijo Emperado also said that Mitose only tried to do the "One-punch kill" stuff ala old-school Karate etc. and that there was no flow or follow-through in the techniques. Apparently Mitose was pretty good at the one-punch part since he hit Emperado's metal car fender one time, and left a large fist-shaped dent in it. But I have not really heard anything that says what he did was similar to modern Kenpo.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello, Mr. Weston...
Thank you for your messages, input and follow through!
Milt G.
Thank you for your messages, input and follow through!
Milt G.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
look at Mitose's book, the technies are all classic japanese karate stuff
no flow
nothing remotely kenpo like at all
no flow
nothing remotely kenpo like at all
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
That "manual" was intended as a basic text... That being so, the movements that are depicted are basic in nature...
Yes... No "Circling Windmills" there.
Not disputing your point, just pointing out that the text was basic, and probably would not have contained anything too intricate anyway. Just the very basics.
I agree that Kenpo has evolved much in the last 50+ years. So much so that there would be quite a difference in what is practiced today, as compared to what was taught in the beginning.
Mitose influenced Chow, who influenced Parker, who influenced his students. Everyone involved "gave" something to the Kenpo of today. Every teacher puts his/her spin on the art as it passes from generation to generation. Sometimes the "spin" is very subtle.
Yes... What Mitose taught is the "basis" of what came after. That does not mean that it is exactly the same. If you dispute that, you are disputing the basic lineage of the system.
Thanks,
Milt G.
Doc
Senior Master
Well I'll just say when I saw him "demonstrate," along with others like Huk Planas, to say nobody was impressed, would be kind. He was like a beginner who had a few lessons who clearly didn't know what he as doing.
along with other
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Yes, you have expressed this before, but I stand by my earlier comments for a couple of reasons.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the demonstration that you witnessed was towards the end of Mr. Mitose's career, yes? People change over the years, and often what someone taught and how they trained early in their career is quite different from late in their career. You've said so often regarding Mr. Parker. Not everyone changes for the better. Some people end up going down a weird road and they end up doing something that doesn't make a lot of sense. I know someone from the Wing Chun world who expressed that very thing about his own teacher. For a number of years in the 1970s, his teacher was tops, teaching good stuff and training his students hard. But then he started changing thing and my friend felt he turned it into junk. So he left him.
It's quite possible that the same thing happened with Mr. Mitose. What you witnessed is not necessarily a reflection of Mr. Mitose's career. It was just what you witnessed, at that moment in time.
I believe that Mr. Parker was making an attempt to distance himself from Mr. Mitose, probably for several reasons. The most obvious was his criminal troubles that nobody denies. Another could be his religious activities that he may have been trying to push onto people. Heck, if it was me, I would have probably done the same thing. I don't want to associate with that kind of thing either.
But that doesn't mean that Mr. Mitose had little knowledge nor little skill, altho the attempt to create distance from him may have translated into such an accusation.
You've had your experiences in the negative, regarding Mr. Mitose. I've spoken with others who feel Mr. Mitose had some strong insights and had a good system. Your opinions are your own and I respect that. But not everyone sees it the same way.
Doc
Senior Master
It was in the 60's so you would have to do the math and speculate whether that was near the end of his career. I can't do that. However, It is unfair to suggest that because Mr. Parker didn't like what Mitose was doing personally, that he would disparage his martial arts skill. Mr. Parker always made the point that Mitose, from the first time he saw him, was not very impressive, and that he was conversely impressively overwhelmed by Chow's capability, and that is why Mitose was never his teacher. The difference for me is I have no need to make an excuse for what someone might have been, or speculate on what they became. I made a judgement on the man's ability based on what I saw, not what I heard, hypothesized, or rationalized. I didn't know the man, but his ability, agenda, and what he was seemed apparent and is well documented outside of martial arts worshippers. I have no problem that some have an opposing view, because it doesn't affect my lineage, or anything I do. However my education and profession pushes me more toward the objective facts, over speculative subjective rationalizations which can obscure and explain anything you want to embrace.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm not making excuses for anybody, nor am I a martial arts worshipper. I'm actually a big skeptic when it comes to most people, including a lot of famous people.
I do, however, suspect that the real picture regarding Mr. Mitose includes more than your or even Mr. Parker's experiences with him.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
I think that if it were not for James Mitose the Kenpo we have today may not even exsist. It would certainly be different.
Whether or not Mitose's skill level was "this, or that" he had a profound influence on our art in its infancy. Personally, I have no idea of his personal skill level. I never saw him. I do know that often times perception is key. I have seen various practitioners videos that I thought were great, and that others disliked... Some strongly. The opposite is true as well. May just be a Ford/Chevy arguement?
The fact that Thomas Young and William Chow were Mitose's students says something. I am sure he had some positive influence on them. They must have felt he had something to teach?
Sad about Mitose's legal issues, though. Many have negative memories of him because of that, and that alone. I am sorry for what became of him, but it is what it is. I try to focus on the positive things he did for our art. Not easy, sometimes.
If your lineage is Ed Parker, then it is William Chow and James Mitose, too.
A good discussion. Thanks to all!
Especially to those that were there...
Milt G.
I think that if it were not for James Mitose the Kenpo we have today may not even exsist. It would certainly be different.
Whether or not Mitose's skill level was "this, or that" he had a profound influence on our art in its infancy. Personally, I have no idea of his personal skill level. I never saw him. I do know that often times perception is key. I have seen various practitioners videos that I thought were great, and that others disliked... Some strongly.
The opposite is true as well. May just be a Ford/Chevy arguement? The fact that Thomas Young and William Chow were Mitose's students says something. I am sure he had some positive influence on them. They must have felt he had something to teach?
Sad about Mitose's legal issues, though. Many have negative memories of him because of that, and that alone. I am sorry for what became of him, but it is what it is. I try to focus on the positive things he did for our art. Not easy, sometimes.
If your lineage is Ed Parker, then it is William Chow and James Mitose, too.
A good discussion. Thanks to all!
Especially to those that were there...
Milt G.
Personally...I wasn't there. Doc was, he knows what he saw. I don't.
What it brings to mind is something minor I did when I was younger and cockier. When I was in my 20s I learned a data protocol that is not known by a lot of people and not used at all outside of large telecommunications networks. Lets call the protocol ZYX. My former colleagues used to shout across the office to my cube calling for an "ZYX expert" if something broke. My ego enjoyed that very much When I initially signed up for an Instant Messenger account, I used the screen name "ZYXexpert". My colleagues thought it was a hoot, and so did I.
Now that I'm I'm 40 and I still have that screen name, which looks a bit silly. I don't dare change it, too many people in my industry know me by that nickname. I have gotten a lot of mileage from the nickname but it carried a price: I ended up setting an unnaturally high standard of performance for myself, a standard that I cannot always deliver. Usually it results an occasional bout of good-natured ribbing but there have probably been a few times where I have disappointed some because they were expecting (or hoping) for me to have an answer to a situation that I could not provide.
Mitose carried quite a title with him. I don't recall which one but I believe it was along the lines of Soke or Grandmaster. I suspect it was difficult to know the man in a martial arts contest without knowing his title. Perhaps differing perceptions of what a Soke should look like lead to different perceptions of what he was able to do? I don't know.
What it brings to mind is something minor I did when I was younger and cockier. When I was in my 20s I learned a data protocol that is not known by a lot of people and not used at all outside of large telecommunications networks. Lets call the protocol ZYX. My former colleagues used to shout across the office to my cube calling for an "ZYX expert" if something broke. My ego enjoyed that very much
When I initially signed up for an Instant Messenger account, I used the screen name "ZYXexpert". My colleagues thought it was a hoot, and so did I.Now that I'm I'm 40 and I still have that screen name, which looks a bit silly. I don't dare change it, too many people in my industry know me by that nickname. I have gotten a lot of mileage from the nickname but it carried a price: I ended up setting an unnaturally high standard of performance for myself, a standard that I cannot always deliver. Usually it results an occasional bout of good-natured ribbing but there have probably been a few times where I have disappointed some because they were expecting (or hoping) for me to have an answer to a situation that I could not provide.
Mitose carried quite a title with him. I don't recall which one but I believe it was along the lines of Soke or Grandmaster. I suspect it was difficult to know the man in a martial arts contest without knowing his title. Perhaps differing perceptions of what a Soke should look like lead to different perceptions of what he was able to do? I don't know.
Doc
Senior Master
That's the difference between you and I. You SUSPECT. I don't have to. I EXPERIENCED first hand. I see your suspicions and raise you my experience. We both however are entitled.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Well, let's see: Chow, Parker, Emperado, (my other source who wishes to not be named in a public forum, and since he is a 9th degree in my system, and friend, I will honor that) and Doc, have all had first hand experience with Mitose's skill. They all came to roughly the same conclusion. If he was hiding his art, he hid it quite well I'd say.
But perhaps something else needs to be said: "Judo" Gene Labell once said that when Karate first came to the USA it was pretty impressive because no one had ever seen a roundhouse kick etc., but now when we look back at those early movies of the Karate fighters, many look primitive by today's standards. However impressive Mitose looked to the Hawaiians in the 1940's, he didn't impress them for very long it seems. Chow and others moved past what he was doing in a very short period of time and never looked back.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Dan, email on it's way to you
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Mr. Weston,
I fully agree. When things are new they tend to be more exciting.
The martial arts, in general, have come a long way. Very little of it is "new" anymore. It is easy to be exposed to it of late. Unheard of towards the beginning. There were few Shodan in the 60's. Even less practitioners "of rank" back then. All you knew is how good your teacher was, as you had much less to compare him/her to.
The practitioners, by and large, are much more skilled these days then say, 40 or 50 years ago, overall. I think competent instruction is easier to come by. Perhaps "incompetent", too.
Even Bruce Lee would have some work to do to catch up with some, these days.
Thank you,
Milt G.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained? Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
thats true, Doc never saw him kill anyone. Oh wait, we knew about that already.........
I have to add, that none of the Tracy's ever knew the man either.
I have to add, that none of the Tracy's ever knew the man either.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
yes, i know. And I've spoken with people who believe otherwise. I've also spoken with people who very vehemently feel that Mr. Parker was quite lousy. I recognize that these opinions often come with biases and/or political motivations, so I don't tend to give them much shrift. I do know that Al Tracy always said that Mr. Parker's skills were tops.
ya, I've heard similar.
from what I understand of Mr. Mitose, from what little I know of what our system has pulled in from him, it seems that he was going down a path that required the willingness to put aside quick gains for further gains down the road. On a superficial level, for someone who doesn't understand the method, it can appear unimpressive. But when it's done well, by someone of high skill, it can be very effective.
If the Hawaiians of post-1940s, including Chow, didn't dig into what he was doing, it wouldn't surprise me that they would have rejected it.
And I'm not trying to diminish what people like Chow were doing either. Everyone chooses their own path, and Chow was very very good. I'm not saying that Mitose's path was better. I'm not trying to elevate him above anyone else.
I'm only saying that Mr. Mitose represented another path, and for those who have chosen to follow it and study it, it does lead to great benefits.
That's always been my point in this debate that always seems to rear its head from time to time. I simply believe that writing off Mitose as a no-account, is myopic. I think he had some good things to contribute, and he did contribute in his own way. But I also understand that many people did not choose his way, and in fact chose to disassociate from him. As I stated earlier, given his criminal troubles and his (possibly pushy) religious leanings, I would have probably done the same. But that doesn't mean he had nothing to offer, for those who were receptive to him.
