Kenpo and Kung Fu

[Manny]

So basically you have no idea what Kung Fu is and are basing this on what you have seen on TV which is mostly fake and only for movies.

Might I suggest before you write of an entire cultures system of MA you actually go and see what it REALLY is and not base it on movies.

Saying you do not like Kung Fu based on Movies is much the same as saying I think rabbits are pretty cool because of what Bugs Bunny did on TV. Or saying all Americans are cowboys because that is what I see in the movies.

I can also then, based on the way you are judging kung fu, say that all TKD is useless and only good for sport with no real life applications since that is all I see. However I was old school TKD and I know better. You sir are way off and have no idea what Kung Fu is and have no experience in it as it is defined as a Chinese Martial Art but yet you dismiss it as no good because you saw it in a movie

You are wrong sir!! in fact when I was younger I had contact with Kung Fu, I saw it and took a few lessons and really don't like it period. Yes I saw a couple of movies about kung fu, lyke enter the dragon amoung others (very nice movie BTW). When I was younger and before taking TKD classes I had some exposure with Kung Fu and don't like it period. Maybe I know two or three styles of Kung Fu and not 25 or so lyke you do but even this does not make you an expert.

I can give you more arguments and can tell you all the things I don't like but it's pointless here, if you dislike TKD good for you, it really does not matter to me.

Please take the sugestions you give me and save them to you please, I really don't need them.

Thank you any way for contributing to my post.

Respectfully.

Manny.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You are wrong sir!! in fact when I was younger I had contact with Kung Fu, I saw it and took a few lessons and really don't like it period. Yes I saw a couple of movies about kung fu, lyke enter the dragon amoung others (very nice movie BTW). When I was younger and before taking TKD classes I had some exposure with Kung Fu and don't like it period. Maybe I know two or three styles of Kung Fu and not 25 or so lyke you do but even this does not make you an expert.

I can give you more arguments and can tell you all the things I don't like but it's pointless here, if you dislike TKD good for you, it really does not matter to me.

Please take the sugestions you give me and save them to you please, I really don't need them.

Thank you any way for contributing to my post.

Respectfully.

Manny.

Nope, I'm not wrong and the fact you continue to use the term kung fu by saying you trained kung fu proves that. Kung Fu is a generic term for Chinese martial arts, albeit the wrong term but that is what we are stuck with. Much like Chinese is not so much a language as it is a family of languages.

But then it is a personal preference after all and if you don't like whatever CMA style you once trained and want to judge all styles of CMA based on that little bit of exposure and say you don't like all Chinese styles based on that so be it.

And please show me where I siad I don't like TKD

 

[DocWard]

If you had bothered to read the entire thread you would see I tried that here…. and it failed

But thanks for the thought just the same

I read the entire thread before making my comment, and it wasn't directed at any one person. In fact, I found myself nodding in agreement with much of what you wrote in the post you reference, at least until my jaw dropped from the sheer number of styles you named.

Manny, perhaps it is because of the fact that English is a second language for you, I don't know, but it seems you dislike the styles of Chinese arts you have been exposed to, notand those you visualize as being "Kung Fu" based upon what you have seen on TV and in movies. Perhaps it was because you saw them as to "flashy" or "flowing" without enough emphasis on power, or thought they were impractical, I don't know. Perhaps you realize that the movies are simply unrealistic, and that gave you a bad feeling toward them

I think I speak for many when I say that to generalize ALL Chinese arts and dislike them based upon a few is kind of like saying you don't like ANY U.S. states because you visited Florida.

At any rate, I would ask you to take what several have said here to heart, and keep an open mind about the Chinese arts as a whole. There are some that have very "hard' aspects, and some that have very practical applications. I am confident there are a number that would work very well in conjunction with TKD and Kenpo.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I read the entire thread before making my comment, and it wasn't directed at any one person. In fact, I found myself nodding in agreement with much of what you wrote in the post you reference, at least until my jaw dropped from the sheer number of styles you named.

My apologies, I should not have made the assumption :asian:

 

[DocWard]

My apologies, I should not have made the assumption :asian:

Thanks, no apologies necessary.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You are wrong sir!! in fact when I was younger I had contact with Kung Fu, I saw it and took a few lessons and really don't like it period. Yes I saw a couple of movies about kung fu, lyke enter the dragon amoung others (very nice movie BTW). When I was younger and before taking TKD classes I had some exposure with Kung Fu and don't like it period. Maybe I know two or three styles of Kung Fu and not 25 or so lyke you do but even this does not make you an expert.

I can give you more arguments and can tell you all the things I don't like but it's pointless here, if you dislike TKD good for you, it really does not matter to me.

Please take the sugestions you give me and save them to you please, I really don't need them.

Thank you any way for contributing to my post.

Respectfully.

Manny.

Just an opinion, but TKD is Kung Fu.
Sean

 

[Xinglu]

Just an opinion, but TKD is Kung Fu.
Sean

More accurately TKD is wushu (武&#26415, and through hard work, good gongfu (功&#22827 can be developed.

Gongfu you see, is skill achieved through hard work.

So one could see a TKD person in action and say "Your gongfu is strong/good." But what was said is not that your style is good, rather that your skill level in said style is good.

In summery:
The wushu of TKD can produce students with strong/good gongfu. Just like any other form of wushu.

 

[Touch Of Death]

More accurately TKD is wushu (武&#26415, and through hard work, good gongfu (功&#22827 can be developed.

Gongfu you see, is skill achieved through hard work.

So one could see a TKD person in action and say "Your gongfu is strong/good." But what was said is not that your style is good, rather that your skill level in said style is good.

In summery:
The wushu of TKD can produce students with strong/good gongfu. Just like any other form of wushu.

I stand corrected.:ultracool
Sean

 

[DocWard]

I stand corrected.:ultracool
Sean

I sit confused! I'm sure I will figure it out eventually though.

Back on topic, though it has been far too long since I have practiced or studied, but I seem to recall my instructor saying a few techniques and perhaps a Kata come from Hung Gar. As I am planning on getting back into it as soon as I can figure out how to put a few more hours in the day, I will make sure I ask!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I sit confused! I'm sure I will figure it out eventually though.

Back on topic, though it has been far too long since I have practiced or studied, but I seem to recall my instructor saying a few techniques and perhaps a Kata come from Hung Gar. As I am planning on getting back into it as soon as I can figure out how to put a few more hours in the day, I will make sure I ask!

Well, the Koreans claim to have had some variation variation of TKD since the time of Christ, but I would contend that it was longer, and just as in Europe, wave after wave of invaders and hordes, were constantly causing the korean area trouble. With that in mind just as french, english, and nordic things are catagorized as Germanic, Korean martial arts fall under CMA. Debate on the issue is just subjective national stuff.
Sean

 

[Xinglu]

I stand corrected.:ultracool
Sean

No worries, like Xue, I get a little uppity when when terms are taken out of context and then linguistically abused.

Ignorance is something we should all strive to transcend, and for the most part, people on MT are dedicated to that, something I really like about this place

However, it is very frustrating when you here people say I don't like gongfu, when they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

For example, I might say I don't like care for they type of wushu I studied, however I am greatly impressed by Bruce Lee's gongfu! That would lead me to look at what kind of wushu he studied, and look at other forms of wushu with similar doctrines. Going further with the Bruce Lee example, I would have little interest in Cai Li Fo (蔡李&#20315 or Baguazhang (八卦&#25484 as they would be very circular. However, Yong Chun (詠&#26149 and Xingyiquan (形意&#25331 would probably appeal greatly due to their more linear doctrines.

If we are abusing the Chinese language, all would be "gongfu," yet there are few similarities between the two doctrines! Their tactics and strategies are thusly entirely different. To experience even one of those arts, gives no basis to judge the other four either. As the differences between even Bagua and Cai Li Fo are extreme despite their similar doctrine.

Coming back to the original post though, one cannot have a fundamental prejudice against the Chinese Wushu and have a legitimate appreciation for Kenpo, particularly EPAK since the influence is heavy. To appreciate the merits of one is to appreciate the merits of the other, at the very least, the arts that contributed to influencing Parker.

 

[DocWard]

Well, the Koreans claim to have had some variation variation of TKD since the time of Christ, but I would contend that it was longer, and just as in Europe, wave after wave of invaders and hordes, were constantly causing the korean area trouble. With that in mind just as french, english, and nordic things are catagorized as Germanic, Korean martial arts fall under CMA. Debate on the issue is just subjective national stuff.
Sean

Interesting point!

 

[Xinglu]

double post, sorry!

 

[Xinglu]

I sit confused! I'm sure I will figure it out eventually though.

Let me attempt to clarify through simplification.

This is as simple as I can make it:

Wushu = Martial Arts

Gongfu = Skill achieved through hard work

A chef could have good gongfu, as could a painter. It is not exclusive to the MA community.

A Kenpoka could have good gongfu in the wushu of Kenpo...

In fact it would be more proper to just say one had good gongfu in Kenpo since wushu is a vary generic term. In chinese if you mean a certain style, refer to it by name. But I used that example to show it's english equivalency

Is that more clear?

 

[DocWard]

Let me attempt to clarify through simplification.

This is as simple as I can make it:

Wushu = Martial Arts

Gongfu = Skill achieved through hard work

A chef could have good gongfu, as could a painter. It is not exclusive to the MA community.

A Kenpoka could have good gongfu in the wushu of Kenpo...

In fact it would be more proper to just say one had good gongfu in Kenpo since wushu is a vary generic term. In chinese if you mean a certain style, refer to it by name. But I used that example to show it's english equivalency

Is that more clear?

Very much so, thank you! I can be particularly dense on occasion. I think it was the definition of Wushu that threw me.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Coming back to the original post though, one cannot have a fundamental prejudice against the Chinese Wushu and have a legitimate appreciation for Kenpo, particularly EPAK since the influence is heavy. To appreciate the merits of one is to appreciate the merits of the other, at the very least, the arts that contributed to influencing Parker.

Daniel- At least say "In my opinion one cannot have a fundamental..." I say this because I totally disagree. I really do not like Wushu and most other Chinese styles where the moves are huge and flamboyant (insert Jet Li movie here> ) but I have a sincere appreciation for Kenpo.

I also enjoy 9-ball in billiards but have a deep seated dislike for the more common 8 ball game.

I really appreciate Van Gogh's "Cafe at night" but do not like his paintings of flowers. How is this possible? How can I appreciate one without the other? Dunno, but I do...I could go on and on with these awkward analogies but I think you get the point.

Our system has quite a bit of kung-fu influence (tighter circles and less wasted motion) but that does not require me to "appreciate the merits" of the other Chinese styles that do not utilize the tighter circles and a reasonable economy of motion.

Manny- I am with ya! I love Kenpo but hate Wushu and if someone wants to tell me that EPAK and Wushu are even remotely similar, I am going to break out my "flask". LOL

 

[Manny]

Just an opinion, but TKD is Kung Fu.
Sean

Jajajajaja good one!!! good one. Then I habe been a Kung Fu guy for several years.

Manny

 

[Xinglu]

I really do not like Wushu and most other Chinese styles...

Manny- I am with ya! I love Kenpo but hate Wushu and if someone wants to tell me that EPAK and Wushu are even remotely similar, I am going to break out my "flask". LOL

Really? You dislike Martial Arts? Then why do you train?

Wushu is not a style, it is a broad term for a wide range of different types of martial arts.

So what you just said was "I love Kenpo but hate martial arts."

You also said, "...if someone wants to tell me that EPAK and martial arts are even remotely similar..."

Do you see how non-sensical that is?

Most Americans have a very myopic view of the term Wushu incorrectly labeling it as a specific style. The National Wushu Team (for china) consists of practitioners who are "experts" in specific styles. They train for demonstrations and competition, but they are still an amalgam of different arts competing under the same banner.

Our system has quite a bit of kung-fu influence (tighter circles and less wasted motion) but that does not require me to "appreciate the merits" of the other Chinese styles that do not utilize the tighter circles and a reasonable economy of motion.

Using the language correctly it would better read "Our system has quite a bit of TCMA influence."

-OR-

"Our wushu has quite a bit of influence from TCMAs who's focus is economy of movement."

Wushu = generic term meaning martial arts.
Gongfu = skill achieved through hard work.

To say a system has gongfu influence is non-sensical. To say it is influence by certain forms of wushu found in China would make sense.

Daniel- At least say "In my opinion one cannot have a fundamental..." I say this because I totally disagree. I really do not like Wushu and most other Chinese styles where the moves are huge and flamboyant (insert Jet Li movie here> ) but I have a sincere appreciation for Kenpo.

Respectfully, I disagree. I was clear and said exactly what I meant. "To appreciate the merits of one is to appreciate the merits of the other, at the very least, the arts that contributed to influencing Parker."

I said the merits, this does not imply the entire art. Furthermore, if you appreciate the merits of EPAK, then you appreciate the same merits that are found in CLF since it was a contributor. This in no way implies that one must love CLF. Just appreciate the merits that are common.

What appreciating the merits DOES imply is that one cannot have a universal dislike of all TCMA (wushu).

 

[Manny]

Daniel- At least say "In my opinion one cannot have a fundamental..." I say this because I totally disagree. I really do not like Wushu and most other Chinese styles where the moves are huge and flamboyant (insert Jet Li movie here> ) but I have a sincere appreciation for Kenpo.

I also enjoy 9-ball in billiards but have a deep seated dislike for the more common 8 ball game.

I really appreciate Van Gogh's "Cafe at night" but do not like his paintings of flowers. How is this possible? How can I appreciate one without the other? Dunno, but I do...I could go on and on with these awkward analogies but I think you get the point.

Our system has quite a bit of kung-fu influence (tighter circles and less wasted motion) but that does not require me to "appreciate the merits" of the other Chinese styles that do not utilize the tighter circles and a reasonable economy of motion.

Manny- I am with ya! I love Kenpo but hate Wushu and if someone wants to tell me that EPAK and Wushu are even remotely similar, I am going to break out my "flask". LOL

I feel the same my friend, I like Kenpo karate but don't like wushu.

I don't like chicken period, if you invited me to dinner at your home and the oly thing to eat is chicken I will eat it for don't spect I would have a second plate, however if you invited me to dinner in a Restaurant I won't esat chicken period.

There are people who likes and loves wushu and that's fine, simply I don't like it.

Manny

 

[Xinglu]

I feel the same my friend, I like Kenpo karate but don't like wushu.

I don't like chicken period, if you invited me to dinner at your home and the oly thing to eat is chicken I will eat it for don't spect I would have a second plate, however if you invited me to dinner in a Restaurant I won't esat chicken period.

There are people who likes and loves wushu and that's fine, simply I don't like it.

Manny

Much better usage! Though wushu means martial art, so to say you don't like the chinese wushu would be more correct. Because Kenpo and TKD are different kinds of wushu