ok...I'm confused

[still learning]

Hello, Just an opinion here....today it does not matter which spelling it use.

No one really knows which one was use first "Kempo or Kenpo"....lost in translations over time....TODAY BOTH ARE USE for the same meaning....

It was written down the way is was prounce...hence the different spellings. ...Kem... on Ken almost sound the same...each of the past instructors had accents of their own langauge...so tranlations were written down by those who written what they heard.

If you were there? .. part of the class would have written several forms of the Kempo/Kenpo...if they were recording the class.

Which is the right one? ....NO one really knows.....Both stand for the same thing!

Aloha......Kan-po or Kam-po or does the "e" is correct too?

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Just another example of the name game. Okinawa Kenpo under Nakamura Sensei was divided into Ryukyu Hon Kenpo under Odo Sensei and Ryukyu Kempo under Oyata Sensei.

 

[Ray]

Hi folks!
The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
"law of the fist china hand"
This page might be of some help
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/history.html

Mr. Rebelo is absolutely correct. I was typing from memory and not from my collected reference material. "Tang" is a reference to the Tang dynasty (meaning "Chinese").

The old and new kanji can be found on wikipedia. I have another reference at home that tells tells about the "meeting of the masters" who got together and changed the kanji. It contains "prettier" kanji. If I find it, I'll post the link to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate

 

[Xue Sheng]

空手 Kong Shou = Empty Hand

空手道 Kong Shou Dao = Empty Hand Way – Which is Chinese for Karate

I am getting less confused about the origin and more confused about the name and that is likely due to my knowing a lot of Chinese history, my meager language skills in Mandarin and the fact my wife is native Chinese and she also speaks Japanese

Tang does not mean Chinese, at least not to a Chinese person. Tang is a reference to a Dynasty Tang Dynasty 618 AD - 907 AD (http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/tang.html) which if you look at the Characters for Tang Dynasty they translate into English as Tang.

However if Tang is important to Kenpo then it could be a reference to origin as to when it came from China. This does make some sense because that is when Shaolin appears in writting for the first time in the early 700s.

 

[Ray]

空手 Kong Shou = Empty Hand

空手道 Kong Shou Dao = Empty Hand Way – Which is Chinese for Karate

I am getting less confused about the origin and more confused about the name and that is likely due to my knowing a lot of Chinese history, my meager language skills in Mandarin and the fact my wife is native Chinese and she also speaks Japanese

Tang does not mean Chinese, at least not to a Chinese person. Tang is a reference to a Dynasty Tang Dynasty 618 AD - 907 AD (http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/tang.html) which if you look at the Characters for Tang Dynasty they translate into English as Tang.

However if Tang is important to Kenpo then it could be a reference to origin as to when it came from China. This does make some sense because that is when Shaolin appears in writting for the first time in the early 700s.

Nevertheless, the term karate meaning "empty hand" was not used until the early 1900's and was brought about by Japanese and Okinawan "masters" in a meeting in Japan. Previous to that it was "Tang Hand" with a Japanese pronunciation of "karate."

The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers. All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese." One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase "Chinese Gung Fu."

Unfortunately good fighters are not necessarily always highly literate.

Whatever the meanings were in the past I don't know. English words have been known to change meanings as usages have changed.

 

[Brother John]

Nevertheless, the term karate meaning "empty hand" was not used until the early 1900's and was brought about by Japanese and Okinawan "masters" in a meeting in Japan. Previous to that it was "Tang Hand" with a Japanese pronunciation of "karate."

The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers. All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese." One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase "Chinese Gung Fu."

THe thing is, when doing historical research like this, we have to take many things into account. For instance, this is a trend that's crossed SEVERAL cultures and we are now tracking it backward. So we take our understanding of it and look back to the culture we got it from, but we do so with particularly western eyes and biases. The Okinawan's were the ones that decided to brand their systems as "Kara-te". Originally it was simply called "Te", meaning 'fist'....sort of like saying "Boxing". So if Kara meant "Chinese"...then Kara-te, in it's original derivation would indeed be "Chinese boxing".

Okinawa was (and is) a VERY interesting culture. They had much in common with Japan, even MORE in common with China...with whom they enjoyed open trade and exchange of culture for Centuries! Their language is a strange amalgum between these two.....with a great deal that is particular to the unique demands of living on their rocky little chain of islands and drawing their living from the sea and trade with their neighbors.

The "Classics" were a HUGE influence on education in the Ryukyu Island archipelago......of which "Okinawa" is simply the biggest and most identifiable island. The "Classics" being the Confusian, Buddhist and Daoist doctrines & writings. The ruling class of Okinawa placed GREAT emphasis on a classical education. The time of Okinawa's greatest development and time of peace was during the Tang dynasty, in which the course of cultural cross-pollination from China to Okinawa and relative peace with Japan (who was dealing more with resolving it's own internal Feudal strife and therefore had better things to do that sail down and harras the Ryukyu's, who were being supported by the powerful Tang navy/army) FLOWED. Economically and financially, things were GREAT! The Kings of the Ryukyu islands identified with the Tang dynasty as though it were their own dynasty. So much so that the very term "Tang" was synonymous with "China". See where I'm going with this???? The cultural mix, of course, included Te masters studying Chuan-Fa from Buddist monks that came to preach/serve in the islands and Te masters traveling to study or trade in China. The higher classes in Okinawa would hire tutors and instructors from China, who were often Buddist or Taoist priests.....who took their physical training as another branch of their instruction.

See where I'm taking this?
Okinawa spent CENTURIES revering China, especially from the Tang dynasty. To them the term "Tang" was a direct connotation to what they saw as the best of what they recieved from China. It's thought that during the strife that ended in the downfall of the Tang dynasty that the Ryukyu islands were both a source of back up fighters (mostly mercenary) and a place of refuge for scholars and priests who'd been ardent supporters of the Tang dynasty.

So....it was a natural outgrowth of this that the term "Tang", which in the peculiar dialect of the Okinawan upper-class, was pronounced "Kara"....would be appended to the highest quality martial arts that was one of the cultural vestges of marriage between the Ryukyu and "Tang" traditions. Thus "Karate".

In later years/decades, when SOME of the masters (relatively few really, mostly stemming from Funakoshi sensei and Miyagi Sensei) were seeking to get Karate accepted in mainland Japan, they were advised by the Butokukai, the martial arts governing board of Japan, that the exact kanji for "kara" denoted China and was therefore likely to NOT be well accepted amongst the meijei restoration affected Japanese Nationalist Party, which pretty much called the shots at the time. I believe it was Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, that suggested to Funakoshi sensei that he change the Kanji for "Tang" to a homonym Kanji, that's still pronounced "Kara", but means 'empty'. Thus we hear today that "Karate is the art of the empty hand". Then Dr. Kano suggested that Funakoshi adopt the suffix "Do" to denote that he too accepted the essence of the Meijei restoration philosophy....just like Ju-do and Ken-do and Kyu-do and Aiki-do already had. SO .... we end up with "Karate-do".

So really, when we look back to try to find roots, we need to realize that things have to be looked at through multiple cultural lenses and that words and ideas have had years to gestate and fold....so that now, we end up with:
Kenpo Karate-do = Chuan-Fa Tang-hand way

Hope I made sense....

Your Brother
John

PS: I've never heard the term "Shou" used in this mix, but then Mr. Rebelo has more experience in the arts than I do. You'd have to ask him about that then.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It made perfect sense, I would have no idea as to what the Japanese used to refer to China at the time and it would make sense if they used Tang since they were there during the Tang Dynasty. All I am saying is that from a Chinese perspective Tang means Tang not China if you look at the Chinese character for it. Also China to a Chinese speaker is Zhong Guo not Tang. Just as to Japanese speakers it is Karate and to Chinese speakers it is Kong Shou Dao. And that is what you get if you show the Kanji to a native Chinese speaker.

And I am also saying if they did refer to China as Tang then the origin of Kenpo/Kempo could be Shaolin

.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The meaning of the "kenpo karate" kanji has been translated for me by several native speakers. All have said that a literal translation would not make sense; each has identified the "Tang" kanji as a reference to "Chinese." One highly educated young man from china said although the literal translation would be "fist method Chinese hand" he would use the phrase "Chinese Gung Fu."

I am not doubting this the kanji as translated by a native Chinese speaker is not Tang that is all. I have no idea what a native Japanese speaker would tranlate it as. The kanji can be exactly the same as the Chinese Chracter, and in many cases is, but they will not be translated the same.

 

[Ray]

THe thing is, when doing historical research like this, we have to take many things into account.

See where I'm going with this????

I believe it was Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, that suggested to Funakoshi sensei that he change the Kanji for "Tang" to a homonym Kanji, that's still pronounced "Kara", but means 'empty'. Thus we hear today that "Karate is the art of the empty hand". Then Dr. Kano suggested that Funakoshi adopt the suffix "Do" to denote that he too accepted the essence of the Meijei restoration philosophy....just like Ju-do and Ken-do and Kyu-do and Aiki-do already had. SO .... we end up with "Karate-do".

So really, when we look back to try to find roots, we need to realize that things have to be looked at through multiple cultural lenses and that words and ideas have had years to gestate and fold....so that now, we end up with:
Kenpo Karate-do = Chuan-Fa Tang-hand way

Hope I made sense....

Your Brother
John

PS: I've never heard the term "Shou" used in this mix, but then Mr. Rebelo has more experience in the arts than I do. You'd have to ask him about that then.

John, I've got one word for you: succinct.

I see where you're going with this: into the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy. My Kenpo Karate is not Japanese Karate-do. Do means way, Po means way.

I don't need to ask Mr. Rebelo about "hand" being "shou" in Chinese. There are several on-line guides; I've also visited libraries that have things called "books" (like English-Chinese dictionaries). I've also had the word pronounced by native Chinese speakers (notice the "s" denoting plural). You can refer to: http://zhongwen.com/
Look up "hand" in english, you'll see the same character as pronounced "te" in Japanese with its Chinese pronunciaction "shou." There is another on-line resource that will give an audio file too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Written Chinese is complicated depending on when something was written can make a big difference.

Example my first CMA sifu went to my wife (both born and raised in China) to double check his translation of an old Qigong test. My first CMA sifu is older than my wife but many qigong texts are old and my first sifu knows simplified Chinese no ancient and he had messed up the translation. My wife is trained in simplified and a few older due to her profession and she straightened it out for him, His translation was based on his knowledge of simplified and a few mistranslated words really messed things up.

We are talking likely something form the Tang Dynasty so if there was any Chinese written about it many of the Native Chinese today could not read it properly. However form the Japanese perspective things get much easier, or at least that is my understanding of Japanese, older text are more easily translated by modern Japanese.

And although there may be other words for them in Chinese

Zhang means palm
Shou means hand

But a tone change can change the meaning

The characters for Tang Dynasty are here,
http://library.thinkquest.org/12255/library/dynasty/tang.html
I would be interested in hearing what a Japanese person would read that as and translate it as

 

[Brother John]

John, I've got one word for you: succinct.

I see where you're going with this: into the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy. My Kenpo Karate is not Japanese Karate-do. Do means way, Po means way.

I don't need to ask Mr. Rebelo about "hand" being "shou" in Chinese. There are several on-line guides; I've also visited libraries that have things called "books" (like English-Chinese dictionaries). I've also had the word pronounced by native Chinese speakers (notice the "s" denoting plural). You can refer to: http://zhongwen.com/
Look up "hand" in english, you'll see the same character as pronounced "te" in Japanese with its Chinese pronunciaction "shou." There is another on-line resource that will give an audio file too.

Hey Ray-
Thanks for the useful link.

I'm sorry you found what I had to say as coming from

the nether-regions surrounding irrelavancy

Dang it! I hate being irrelavent.

I had thought that the purpose of this thread was to shed more light on the name of the systems that fall under the headings of Kenpo, Kempo ...etc.
The words "Kenpo" and "Kempo" aren't that hard to figure out. The issue under scrutiny lately has been the term "Karate" and especially why they should use the word or kanji "Kara" for "Tang" when they

1st: I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from.

2nd: Xue Sheng didn't understand why they used the word/Kanji "Tang" when implying the term "Chinese". What I offered is easily verifiable in ....what did you call it???..........oh yeah....Libraries. (why the nasty tone??)) The Okinawan's venerated China and ALL the more so for the growth they had while deeply associated with them during the prosperous "Tang" dynasty. So they refer to the products of that age (commonly) as "Tang".

It's sort of like the architecture and decor that was popularized during the Elizabethan age. You'd not refer to a famous painting as "An English Elizabethan painting".....just "Elizabethan"....and you'd still know what they were talking about. OR: maybe a little closer to home in this context: a "Ming Vase"......you don't need to say it's a "Chinese Ming Vase"....if you say "Ming" people already know the where and when that you are refering too. If someone presents you with an authenticated "Ming Vase" you don't then say "Oh yes? What area of the world was it produced in? Hungary?"
Sam Ting.

As for the use of "Shou", I'm NOT saying it's wrong. I've simply never heard it applied to the systems of Kem/npo. Furthermore: I'm not saying that YOU (Ray) need to confer with Mr. Rebelo. I had thought that Mr. Rebelo had introduced the term into this conversation...and since it's something I simply do NOT know about...I suggested people debate or question him about how he used it and why. If YOU were the one, and I'm mistaken, then maybe they should discuss it with you.

I'm not taking up a position contrary to you, just offering forward what I know.

Thanks

I'll strive to be more "relavent" in the future.

Your Brother
John

 

[Ray]

1st: I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from.

2) Mitose chose the term Kenpo Ju Jitsu. 2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it? 3) Chow (his father was chinese) used the term Kenpo Karate. Whether he was conversant in Chinese and/or Japanese I don't know. It has been said that he was no scholar but definately a great fighter. 4) The kenpo creed and the actual history of kenpo are two completely different things...I understand that Parker also used the term Chinese Kenpo at one time to describe his art; and the characters that were used on the kenpo crest is T'ang Hands, not Empty Hands.

What I offered is easily verifiable in ....what did you call it???..........oh yeah....Libraries. (why the nasty tone??))...

As for the use of "Shou", I'm NOT saying it's wrong. I've simply never heard it applied to the systems of Kem/npo.

Then look at the characters used, look them up, see what the pronunciation is in Chinese and then you will know. It is better to do that first, rather than to lead people astray.

Furthermore: I'm not saying that YOU (Ray) need to confer with Mr. Rebelo. I had thought that Mr. Rebelo had introduced the term into this conversation...and since it's something I simply do NOT know about...I suggested people debate or question him about how he used it and why. If YOU were the one, and I'm mistaken, then maybe they should discuss it with you.

yes, Mr. R introduced the correct term into the conversation. Even so, the characters exist in Parker's kenpo; they are easily looked up. Mr. R is correct about what they mean and it is independantly verifiable.

I'll strive to be more "relavent" in the future.

I look forward to it.

 

[Brother John]

2) Mitose chose the term Kenpo Ju Jitsu. 2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it? 3) Chow (his father was chinese) used the term Kenpo Karate. Whether he was conversant in Chinese and/or Japanese I don't know. It has been said that he was no scholar but definately a great fighter. 4) The kenpo creed and the actual history of kenpo are two completely different things...I understand that Parker also used the term Chinese Kenpo at one time to describe his art; and the characters that were used on the kenpo crest is T'ang Hands, not Empty Hands.

Then look at the characters used, look them up, see what the pronunciation is in Chinese and then you will know. It is better to do that first, rather than to lead people astray.

yes, Mr. R introduced the correct term into the conversation. Even so, the characters exist in Parker's kenpo; they are easily looked up. Mr. R is correct about what they mean and it is independantly verifiable.
I look forward to it.

I think you're correct, Mitose did use jujitsu, Chow lumped it under the term "Karate".

2) You are telling me that you knew the motiviation and the mind of Parker when he penned the creed and what exactly he meant to convey when he wrote it?

Are YOU telling me that you do???
....gimme a break.....
I said nothing of the sort. I merely was saying that the term "Karate" has meant both empty hand and Chinese hand and it's my belief, due to the wording of the creed, that it's the "Empty Hand" that he was implying. At the very least he accepted that underlying philosophy.

This is a very strange little hill you've chosen to die on, but you're free to whatever hill you're worthy of.

I don't care to look up the term you suggest, because I simply do not care enough to give a rip. I was offering my thoughts and conjecture on the subject, not "Fight" over some dogma.

If it makes you're coco warmer to be rude and snotty about what character was and wasn't implied in what history, GOOD FOR YOU RAY. I've not "lead anyone astray". That's silly. I've put forth my thoughts on a thing. You don't like them. Ok. deal with it.

I haven't a CLUE what Iv'e done to make you all hostile, this is rediculous.
I've interacted with you on other threads just fine w/out you getting silly like this.

enjoy yourself Ray.

Your Brother
John

 

[Flying Crane]

And I am also saying if they did refer to China as Tang then the origin of Kenpo/Kempo could be Shaolin

.

I have seen Kenpo history presented in a way as to suggest it has lineage to Shaolin. Personally, if there is any truth at all in this suggestion, I believe it is absolutely impossible to document it, so it remains in the realm of pure spectulation.

Second, from the Shaolin I have seen regarding how it stylistically moves and the forms-based methodology, I would say the two arts are pretty different. It seems to me that the basic structure of how the art is practiced and passed down to subsequent generations is just rather different. This leads me to be further suspicious of any claims of a shaolin legacy in kenpo. If it exists, I think it cannot be established and shall remain lost in time. I am content to accept the existance of a Chinese history in kenpo, but any specifics in that history have been lost.

In the early days of Mr. Parker's time in California, he had some acquaintances in Chinese arts like James Wing Woo. These people did teach Mr. Parker some material that was included in the kenpo of that era, and included forms like Tiger/Crane which is Hung Gar in origin, as well as a form that has come to be known as "panther", but I don't know specifically what Chinese art it may have come from. It has a fairly hung gar "flavor", but I don't really know if that is where it came from. Others, like Tam Tui which is common to many Chinese arts in some aspect or another. Mr. Parker eventually dropped this material in his later versions of his art, in favor of forms that were created specifically around the Self Defense methods that make up the base of kenpo curriculum.

In contrast, the Tracy system kept these Chinese forms, and adopted a number of others into the system that we practice. But I do not believe any of this Chinese material was part of what Mr. Chow was teaching to Mr. Parker back in Hawaii. I believe all of this material was brought into the system beginning when Mr. Parker came to the mainland and began working with people like James Wing Woo.

I seem to recall DOC suggesting in a different thread a while back that William Chow had been teaching forms in Hawaii, but I think they may have been Japanese or Okinawan kata, and not Chinese. I could be mistaken about this, however. At any rate, none of those made it into what Mr. Parker was teaching on the mainland.

 

[Ray]

This is a very strange little hill you've chosen to die on...

Why would you threaten me this way?

 

[SL4Drew]

***1st: I understand that you study/train in American Kenpo and it's not Japanese Karate-Do. Same here. But it is from the Japanese Karate influence that Mr. Mitose chose to use the term "Karate" at all, from there to Chow, from Chow to Mr. Parker, from Mr. Parker........on down the line to you and me. That's why the "Kenpo Creed" says "I come to you with only Karate, my empty hands". So it didn't come from the Okinawan streams of Karate, otherwise it'd be "I come to you with only Karate, my Chinese hands". SO.....if someone wants to track down the term "Kenpo Karate" they need to take this route to determine how it's being used and where they got it from. ***
Your Brother
John

I know that Doc has a different perspective on this. When the creed was created, the word 'karate' was inserted to associate Kenpo with the popular and widely know art of the day--Karate. It was not necessarily meant as synonym for 'empty hands.' So, the word karate is superfluous, and he has removed it from his course books.

It is also my understanding that Okazaki's Danzan-Ryu had a tremendous early influence on Mr. Parker, and it seems on Chow as well, or at least many of Chow's early students. But, at least with Mr. Parker, that influence diminished as he was exposed to the mother Chinese arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have seen Kenpo history presented in a way as to suggest it has lineage to Shaolin. Personally, if there is any truth at all in this suggestion, I believe it is absolutely impossible to document it, so it remains in the realm of pure spectulation.

Second, from the Shaolin I have seen regarding how it stylistically moves and the forms-based methodology, I would say the two arts are pretty different. It seems to me that the basic structure of how the art is practiced and passed down to subsequent generations is just rather different. This leads me to be further suspicious of any claims of a shaolin legacy in kenpo. If it exists, I think it cannot be established and shall remain lost in time. I am content to accept the existance of a Chinese history in kenpo, but any specifics in that history have been lost.

In the early days of Mr. Parker's time in California, he had some acquaintances in Chinese arts like James Wing Woo. These people did teach Mr. Parker some material that was included in the kenpo of that era, and included forms like Tiger/Crane which is Hung Gar in origin, as well as a form that has come to be known as "panther", but I don't know specifically what Chinese art it may have come from. It has a fairly hung gar "flavor", but I don't really know if that is where it came from. Others, like Tam Tui which is common to many Chinese arts in some aspect or another. Mr. Parker eventually dropped this material in his later versions of his art, in favor of forms that were created specifically around the Self Defense methods that make up the base of kenpo curriculum.

In contrast, the Tracy system kept these Chinese forms, and adopted a number of others into the system that we practice. But I do not believe any of this Chinese material was part of what Mr. Chow was teaching to Mr. Parker back in Hawaii. I believe all of this material was brought into the system beginning when Mr. Parker came to the mainland and began working with people like James Wing Woo.

I seem to recall DOC suggesting in a different thread a while back that William Chow had been teaching forms in Hawaii, but I think they may have been Japanese or Okinawan kata, and not Chinese. I could be mistaken about this, however. At any rate, none of those made it into what Mr. Parker was teaching on the mainland.

As to the Tang dynasty connection, it does not have to be Shaolin, I just referenced it because that is when the first written mention of Shaolin appears, there were other martial arts during the tang and it was in general, I believe, pretty militaristic, they had lots of competition then. I will have to see what I can find

Thanks for al the great info, I am going to go back through this thread tomorrow and see if I can get a better picture.

 

[Brother John]

Why would you threaten me this way?

You can't be serious, can you?

IF you feel threatened, do the right thing and report me to the mods who will take the needed actions.
if not, and you're trying to be funny, it failed.

Enough side-track here into Ray's confusion...
on with the discussion of the roots of terms in KeM/Npo.

Your Brother
John

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tang Dynasty 618-907 A.D

By the time of the Tang Dynasty there were or had been other Martial arts as well as Shaolin

There were combat systems that included Strikes, Throws, Joint locks and pressure point attacks and Jiao li became a sport during Qin 221-207BC which later becomes Shaiojiao

hard" and "soft" techniques are recorded in the annals of the Spring and Autumn Period (722 BC–481 BC)

During the the Former Han (206 BCE–8 CE), there was a distinction between no-holds-barred weaponless fighting, which it calls shoubo (手&#25615, and sports, known as juélì or jiaolì (角&#21147

Wrestling was documented in the Shǐ Jì, The Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian dating from 109 BC to 91 BC.

During the the Tang Dynasty sword dances were written about in poems by Li Bai.

Taosits were already practicing Dao Yin

Also within Shaolin there were differnt styles such as Long Fist and Cannon fist

And this is just to name a few, I am still looking

 

[tellner]

If there are pretensions, and Lord knows we martial artists are a pretentious lot, it almost always goes like this:

1. Ta Mo teaches the Shaolin monks
2. Shaolin is great. Shaolin is cool. Shaolin is the Sun Source of martial arts.
3. Ninjas (sic) are pretty cool, too.
4. Vigorous handwaving, offering of Kool Aid, cloud shaped drawings.
5. My teacher's teacher's teacher inherits the Real Shaolin Traditions.
6. The Keeper's of the Flame are Billy Bob's School of Kempo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu Fighting Concepts.
7. I am a First Degree Black Sash under Sensei Sifu Grandmaster Billy Bob.

As Dread Tsathoggua is my witness the first time I used "Billy Bob's School of Kempo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu" (back before USENET turned to slime) I got an angry email. One of Billy Bob's students was upset that I added "Ninja Fu" to the end of the Art's name.

I checked.

There really was such a school.

Human beings are strange.