ok...I'm confused

[Xue Sheng]

OK this is going to likely be a silly question and I truly mean no disrespect, but being a CMA guy with zero experience in kenpo/kempo I have seen multiple posts about Kenpo/Kempo as well as various spelling and since I am not sure which one to use I am using both Kenpo and Kempo.

But I have see it having in it; Taijiquan, Kung fu kata (which I have to say Kung Fu [Chinese] with Kata [Japanese] bugs me – sorry), Shaolin, and now Wing Chun and I have seen it called Okinawan, Chinese, American and Japanese. I have seen Parker Kenpo/Kempo, Tracy Kenpo/Kempo, American Kenpo/Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo (Shaolin [Chinese] Kenpo/Kempo [not Chinese] again this one bugs me) and just plain Kenpo/Kempo and a few others as well.

If I may ask what is Kenpo/Kempo?

Because my understanding of it previously was it had its origins in China but it was not Chinese, it started in Okinawa and moved into Japan and was later in Hawaii where Ed Parker was and somehow Tracy gets involved.

Again I mean no disrespect I am just very confused. I use to spar a guy that was American Kenpo/Kempo and I will say he was one heck of a fighter and very skilled but that was years ago and I have no idea where he is now so I can’t ask him.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Kenpo or Kempo is an art with origins in China and Japan, with some parts later developing in Hawaii and the US. All share simularities, yet are organized differently with different focuses and different forms. Some will have adapted other cultural arts into their mix, some will add or subtract forms, concepts and techniques as their developer or even the current instructor sees fit, within his or her own current understanding of the arts.

The best way to understand a particular branch, is to follow it's lineage path back to the sources....a confusing task at best.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kenpo or Kempo is an art with origins in China and Japan, with some parts later developing in Hawaii and the US. All share simularities, yet are organized differently with different focuses and different forms. Some will have adapted other cultural arts into their mix, some will add or subtract forms, concepts and techniques as their developer or even the current instructor sees fit, within his or her own current understanding of the arts.

Thanks Bob

The best way to understand a particular branch, is to follow it's lineage path back to the sources....a confusing task at best.

So you are saying in order for me to be less confused I need to be more confused :eye-popping: :uhyeah:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yes. Only whn you grasp the pebble from the hand do you realize the secret is to bang the rocks together.



To understand the differences/simularities between Tracy and other kenpos you need to also look at Parker and see where they diverged, then where Chow and Parker diverged, etc. Also look at who was hanging out with who and when to see where outside info was meshed. At one point in time, Parker, Bruce Lee and Remy Presas were interacting and sharing sttuff, which had some effect on each of them, which is also part of the why there are some simularities between Parkers, Lee's and Presas's arts. (I did the same tech doing EPAK, JKD and Modern Arnis. 3 different names, all slightly different but recognizable to anyone doing those arts.)

Now, for more depth, those who've really researched the 'where did what come from stuff" will have to chime in, and possible correct or expand on my comments. My kenpo knowledge is limited.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes. Only whn you grasp the pebble from the hand do you realize the secret is to bang the rocks together.

Banging rocks together as we speak

To understand the differences/simularities between Tracy and other kenpos you need to also look at Parker and see where they diverged, then where Chow and Parker diverged, etc. Also look at who was hanging out with who and when to see where outside info was meshed. At one point in time, Parker, Bruce Lee and Remy Presas were interacting and sharing sttuff, which had some effect on each of them, which is also part of the why there are some simularities between Parkers, Lee's and Presas's arts. (I did the same tech doing EPAK, JKD and Modern Arnis. 3 different names, all slightly different but recognizable to anyone doing those arts.)

Now, for more depth, those who've really researched the 'where did what come from stuff" will have to chime in, and possible correct or expand on my comments. My kenpo knowledge is limited.

Thanks again Bob

 

[Blindside]

But I have see it having in it; Taijiquan, Kung fu kata (which I have to say Kung Fu [Chinese] with Kata [Japanese] bugs me – sorry), Shaolin, and now Wing Chun and I have seen it called Okinawan, Chinese, American and Japanese. I have seen Parker Kenpo/Kempo, Tracy Kenpo/Kempo, American Kenpo/Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo/Kempo (Shaolin [Chinese] Kenpo/Kempo [not Chinese] again this one bugs me) and just plain Kenpo/Kempo and a few others as well.

I can see why you are confused. Quite frankly the different kenpo lineages can't agree on their history prior to the 1940s or so. So if we can't agree, it isn't really surprising that outsiders can't figure it out since every kenpo lineage says something different.

Most kenpo lineages trace their line back to Professor Chow (Parker's teacher), prior to him everything becomes very controversial.

Some people say that Chow's teacher, Mitose didn't know or show much, therefore the buck stops at Chow. Some people say that Chow's father had some Chinese style, but there is much disagreement on this. Everyone agrees Professor Chow was a badass fighter.

Other people say that Mitose was a master instructor and his history is important. Some people say that Mitose's background was Okinawan karate or the unarmed portion of a Japanese samurai family art. For some people, the fact that Mitose was a conman and a general scumbag, lends doubt to whatever he claimed, and generally they don't want someone like THAT in their lineage anyway.

Some people say that because Mr. Parker changed so much of what he initially learned, the lineage really stops with him. Mr. Parker had inputs from several "Chinese" sources after he reached California, and that is obvious from the early iterations of the "Chinese Kenpo." You see borrow forms from various Chinese arts, prior to this Kenpo wasn't really taught through a kata/form curricullum, the only form taught was Naihanchi. The Tracy's kenpo system offshoot began here and they continued to borrow forms from other systems, which is why you see forms like Tiger and Crane, Tam Tui, etc. Parker eventually wound up dropping those borrow forms in favor of a fairly extensive technical curricullum of sets and forms, and a conceptual framework to put them into. At this point, Kenpo doesn't really have an obvious "flavor" of its eastern origin. Its inputs can be described as something like.... something Okinawan (maybe), something Japanese (maybe), several Chinese lineages (definately), and then technically reformatted for a western mindset.

Clear as mud?

Lamont

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, I'll give it to ya as briefly as I can.

The Mitose clan is a Japanese family that ended up in Hawaii. They brought their family fighting art with them. If you trace the art back far enough, it probably has Chinese roots, but it was thoroughly Japanese for at least several generations. I really do not know the details about this.

The Mitoses passed on the art, and one student of James Mitose in Hawaii, was William Chow. Mr. Chow was an acknowledged powerhouse in kenpo, even tho he was only about 5'3" or so. Anyway, starting in about the late 1940s or early 1950s or so, Ed Parker studied under Mr. Chow. Mr. Parker brought what he learned to the Mainland, first teaching at Brigham Young university where he was a student, then teaching in California. Among his earliest California students were the Tracy brothers, Al, Jim, and Will. They began training with him in around 1957. I believe Will actually spent time training with Chow, and got his shodan from Chow, not Parker.

OVer time, Mr. Parker studied under various other people, including some kung fu people like Ark Yuey Wong, in LA. These experiences lead him to begin a long series of changes to his art and how he was teaching it. I can only assume that Mr. Parker felt these changes would improve the art, but the Tracys felt otherwise. They did not agree with the changes, and gradually split from Mr. Parker altogether and kept their version of Kenpo closer to what Mr. Parker taught them in the 1950s and early 1960s. At various times the split included a fair amount of hostility, but it is my understanding that by the time Mr. P died in 1990, they were on fairly amicable terms once again.

So in the mean time, thru the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, Mr. P continued to make changes and revisions and whatnot. Many people studied with him during these times, and their particular version of kenpo reflects when they trained with him. Few people actually stayed with him from the early days until the end. Out of this era came "Chinese Kenpo", which was I guess a nod to the Chinese influences that Mr. P was bringing into his art.

The later versions of his art, stemming from the 1970s onward, have become known collectively as Ed Parker's American Kenpo, or EPAK for short. I personally don't feel this is an accurate description because it assumes a large deal of unity and standardization from school to school, and I think that's not true. From what I have read in the forums, it seems those who were senior students at the end of MR. Parker's life often disagree about how things ought to be done, so I think there is really very little unity, even tho the curriculum may be fairly similar, at least on a superficial level. I prefer to simply look at the whole picture as different lineages that trace their roots back to Mr. Parker. This includes earlier splits like Tracy kenpo, and others like Larry Tatum, Richard Planas, Joe Palanzo, Frank Trejo, and our very own Ron "DOC" Chapel. At least that's how I see things. But at any rate, if you see a reference to EPAK, it refers to a lineage that probably started with Mr. Parker no earlier than about the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Getting away from Mr. Parker, there are other lineages that trace their roots back to William Chow without going thru Ed Parker. These include Kajukenbo, which was started in part by Adriano and Joe Emperado. They were students of William Chow in about the 1940s, and were senior to Ed Parker. Another would be Kara-Ho Kenpo, under the leadership of a gentleman in LA whose name I cannot remember. Some of his students post here, and I think he even shows up once in a while. He was a long-time student of William Chow.

Still other lineages trace back to James Mitose, without going thru William Chow. I believe they go by the name Kosho-Ryu Kenpo. I think it translates as "Young Pine Tree" or something, which is what the Mitose clan was calling their art. As far as I understand anyway, which I could be wrong.

Prior to James Mitose, it's hard to make any solid lineage tracing. I think the records earlier than that are just not clear.

However, there are other arts that also use the term "Kenpo" or more often "Kempo", some of which are related to the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages, and some of which are not. An East Coast lineage thru Nick Cerio exists, and I think people like Fred Villari and Steve Damascos come from this lineage. I believe Cerio studied under some people and had some experience directly with William Chow and Ed Parker, but I don't think he was ever a long-time student of either. But I think this lineages use the term Shaolin Kempo or something like that. Another Shaolin Kemp Karate system exists on the West Coast under the leadership of Ralph Castro, who was a student of William Chow and somewhat of Ed Parker. But it is a separate system from the East Coast group.

There are also unrelated systems that simply use the term Kempo. Examples are Okinawan Kempo and Shorinji Kempo. The term Kempo is actually fairly generic, being a Japanese translation if Chinese Kuen Fa, meaning roughly "law of the fist". During the time when the Japanese karateka were changing the written character from "kara" meaning "Chinese", to a different written character "kara" meaning "empty", for karate - empty hand, as a way of distancing the Japanese arts from any Chinese influences as a movement of Japanese national pride, some arts simply kept the term Kenpo as a nod of acknowledgement to the Chinese origins of their arts. So they use the term, but there is probably no actual connection to the kenpo found in the US thru the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages.

So there it is, as concisely as I can give it to ya.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I can see why you are confused. Quite frankly the different kenpo lineages can't agree on their history prior to the 1940s or so. So if we can't agree, it isn't really surprising that outsiders can't figure it out since every kenpo lineage says something different.

Most kenpo lineages trace their line back to Professor Chow (Parker's teacher), prior to him everything becomes very controversial.

Some people say that Chow's teacher, Mitose didn't know or show much, therefore the buck stops at Chow. Some people say that Chow's father had some Chinese style, but there is much disagreement on this. Everyone agrees Professor Chow was a badass fighter.

Other people say that Mitose was a master instructor and his history is important. Some people say that Mitose's background was Okinawan karate or the unarmed portion of a Japanese samurai family art. For some people, the fact that Mitose was a conman and a general scumbag, lends doubt to whatever he claimed, and generally they don't want someone like THAT in their lineage anyway.

Some people say that because Mr. Parker changed so much of what he initially learned, the lineage really stops with him. Mr. Parker had inputs from several "Chinese" sources after he reached California, and that is obvious from the early iterations of the "Chinese Kenpo." You see borrow forms from various Chinese arts, prior to this Kenpo wasn't really taught through a kata/form curricullum, the only form taught was Naihanchi. The Tracy's kenpo system offshoot began here and they continued to borrow forms from other systems, which is why you see forms like Tiger and Crane, Tam Tui, etc. Parker eventually wound up dropping those borrow forms in favor of a fairly extensive technical curricullum of sets and forms, and a conceptual framework to put them into. At this point, Kenpo doesn't really have an obvious "flavor" of its eastern origin. Its inputs can be described as something like.... something Okinawan (maybe), something Japanese (maybe), several Chinese lineages (definately), and then technically reformatted for a western mindset.

Clear as mud?

Lamont

Actually between what you and Bob have posted, clear as mud us an improvement from were I was a little while ago, Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, I'll give it to ya as briefly as I can.

The Mitose clan is a Japanese family that ended up in Hawaii. They brought their family fighting art with them. If you trace the art back far enough, it probably has Chinese roots, but it was thoroughly Japanese for at least several generations. I really do not know the details about this.

The Mitoses passed on the art, and one student of James Mitose in Hawaii, was William Chow. Mr. Chow was an acknowledged powerhouse in kenpo, even tho he was only about 5'3" or so. Anyway, starting in about the late 1940s or early 1950s or so, Ed Parker studied under Mr. Chow. Mr. Parker brought what he learned to the Mainland, first teaching at Brigham Young university where he was a student, then teaching in California. Among his earliest California students were the Tracy brothers, Al, Jim, and Will. They began training with him in around 1957. I believe Will actually spent time training with Chow, and got his shodan from Chow, not Parker.

OVer time, Mr. Parker studied under various other people, including some kung fu people like Ark Yuey Wong, in LA. These experiences lead him to begin a long series of changes to his art and how he was teaching it. I can only assume that Mr. Parker felt these changes would improve the art, but the Tracys felt otherwise. They did not agree with the changes, and gradually split from Mr. Parker altogether and kept their version of Kenpo closer to what Mr. Parker taught them in the 1950s and early 1960s. At various times the split included a fair amount of hostility, but it is my understanding that by the time Mr. P died in 1990, they were on fairly amicable terms once again.

So in the mean time, thru the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, Mr. P continued to make changes and revisions and whatnot. Many people studied with him during these times, and their particular version of kenpo reflects when they trained with him. Few people actually stayed with him from the early days until the end. Out of this era came "Chinese Kenpo", which was I guess a nod to the Chinese influences that Mr. P was bringing into his art.

The later versions of his art, stemming from the 1970s onward, have become known collectively as Ed Parker's American Kenpo, or EPAK for short. I personally don't feel this is an accurate description because it assumes a large deal of unity and standardization from school to school, and I think that's not true. From what I have read in the forums, it seems those who were senior students at the end of MR. Parker's life often disagree about how things ought to be done, so I think there is really very little unity, even tho the curriculum may be fairly similar, at least on a superficial level. I prefer to simply look at the whole picture as different lineages that trace their roots back to Mr. Parker. This includes earlier splits like Tracy kenpo, and others like Larry Tatum, Richard Planas, Joe Palanzo, Frank Trejo, and our very own Ron "DOC" Chapel. At least that's how I see things. But at any rate, if you see a reference to EPAK, it refers to a lineage that probably started with Mr. Parker no earlier than about the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Getting away from Mr. Parker, there are other lineages that trace their roots back to William Chow without going thru Ed Parker. These include Kajukenbo, which was started in part by Adriano and Joe Emperado. They were students of William Chow in about the 1940s, and were senior to Ed Parker. Another would be Kara-Ho Kenpo, under the leadership of a gentleman in LA whose name I cannot remember. Some of his students post here, and I think he even shows up once in a while. He was a long-time student of William Chow.

Still other lineages trace back to James Mitose, without going thru William Chow. I believe they go by the name Kosho-Ryu Kenpo. I think it translates as "Young Pine Tree" or something, which is what the Mitose clan was calling their art. As far as I understand anyway, which I could be wrong.

Prior to James Mitose, it's hard to make any solid lineage tracing. I think the records earlier than that are just not clear.

However, there are other arts that also use the term "Kenpo" or more often "Kempo", some of which are related to the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages, and some of which are not. An East Coast lineage thru Nick Cerio exists, and I think people like Fred Villari and Steve Damascos come from this lineage. I believe Cerio studied under some people and had some experience directly with William Chow and Ed Parker, but I don't think he was ever a long-time student of either. But I think this lineages use the term Shaolin Kempo or something like that. Another Shaolin Kemp Karate system exists on the West Coast under the leadership of Ralph Castro, who was a student of William Chow and somewhat of Ed Parker. But it is a separate system from the East Coast group.

There are also unrelated systems that simply use the term Kempo. Examples are Okinawan Kempo and Shorinji Kempo. The term Kempo is actually fairly generic, being a Japanese translation if Chinese Kuen Fa, meaning roughly "law of the fist". During the time when the Japanese karateka were changing the written character from "kara" meaning "Chinese", to a different written character "kara" meaning "empty", for karate - empty hand, as a way of distancing the Japanese arts from any Chinese influences as a movement of Japanese national pride, some arts simply kept the term Kenpo as a nod of acknowledgement to the Chinese origins of their arts. So they use the term, but there is probably no actual connection to the kenpo found in the US thru the Mitose/Chow/Parker lineages.

So there it is, as concisely as I can give it to ya.

WOW!

Thank You, that helped, I am still a bit confused but things are getting more clear.

 

[Flying Crane]

WOW!

Thank You, that helped, I am still a bit confused but things are getting more clear.

throw it at me, i'll see if I can shed some light on any specific questions.

 

[Brother John]

Kempo is a Japanese term for "Chuan-Fa" once it has been transplanted away from China. It's actually a generic term for martial systems outside of China that can show a direct pedigree back to a Chinese "Chuan-Fa" system.
There is no "ONE" Kempo OR Kenpo, though using the "N" does narrow down it's scope quite a bit. (James Mitose, I'm told, changed the M to an N in order to show a distinction for his system. He also chose to use the title "Karate" for his system, mostly so it could be recognized as a striking martial art.)

There are systems of "Okinawan Karate" that designate themselves as "Kempo". Plenty.

In Ke'N'po...it's usually derived from one or another variation from the lineage of Ke'M'po that Mitose & Chow introduced in the Polynesian Islands in the 1st half of the 20th century. Mr. Mitose and Mr. Chow's students were (generally) very prolific. Several of their students went on to found "Kempo" or "Kenpo" systems themselves. One of the most predominant was Mr. Edmund K. Parker Sr., who founded the "American Kenpo Karate" system. FROM Mr. Parker LOTS of "Kenpo" systems deviated or at least you could say that there are lots of different 'flavors' of his creation. There's also still a solid/stead stream of what he created which is still faithfully being transmitted.

There's also Shorinji Ryu Kempo. This system was created by Doshin So of Japan after having studied Chuan-Fa in China.
I suggest going to Wikipedia.com and looking up both Kempo and Kenpo.
I think it'd be helpful to you.

Trust me, I understand the confusion.

Your Brother
John

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kempo is a Japanese term for "Chuan-Fa" once it has been transplanted away from China. It's actually a generic term for martial systems outside of China that can show a direct pedigree back to a Chinese "Chuan-Fa" system.
There is no "ONE" Kempo OR Kenpo, though using the "N" does narrow down it's scope quite a bit. (James Mitose, I'm told, changed the M to an N in order to show a distinction for his system. He also chose to use the title "Karate" for his system, mostly so it could be recognized as a striking martial art.)

There are systems of "Okinawan Karate" that designate themselves as "Kempo". Plenty.

In Ke'N'po...it's usually derived from one or another variation from the lineage of Ke'M'po that Mitose & Chow introduced in the Polynesian Islands in the 1st half of the 20th century. Mr. Mitose and Mr. Chow's students were (generally) very prolific. Several of their students went on to found "Kempo" or "Kenpo" systems themselves. One of the most predominant was Mr. Edmund K. Parker Sr., who founded the "American Kenpo Karate" system. FROM Mr. Parker LOTS of "Kenpo" systems deviated or at least you could say that there are lots of different 'flavors' of his creation. There's also still a solid/stead stream of what he created which is still faithfully being transmitted.

There's also Shorinji Ryu Kempo. This system was created by Doshin So of Japan after having studied Chuan-Fa in China.
I suggest going to Wikipedia.com and looking up both Kempo and Kenpo.
I think it'd be helpful to you.

Trust me, I understand the confusion.

Your Brother
John

Thank you, so the N vs the M makes a difference than.

But I keep seeing Chuan fa which to be honest from a CMA pov it is not making things easier as far as origin so I see what everyone is talking about

Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.

 

[Flying Crane]

Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.

Yup. I think the use of the term is a nod of acknowledgement to the Chinese origins, but not in a specific sort of way. I think at this point it is impossible to track it down to a specific Chinese system. Keep in mind, the systems that call themselves kenpo had or have a pretty long establishment in Japan and have become thoroughly Japanese during that time. Use of the term Kempo or Kenpo recognizes the Chinese origins, but from a distance.

 

[Rabu]

Xue Sheng,

I spent years tyring to talk to some of the right people to know whats going on in Kem/npo. I gave up and started studying Chinese arts instead. Much less vague in the CMA. Think about that statement for a moment, let your brain explode, then follow the bread crumbs by going here:

Seinenkai.com

It came to the US through Hawaii.

You might be able to get some decent information there.

Best of luck.

Rob

 

[Xue Sheng]

Much less vague in the CMA. Think about that statement for a moment, let your brain explode,

Being a long time CMA guy......:eye-popping: KABOOOM!!! DAMN!!!

I am mainly curious about it from the posts that I have been reading on MT and I was getting more than a bit confused. I am finding that it is not uncommon to be confused and I can live with that, but form the responses I have received I am less confused than when I started.

Thanks

 

[Brother John]

Thank you, so the N vs the M makes a difference than.

But I keep seeing Chuan fa which to be honest from a CMA pov it is not making things easier as far as origin so I see what everyone is talking about

Quan fa (Pinyin) or chüan fa (Wade-Giles) basically meaning "fist principles" is a generic term used for open handed Chinese martial arts, basically old time Wushu or what is now called Kung Fu done without weapons so based on the statement is comes from Quan Fa is in and of itself pretty generic and confusing to this old CMA guy.

I totally understand where you're coming from!!!!
Thing is, I believe that what EXACT CMA or "Quan Fa" system these various "Kempo" and "Kenpo" systems trace back too........is pretty much lost in obscurity. The word "Kempo"/"Kenpo" also means "fist law" and is a direct translation of Chuan-Fa or Quan-Fa.

Something else to consider: MOST of the modern versions of Ke'N'po derive from the teachings of Kwai Sun Chow on Honalulu. According to what ammounts to "oral tradition" his "Kem/npo" was influenced greatly by CMA. (Don't know which style, still) His student, Edmund Parker Sr. re-organized what he gained from his instructor (Mr. Chow), revamped a LOT (or most) of it and went to some CMA masters during this process for instruction/help/inspiration...etc. Jimmy Wing Woo, Grandmaster Ark Yueh Wong and others. So even when Mr. Parker totally overhauled the system in the creation and innovation of "American Kenpo Karate" (((Which for a time in it's formative years went by the name "Chinese Kenpo Karate", a term which some still adhere too..........and no doubt has added to your confusion))). MANY ((myself, a kenpo stylist, included)) Consider the movements/motions and methods of American Kenpo Karate to be MUCH MUCH more like the circular & linear synthesis of many Kung-Fu systems than the "Karate" of the Okinawan Islands..........and Definitely NOT like the later renditions of Karate on mainland Japan. (Typified by long strides and single strokes, possibly due to the strong influence of KenDo and the fact that many of it's highest ranking karateka were ALSO high ranking Kendoka)

Just something more to think about.

Your Brother
John

 

[Ray]

The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa. The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.

The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands." The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.

 

[KENPOJOE]

The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa. The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.

The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands." The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.

Hi folks!
The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
"law of the fist china hand"
This page might be of some help
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/history.html
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Xue Sheng]

I totally understand where you're coming from!!!!
Thing is, I believe that what EXACT CMA or "Quan Fa" system these various "Kempo" and "Kenpo" systems trace back too........is pretty much lost in obscurity. The word "Kempo"/"Kenpo" also means "fist law" and is a direct translation of Chuan-Fa or Quan-Fa.

Something else to consider: MOST of the modern versions of Ke'N'po derive from the teachings of Kwai Sun Chow on Honalulu. According to what ammounts to "oral tradition" his "Kem/npo" was influenced greatly by CMA. (Don't know which style, still) His student, Edmund Parker Sr. re-organized what he gained from his instructor (Mr. Chow), revamped a LOT (or most) of it and went to some CMA masters during this process for instruction/help/inspiration...etc. Jimmy Wing Woo, Grandmaster Ark Yueh Wong and others. So even when Mr. Parker totally overhauled the system in the creation and innovation of "American Kenpo Karate" (((Which for a time in it's formative years went by the name "Chinese Kenpo Karate", a term which some still adhere too..........and no doubt has added to your confusion))). MANY ((myself, a kenpo stylist, included)) Consider the movements/motions and methods of American Kenpo Karate to be MUCH MUCH more like the circular & linear synthesis of many Kung-Fu systems than the "Karate" of the Okinawan Islands..........and Definitely NOT like the later renditions of Karate on mainland Japan. (Typified by long strides and single strokes, possibly due to the strong influence of KenDo and the fact that many of it's highest ranking karateka were ALSO high ranking Kendoka)

Just something more to think about.

Your Brother
John

That makes more sense as to where the Chinese comes from then, movement

 

[Xue Sheng]

The word "karate" was originally used the kanji meaning "chinese hands" because the chinese art was practiced in okinawa. The kanji meaning "sky-hand" or "empty-hand" was adopted in the early 1900s in Japan once the Japanese and Okinawin masters decided they had changed it significantly to suit their needs.

The art that is "kenpo karate" is "law of the fist and chinese hands." The chinese pronounciation would be Chu'an fa san shou.

Thank you

I would like to see the actual Kanji, I can't figure it out but my wife could

As to "Quan Fa San Shou" that means "Empty hand free fighting" in Mandarin

Hi folks!
The actual mandarin pronunciation would be "Chuan Fa Tang Shou"
"law of the fist china hand"
This page might be of some help
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/history.html
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Again I need to see the Kanji because Chuan fa Tan Shou does not tranlate to Law of the fist China hand.

In Mandarin

"Law of the fist" is pretty much "Quan Fa" and "China hand" would be "Zhong guo Zhang" and all together it is more likely "Zhong Guo Quan Fa" if you want "Law of the fist China hand".

As to Tang, without the characters or the tone I am clueless.

And Thank You very much for the link


NOTE:

Also I should add all of my translations are in Pinyin and Mandarin in Wade-Giles it could be a little different and I would need to look that up to figure it out and if you are talking Cantonese I have no idea