Justice and Revenge

WC_lun

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The Manchus in China did something I assume most people here would find barbaric. If the believed a person was a rebel against the government, they would execute that person and all of thier family out to seven generations. Now it isn't revenge, but you can see how the thinking is a bit similiar. Guess what happened to the Manchus?
 

Bill Mattocks

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The Manchus in China did something I assume most people here would find barbaric. If the believed a person was a rebel against the government, they would execute that person and all of thier family out to seven generations. Now it isn't revenge, but you can see how the thinking is a bit similiar. Guess what happened to the Manchus?

I once knew two sisters who could not stand each other. They used to engage in fistfights with each other all the time. Once, one of them shoved her sister's head through a plate-glass window over a fight at breakfast. Nice.

I talked to each of them. They both claimed they wanted the fighting to stop - if one would stop, so would the other. But neither one would be the last to be hit. If sister A gets hit, she hits sister B. If B gets hit, she hits sister A. Since neither one would accept being the last to get hit, it just went on and on. Both of them were proud that they "didn't back down" from the other's taunts, threats, and violence. Yep, they didn't back down. Both of them insisted that they were "teaching" the other "a lesson she will never forget," but neither one apparently ever learned the lesson the other was teaching. Both claimed they wanted peace; neither one would be the first to stop fighting. Each claimed the other was the aggressor.

You couldn't tell them anything; they were so supremely proud of their idiocy, they would never take a step back and think about what it actually takes to end the fighting. All they knew was that they were "not going to take any *****" from the other. Yay, them. They sure showed the rest of the world.

By the way, one of them is dead now. No, they didn't kill each other; but one of them took her tough-chick ways to a bar and got shot directly in the forehead.

She sure showed them. Proved something. I guess. I'd rather be alive, but hey, that's just me. A big ol' wussy.
 

Twin Fist

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quite a bit of difference between not backing down and taking revenge on someone that wrong you.

look, we KNOW the court system is a joke. The scumbag that rapes your kid? prob wont even do time

it is understandable to want to get some payback

it is understandable to GET the payback

the only real question is, what would it take for YOU to do it


it may not be "right" but it IS the human condition
 

Bob Hubbard

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quite a bit of difference between not backing down and taking revenge on someone that wrong you.

look, we KNOW the court system is a joke. The scumbag that rapes your kid? prob wont even do time

it is understandable to want to get some payback

it is understandable to GET the payback

the only real question is, what would it take for YOU to do it


it may not be "right" but it IS the human condition
I doubt I could be that angry a person, that I would take it that far.
Yeah, attack me I will defend. Attack my family I will defend.
I might ever seek revenge.

But there's a difference between you and I engaging and I take out your 25 yr old brother after he joins in, and me sneaking into your house at 3am and snapping the neck of your 4 month old son.

Now that's an example, so John, just in case...you have a 25 yr old brother or a 4 month old son, it's NOT aimed at you personally. As far as I know you have neither, but I accidentally hit 2 personal shots before by dumb fricken luck so ain't taking a chance this time. Just so it's all clear.
 

Twin Fist

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EH, the fact that you find "kid raping" a normal part of the human condition is kinda scary

Bob,
I get what you are saying, no worries, but the thing is, i have atheory that says you never know what you will do till you have to, so while i get ya, would you say that you dont THINK you could do that?
 

LuckyKBoxer

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I doubt I could be that angry a person, that I would take it that far.
Yeah, attack me I will defend. Attack my family I will defend.
I might ever seek revenge.

But there's a difference between you and I engaging and I take out your 25 yr old brother after he joins in, and me sneaking into your house at 3am and snapping the neck of your 4 month old son.

Now that's an example, so John, just in case...you have a 25 yr old brother or a 4 month old son, it's NOT aimed at you personally. As far as I know you have neither, but I accidentally hit 2 personal shots before by dumb fricken luck so ain't taking a chance this time. Just so it's all clear.

I like how to suit the purpose of the argument, those against the idea of revenge like to toss in 4 month olds, and innocent children... concepts that most likely not going to be a part of the scenario in some of these worst case offenders.
All these serial rapists, kidnappers, and killers who have a full nuclear innocent family surrounding them.... ya. This is why I have avoided this topic. some of you would rather chose to toss in the most extreme unlikely scenarios..
 

Bob Hubbard

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I like how to suit the purpose of the argument, those against the idea of revenge like to toss in 4 month olds, and innocent children... concepts that most likely not going to be a part of the scenario in some of these worst case offenders.
All these serial rapists, kidnappers, and killers who have a full nuclear innocent family surrounding them.... ya. This is why I have avoided this topic. some of you would rather chose to toss in the most extreme unlikely scenarios..
If they have no families, then there is no opportunity to go beyond them.
If they do, it is possible that there will be children.

Is it more acceptable to kill an innocent 12 yr old, or 17 yr old than a 4 yr old or 4 month old?
My perception was that the discussion was about extending revenge past the immediate offender.
 

LuckyKBoxer

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If they have no families, then there is no opportunity to go beyond them.
If they do, it is possible that there will be children.

Is it more acceptable to kill an innocent 12 yr old, or 17 yr old than a 4 yr old or 4 month old?
My perception was that the discussion was about extending revenge past the immediate offender.

so we are talking about a person who kidnaps, rapes, and kills other human beings and you think he is going to be surrounded by loving family, innocent children, and people who are good?
Interesting.
 

Bob Hubbard

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Should the SEAL team that put the bullet in Osama's head, also put one in his 12 year old daughters, as revenge for 9/11?
What if the shooter had lost his wife in the collapse?
 

MJS

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I like how to suit the purpose of the argument, those against the idea of revenge like to toss in 4 month olds, and innocent children... concepts that most likely not going to be a part of the scenario in some of these worst case offenders.
All these serial rapists, kidnappers, and killers who have a full nuclear innocent family surrounding them.... ya. This is why I have avoided this topic. some of you would rather chose to toss in the most extreme unlikely scenarios..

In my post, I simply said child or wife. I mention no ages, but for the sake of discussion, we could insert anyone into the mix.....newborn all the way to 90yo mother. But, as Bob said, we're talking about exacting revenge, not the ages of the people. Out of curiosity, what is your take on the topic? Were someone to take out one of your family members, what would you do? And as unlikely as it seems, I wouldn't rule out violence happening. Supposedly this wasn't supposed to go down the way it did, yet you had this sick **** sexually assault an 11yo. and burn the place down.

For what its worth, you'll note that in my posts I've made so far, I said that seeking revenge is more headache than its worth.

so we are talking about a person who kidnaps, rapes, and kills other human beings and you think he is going to be surrounded by loving family, innocent children, and people who are good?
Interesting.

Surrounded by them...probably not, but thats not to say that he doesnt have a decent family who cares about him, but due to him being a ****ed up outcast, they've got nothing to do with him anymore.
 
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Empty Hands

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EH, the fact that you find "kid raping" a normal part of the human condition is kinda scary

maybe in your family tree.
Not in the vast majority of human beings it isnt though, and where it is I would say its an abomination, not a condition.

During 2007, according to collected crime stats, 794,000 children were determined to be victims of abuse or neglect. In 2008 in the United States, 90,000 people reported being the victim of rape, and it is well understood that rape is highly underreported. In the United States in 2009, 15,241 people were murdered, and 806,843 were the victims of aggravated assault.

Of course rape, murder and mayhem are part of the human condition. As are a plethora of other unwholesome habits and tendencies, including the drive for revenge. Thus, the "human condition" is an excuse for nothing. We need to rise above the human condition, not sink down to it.
 

MA-Caver

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Justice is always better than revenge by any means. It's very very easy to say I would do this if they do that to me or my family. But when it comes right down to it... could we? WOULD we? ... It's very easy to say "I will kill you" but a far different thing to actually carry it out. How many of us have actually killed (OUTSIDE of Military/LEO) someone? I'd dare say not a lot. For if we did we would've had justice met upon us and be reading/typing replies to MT while in jail... if we're lucky. I've never killed anyone ... yes many times I've wanted to and several times have gotten into such a rage that I was more-n-likely capable. What about afterwards? How am I going to feel? How are YOU going to feel after you kill someone? Are you sure? 100% sure that you'll be able to put your head on your pillow at night peacefully, calmly, serenely? This is the real curse that revenge killing brings. Not eye for an eye and so on... but how we as human beings, with values towards life and preserving it. Sure we'd want a murderer, child molester, terrorist to have justice met upon them and if it means the death penalty so be it. We have people who have been trained/experienced in dealing death for those circumstances because our (present) laws calls for it. So their death doesn't bother us much... probably because we view it as justice. Fair trial and all that. We call the death of Osama BL justice... someone else can call it revenge. The soldiers were under orders to try and capture the man alive but kill him to prevent escape. Is it still justice? He was unarmed and could've been subdued... even with a well placed round in center mass which could be operated on and thus keeping him alive long enough to go to trial. But the soldier chose to go for the head shot and thus put an end to the man. If I'm not mistaken the law (here) says that if I see someone kill my father and I in turn kill him then I'm cited for murder of the first degree. If in the act of protecting my father from being killed I end up killing someone then it's rated as second degree... depending upon circumstances. Before the actual act I have to be damned careful about what I say to the potential killer. "You touch him and I'll kill you!"... can get me a first degree rap if I'm not mistaken. Is it revenge? No because it hasn't happened yet, what about after... I walk into the room find my father dead on the floor and a guy standing over his body with a bloody knife or smoking gun and I hear him say..."I got you sucker!" and I go over and kill him (somehow). That could be construed as revenge killing... even defensive killing if I testify in court that he came after me next. Either way I still go to jail and I have a man's death on my hands/head. So, how am I going to feel about that? Knowing that answer helps in knowing if killing is something I'm truly capable of. (edit) Honest to god there were spaces and paragraphs when I typed this all out.
 
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Empty Hands

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yeah, you did.

I said: normal human condition

you: so is kid rape

so, you pretty much did

No, I said kid rape is part of the human condition. As is the desire for revenge, and the word "normal" did not appear in your post. You said the desire was "understandable", but in any case, I made no claims to normalcy or how widespread child rape was, simply that it was also part of the human condition.

The point, which you are busily ignoring, is that the "human condition" is no justification for anything since it includes everything from the horrifying and evil to compassionate and good. It would be nice if we could actually address that point instead of deliberately ignoring it in favor of making insinuations about my family.
 

Twin Fist

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"ignoring it in favor of making insinuations about my family. "

first of all, i wasnt, (that was someone else)but even if i was, you do it everyday to anyone that disagrees with you, so.....i dont care.

that being said: it is perfectly normal to want revenge, and to seek it out, unlike kid rape, which is never normal
 

WC_lun

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Where does revenge end? The death of the person who wronged you? His family? His friends? The death of your family and friends? If you take another person's life for revenge, you are a murderer. Can you, your family, and friends live with that? Do you even truly know what that means? Have you ever been forced to commit violence on another human being? Unless you are an extremely disturbed individual there is no good feelings associated with it and quite a few pitfalls.

Most guys that talk so loudly about getting revenge if someone wronged them are either pounding htier chest like an ape or so ignorant that the concept of taking another person's life is not even real to them. It contimues to shock me at how callously some people talk about taking life.
 
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