Jr. Black Belt Test

[SL4Drew]

we do agree on a lot of things. I think the problem most people have is that at first it appeared as if you were stating that the only way to be successful was to use these tactics.

In the light of this discussion, I think I would say that in a competitive environment I believe you will have to. You could of course add 1,000 qualifiers to that statement, e.g. not in China, if you are not famous, and so on. But then I think it would lose its utility as a proposition.

With saying that it also seemed as if you were making an unsaid statement that successful meant the amount of money coming in as opposed to the amount of quality going out.

I would still say that the measure of commercial success is money. And that is why I suggested there was a tension that exists in schools committed to quality. It's a hard balancing act. When pinned down between choosing between the two, which do you choose? If commercial success is your primary goal, then turning away a student is counterproductive. I think perhaps the most slippery term in this whole discussion was 'commercial." I appreciated you bringing that up and attempting to clarifying that, sir.

You argued your point very well and now its obvious that you are merely saying that to have a school with a large enough income to support itself, quality taken out of the equation, that you need to employ 1 or more of said tactics.

Thanks. I have a good teacher. Except he is usually right when we disagree...

as far as i know, no it does not. you test for BB after 16 if the instructor thinks you are ready and after 18 if you feel you are ready. But again the kids class is much slowed paced....sorta. I say that because they progress faster rank wise but as they move up the belts material from the adult program is added in slowly...BB standards are the same if you 16 or 66 with regard to physical limitations

If understand you, the children learn the same material as the adults. So if they are younger than 16 and complete the black belt material, do they just stay at brown until 16?

 

[KempoGuy06]

In the light of this discussion, I think I would say that in a competitive environment I believe you will have to. You could of course add 1,000 qualifiers to that statement, e.g. not in China, if you are not famous, and so on. But then I think it would lose its utility as a proposition.

very good statement and I agree

I would still say that the measure of commercial success is money. And that is why I suggested there was a tension that exists in schools committed to quality. It's a hard balancing act. When pinned down between choosing between the two, which do you choose? If commercial success is your primary goal, then turning away a student is counterproductive. I think perhaps the most slippery term in this whole discussion was 'commercial." I appreciated you bringing that up and attempting to clarifying that, sir.

That statement is very true to this thread and to the MA community at large in my opinion. you are right though, its hard to chose one from the other but there is a middle ground that may or may not work, i guess the area you live in is the deciding factor. We have a large dojo here in town (more than one location) and from what Ive heard the quality is poor but I guess but the number of locations it is obvious which road he has chosen. The smaller schools are obviously an example of the other road.

Thanks. I have a good teacher. Except he is usually right when we disagree...

im in the same boat

If understand you, the children learn the same material as the adults. So if they are younger than 16 and complete the black belt material, do they just stay at brown until 16?

same except for kempos which are taught from white on in the adults class but arent taught until blue in the kids class. and most kids wont finish the BB material that much before they turn 16, they might have it all but it will take a long time for them to get it up to standards

B

 

[MJS]

There is another option: Have higher levels of Jr. Blackbelt that can be attained.
Once a child reaches a certain age, they may be eligible to test for full BB, but that doesn't mean that they have to. They shouldn't test until they are ready regardless of what the minimum age requirement is at a given school. Just my 2 cents.
You can slice and dice the various ranks in different ways, but the bottom line is to keep students learning, progressing, and motivated. Whatever method of grading can make that happen, to me , is good. The person makes the rank, the rank doesn't make the person. I have found that the students, and parents, that are there for the right reasons stick around. Those that aren't there for the right reasons don't usually make it to advanced levels anyway. It hasn't been an issue for us.

Great points! If I recall correctly, you use the higher levels of Jr. Black Belt, correct?

 

[MJS]

It can be done, but as stated, everything must be age appropriate, and its a lot of hard work. Mr. Parker didn't believe in junior black belts and set his personal age at 16. I remember Rick Carthew received his at the old Santa Monica School, and ended up fighting on the IKKA Team at that age. I raised it to 17 when I wrote the rules for the IKC. He knew that kids would overwhelm the business and assigned me the task of creating a way to deal with it, without corrupting adult ranks as a thesis project.

I developed a "cellular" approach that separated all ranks for him, and their associated curriculum by age. In my own experiments running "youth programs" I found with all ranks, but the young in particular, it doesn't matter what they wear around the waist as long as all their peers receive the same, under the same guidelines.

With this in mind I created a kids program, and a youth program with age appropriate material for each, and unique accouterment adornment rank belts. I also made provisions for age crossovers, where a child might be months away from a "crossover age point" when they begin the program. The adult program, 17 years and up, remained essentially unchanged.

Mr. Parker did have one proviso. While he suggested the kids black belt should be "available" for marketing purposes, he essentially wanted it to be unattainable by structure to all but the truly rare, (and he stressed rare), exceptional kid.

Doc, question for you. In the first paragraph, you said Mr. Parker didn't believe in the Jr. BB and set the age of 16. At what age did he accept students? Did he take 4 yr olds like we see schools do today? Now, depending on the starting age of the child, its possible that they could be sitting at Brown Belt for a while, if 16 is the age for black. If I'm correct in my assumption, did he find that people had an issue with waiting?

 

[MJS]

Here is something else to ponder. I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old. So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.

 

[SL4Drew]

Here is something else to ponder. I'd be willing to bet that if I pulled out the phone book, and called a dozen schools, asking what age they take kids, I'd be willing to bet all of them would say 4yrs old. So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.

Pot-stirrer.

 

[KempoGuy06]

maybe i dont know though there are only a couple younger than 6 at my school. most are older than 10

B

 

[stickarts]

My view is that martial arts for young kids is fantastic when the program is set up correctly. We do have programs for kids and the emphasis is on physical fitness, basics (punches and kicks, etc..), developing confidence and discipline, and interacting with other kids. As time goes on the skills they learn will be developed further. I have seen many success stories in our kids programs specifically with kids getting in better fitness and improved health, gaining greater confidence and doing better in school, and learning karate fundamentals.
In fact, I think martial arts programs are just what many kids need. They need a sense of structure and to learn to work hard and succeed from a young age.
In our case, we do have a large number of kids in our programs although we do also have a large adult program too. The other school owners that I have worked with are honest hard working people who actually don't make much money for all of their hard work that they do with the kids and with the rest of the school.
I think its important to take each school on a case by case basis when evaluating kids programs in the martial arts. While some may view it strictly as business, I personally know many who do not. They dedicate a lot of their personal time to help make a positive difference in the lives of others.
I view it just as I view many other activities. For example, we put our daughters in swimming programs at a very young age. They could not even stay afloat in the beginning and had to use floatation devices. Before you knew it, they were swimming around like little fishes!
Was the swimming program strictly commercial or was it of value?
Each person must form their own conclusion but I can say that my kids can swim now.

 

[JTKenpo]

So, instead of taking kids at such a young age, what about upping the age? Instead of 4, take them, at say, 10. So, for the 'commercial' school owner, does anyone feel that this would hinder them? We're only talking a 6yr difference here, and we're still taking kids, just not as young.

Why stop there, lets also give them a fitness test. If you can't pass the push up, sit up, jumping jack test of such and such a number then you can't join us super hero martial artist. I would say an IQ test is needed also since we do have pretty complex motion theory's concepts and principles and lets face some people just aren't as smart as us martial arts brainiacs.....

 

[MJS]

Why stop there, lets also give them a fitness test. If you can't pass the push up, sit up, jumping jack test of such and such a number then you can't join us super hero martial artist. I would say an IQ test is needed also since we do have pretty complex motion theory's concepts and principles and lets face some people just aren't as smart as us martial arts brainiacs.....

Have I been saying something that is offending you? I ask, because the obvious sarcasm, is, well...obvious.

Let me say this....in the end, it won't matter what I or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. I know what I do, I know what my teachers do, and I know what others are doing, especially if they put stuff like this on youtube. Thank God there're some non McDojos out there that don't offer the fries and coke with the belt.

Is every commercial school a McDojo? No, but teachers should make an effort to stand up for whats right and have the stones to tell people when they're not up to par. What about that Kaju saying, "We're not a if you can afford it, we award it art." Do you disagree with that?

Its sad when you hear people bash an art because there're guys running around slapping the bars on their belt, passing out belts to people who don't deserve it, the list goes on and on and on.

I'm simply saying, if you want to teach kids, great, teach them. If you don't, then don't teach them. But put the quality before the quantity. Of course, judging by your comments, I almost get the impression that you condone what McDojos do. You get upset when people talk about high rank, you get upset when people talk about training in 20 different arts, with 8th and 9th degrees in all of them. Guess I can't win.

Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em. If that offends someone, what can I say. Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.

 

[Tez3]

I teach two classes of children, a class for the 4-7 and a class for 7 to about 14. We don't do blackbelts for them. At 14/15 they can move up to my adult class and work for a BB from there.
I will defend starting children so young in my area because there is a need for the children to. Most of their fathers and some others too are serving soldiers, many are away in Afghanistan at the memont, the remaining parents structure their childrens routines so that they have stability. My classes for the very young ones teaches them basic martial arts, co-ordination, listening skills etc and gives them a rough and tumble time with male adults that they miss when their fathers are away. Should a martial arts club be doing this? In our case yes, we are part of the community here and those of you in the military or ex military know how that works.
We don't do it for the money (what money lol?) I teach children because I enjoy it, though I don't enjoy some of the parents sometimes.
I remember a long time ago being told theres no bad students...only bad instructors. If a student is failing I take it that I have failed and will do everything I can to get that person child or not up to a standard they can be proud of and usefully employ if needed.

 

[MJS]

It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better?

The real problem are the instructors and their programs. I can't hardly fault a kid that wants to learn martial arts, any more than a kid that wants to shot a BB gun, go camping, or play football. I'll repeat what I said now for the third time, I believe in age appropriate curriculum. You can learn math, English, or just about any subject at any age--so long as it is age appropriate. It's just plain nonsense to suggest that kids younger that 16 or 18 can't get any benefit from a good program. Japan and China teach various arts to their school kids, and last I checked some of them grow up to be fine martial artists.

There seems to be two objections: awarding a black belt and whether children can learn. If you want kids to look like adults or preform like adults they can't. I agree. But they can achieve high levels of success in an age appropriate program (fourth time). So far I haven't heard from a single person that has actually worked with kids. As far as I am concerned, everyone is disagreeing with me on the basis of an uninformed opinion. And my proof is here:

Mr. Oda was about 19 here. You think he got this good in a year?

Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.

And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement. In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be.

A few things. I've taught kids classes for many years. The kids ranged in age from 4 to one in their teens. Sure, there were some young kids, who were naturals. You could show them something, they'd retain it, and be able to perform it, and yes, it looked good. Of course, there were the ones who probably should not have been enrolled, because their lack of attention and lack of retention was poor. For those kids, I'd usually suggest private lessons to the parents, so 1 on 1 attention could be given. Its hard to give that 1 on 1, in a room of 20.

If the Jr. BB is going to be used, fine, use it. However, it should be made clear and up front, before any contract is signed, before the kid even sets foot on the dojo floor, that things are earned, not given. If a parent can't accept that their child may have to wait X amount of time, until they're old enough, then perhaps the best route to take would be to point them in the direction of a school who has no issues with the fast food mentality.

Sadly, parents will most likely flock to the McDojo, making them rich, while the legit school suffers. Parents will think that their child will actually be good, that their child will actually be able to pull off a move, and that he actually put hard work and sweat into getting that belt. So the Mcdojo owner will gladly hand over the belt, coke and fries, laughing all the way to the bank. People don't want to work, or earn anything anymore, and that is sad. They want everything spoon fed to them, while patting them on the back, telling them these bogus lies, making them believe that they're BB material.

 

[MJS]

I teach two classes of children, a class for the 4-7 and a class for 7 to about 14. We don't do blackbelts for them. At 14/15 they can move up to my adult class and work for a BB from there.
I will defend starting children so young in my area because there is a need for the children to. Most of their fathers and some others too are serving soldiers, many are away in Afghanistan at the memont, the remaining parents structure their childrens routines so that they have stability. My classes for the very young ones teaches them basic martial arts, co-ordination, listening skills etc and gives them a rough and tumble time with male adults that they miss when their fathers are away. Should a martial arts club be doing this? In our case yes, we are part of the community here and those of you in the military or ex military know how that works.
We don't do it for the money (what money lol?) I teach children because I enjoy it, though I don't enjoy some of the parents sometimes.
I remember a long time ago being told theres no bad students...only bad instructors. If a student is failing I take it that I have failed and will do everything I can to get that person child or not up to a standard they can be proud of and usefully employ if needed.

Could you clarify for me what you mean by basic martial arts? What or should I say how much material are you teaching?

 

[SL4Drew]

Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em. If that offends someone, what can I say. Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.

I'll save a seat for you on the bus. We'll ride it together.

 

[SL4Drew]

If the Jr. BB is going to be used, fine, use it. However, it should be made clear and up front, before any contract is signed, before the kid even sets foot on the dojo floor, that things are earned, not given. If a parent can't accept that their child may have to wait X amount of time, until they're old enough, then perhaps the best route to take would be to point them in the direction of a school who has no issues with the fast food mentality.

Sadly, parents will most likely flock to the McDojo, making them rich, while the legit school suffers. Parents will think that their child will actually be good, that their child will actually be able to pull off a move, and that he actually put hard work and sweat into getting that belt. So the Mcdojo owner will gladly hand over the belt, coke and fries, laughing all the way to the bank. People don't want to work, or earn anything anymore, and that is sad. They want everything spoon fed to them, while patting them on the back, telling them these bogus lies, making them believe that they're BB material.

Exactly. Which is what makes competing with them so hard for the good guy trying to do it right and make a living at it.

 

[Carol]

Personally I'm not fond of the idea of a junior black belt. I'd rather see kids given a separate title all their own, and give them a chance to have a little bit of fun with their success. Call them a candidate, a dragon, a tiger, a ninja and give them the chance to pick out a belt of their own that isn't used by anyone else in the program, such as a camo belt or a silver belt or a red-white-and-blue belt, and then have them test for black when they are physically and emotionally ready for it. I tend to lean towards 18 as a benchmark because of the eyes of the law, but I know there are some kids out there that are ready for an adult black belt before then. Conversely there are others that won't be ready for a black belt by then as well.

 

[JadeDragon3]

i dont not agree, in no way should you have to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.

sorry my .02

B

What is the big deal with not giving a kid a black belt. If the kid does everything that the adults do then why not? I'm 35 years old and got my black sash in Sil Lum Kung Fu when I was 17 BUT I did everything that the adults did. I had to break a concrete block, sparr my Sifu (teacher), and sparr the assistant instructor, do all the exercises the adults did (run 5 miles, push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, hold horse stance for long time, etc...), and then perform ALL the material that adults did. Of course I was wrestling for my high school so I was in the best shape of my life when it came time to test for my black sash. Why should I have been deprived of my black sash?

 

[stickarts]

One positive thing that I have noticed is that more and more students coming in are better educated on schools and programs than they used to be. Many have either gotten referrals from other students in our programs or in other cases they have visited several schools, watched classes, and done on-line research before joining. There are still some that just come in because they like our location or the price, however, it's surprising how much research some people are actually doing now before committing. I think this is good. The more educated the public can be the better. That still won't stop those that want to take the fast track, but its a step in the right direction. There will always be some that are quality minded, and some that are not. And that applies to students and schools.

 

[MJS]

Lets do some comparison. Here we have a student from Kingis Kajukenbo going for her Jr. BB.

Compare the intensity in her form vs. the students in the other clip. I see Jasmine actually showing some intensity, yet in the other clip, its more just going thru the moves.

Look at the difference in the sparring in this clip.

Another Jr. BB test

A few clips from John Bishops Kaju school

 

[JTKenpo]

Have I been saying something that is offending you? I ask, because the obvious sarcasm, is, well...obvious.

Let me say this....in the end, it won't matter what I or anyone else thinks, because people will keep on doing what they're doing. I know what I do, I know what my teachers do, and I know what others are doing, especially if they put stuff like this on youtube. Thank God there're some non McDojos out there that don't offer the fries and coke with the belt.

Is every commercial school a McDojo? No, but teachers should make an effort to stand up for whats right and have the stones to tell people when they're not up to par. What about that Kaju saying, "We're not a if you can afford it, we award it art." Do you disagree with that?

Its sad when you hear people bash an art because there're guys running around slapping the bars on their belt, passing out belts to people who don't deserve it, the list goes on and on and on.

I'm simply saying, if you want to teach kids, great, teach them. If you don't, then don't teach them. But put the quality before the quantity. Of course, judging by your comments, I almost get the impression that you condone what McDojos do. You get upset when people talk about high rank, you get upset when people talk about training in 20 different arts, with 8th and 9th degrees in all of them. Guess I can't win.

Sorry man, I call 'em like I see 'em. If that offends someone, what can I say. Perhaps instead of bashing those who think clips like this suck, perhaps you can justify for us, why you think this kid is good, why you think teachers should pass out rank like its free, and why people can train in 10 arts, reach a high rank, yet only be in their late 40s, early 50s.

Aaaahhh struck a cord there didn't I..No one said you weren't allowed to call them like you see em. You can bash anybody you want to, but while you do just remember that somewhere in your training hall there exists a code of conduct that has words like etiquette, honor, and respect.

This kid got his JR black belt, so what. Does it make you any more or less of a martial artist? Is there injustice in the world yup, is there rank inflation yuuup, is there people out there making a ton of money teaching junk I suppose so I read the so called martial arts mags, get the emails telling me how to better run my school by charging for every little thing I offer.

Phew sounds like you been holding that in a long time man, you shouldn't let the little things bother you, but hey you got a vendetta thats fine have at it. I like you am offering my opinion. I do not think teaching kids is a bad idea, I think that anyone can learn something from the martial arts. Will I deny someone that has performed to the best of their ability because somewhere along the line some one else decided ther is an age limit on ability.

And you should know by now there isn't any winning, just playing the game.....oh and I believe I said in my first post I won't be commenting on the clip.

Peace brotha