Is there a connection ??

[Tgace]

As part of another thread I posted this from...
http://www.quest-l.com/collection/teaching.php

I realize that it is not the kind of thing some people really want to hear, but one of several reasons that I stopped teaching stealth and "sneaky" survival courses after the 1980s was that I had tended to attract a lot of people with some major social and psychological defects as a result of being "the ninja guy" who dominated the martial arts media of the 1980s.



It seems that a lot of people who are attracted to creepy things are... ...well, kind of creepy.

Maybe someday I will write a small book about all the unbelievable but very true adventures I had with creepy people who abandoned their families, stormed out on dads who warned them that they were losers, and hugged their fantasy novels (in the Carlos Castaneda and Hobbit days of 20 years ago) to move to Dayton and "be a ninja".

And of course, with all of the penniless "dustballs" hanging around my scene, all of the real producers and influential people of society stayed away from what must have looked like a cult of weird outcasts.

I went somewhat underground in the late 1980s, leaving the media scene and doing things in protective services that allowed me to test out and explore what I had learned, and what it was that real people seemed to need most in life.

When I re-emerged in the mid 1990s, I realized that Hatsumi Sensei knew what he was saying when he urged me to withhold most of the ninja material that I had been taught as a student in Japan in the 1970s. Yes, there was a good reason that Hatsumi Sensei changed the gi fronts from NIN to BUJIN when all the books in America (sorry!) forced him to open the dojo to the public in the early 1980s.

We offered To-Shin Do as "self defense and self-development" when I came back to the public in 1996, and I am delighted with the caliber (and number) of people that are now a part of my life.

I was just extremely fortunate to have been there at the right time to have been taught authentic ninjutsu. Actually, my first 3 degree certificates were in Togakure ryu, not Bujinkan Dojo martial arts. As it turned out, I was there for the years when Sensei was verifying what he had been taught by his teacher. I was lucky, in that I got to learn the real ninjutsu (without the creepy people around!) that Hatsumi Sensei has been working for almost 20 years now to put back in the shadows.

That said, it seems that there is considerable demand from good Quest Center people for actual training in the stealth aspects of what is the root art of To-Shin Do.

Let me work on putting together a workshop and some curriculum elements that can be practiced after the workshop is over, and I will discretely get word out to the Quest Center students and persons who are in sympathy with what we are doing.





This will take quite a bit of time to arrange (do not look for the seminar in the next few months - maybe not even in 2001), and I will warn you many times before you get to the training grounds that real ninjutsu mind and invisibility training is probably not anything at all like what most 1980s movie-goers might expect.

- Stephen K. Hayes​

​

​

It started me thinking about a topic a good friend of mine and I have tossed around a couple of times. At the risk of exposing my Geek past...Im a 30 something that came of age back in the early 80's. While not a bonafide "Geek" or outcast I wasnt a "popular" person or "Jock" back in HS. I was a D&D player, sci-fi/fantasy fan and "Ninja" wannabe that gobbled up every Steven K. Hayes book that I could get my hands on. My buddies and I used to run the neighborhoods in blacks-n-tabi shoes, scaling buildings, pilfering beers from under the noses of beach partygoers and doing all sorts of things that I now get paid for to stop (ironic aint it?). I also picked up an interest in the martial arts. Was it from the D&D, the "ninja" craze? I dont know. I suppose I would have been a fringe type that now-a-days would draw some Columbine style attention.​

Out of my group of friends who were "into" this stuff, there was a fairly large contingent that used our "hobbies" as a springboard and translated this interest into military service after HS. I joined and after a circuitous path wound up an LEO. On the other hand there are some that still find themselves playing D&D and reminiscing about the "good ole days". In my personal experience (disclaimer) I found a significant number of MA'ists who use the arts as a sort of manifestation of their fantasy life. I dont necessarily believe that thats a "bad thing". If somebody wants to spend their own time and $$ and isnt hurting anybody, what do I care? Its just a theme that I find recurring the longer I look.​

What do you all think...do MA attract a "type"? Does the "Geek factor" influence people to join martial arts as a method of gaining self-esteem? Do some people have a "natural" interest in things similar to those I mentioned and the MA are just an extention of those interests?​

 

[Flatlander]

I think that certainly exists. I've met a few "geeks" in life who were using their training to gain self esteem and acceptance among their peers. After starting out, I stayed in for the self esteem aspect. But now its much more than that.

But I think that although there may be a "geek" factor, There's more to it than that. Not all geeks join MA. Just particular ones. I think that it speaks to an underlying quality of people in general. There is something that draws us. Some of us geeks, some of us not geeks (denial!).:asian:

 

[bluenosekenpo]

What do you all think...do MA attract a "type"? Does the "Geek factor" influence people to join martial arts as a method of gaining self-esteem? Do some people have a "natural" interest in things similar to those I mentioned and the MA are just an extention of those interests?[/left]

from what i've seen it's not just one type (keep in mind i'm a newbie, and my experience is pretty limited).

the type i see more often and the one i really have a problem comprehending is the magic pill wannabee. this student will come to a private class, very few if any group classes, rarely practice at home and yet be totally perplexed that they don't progress as rapidly as someone willing to put themselves out, training, studying, experimenting and generally trying to understand not just their art but the ma's in general. the best description of this student and how not to be this student is best explained by Tomoyose Ryuko, 9th dan Uechi Ryu.


Training: Tigers and Sheep

Sometimes karate training can be called training as a tiger or training as
a sheep. If you train as a tiger -- hard training and body conditioning --
you can always train with tigers. Other tigers will also recognize you and
you can train in peace with them. They know that when two tigers really
fight that one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries
tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove.

If you train like a sheep -- no contact and no two-man conditioning --
then you can only train with sheep. A tiger can train with tigers and he can
also train with sheep. He just has to be careful not to hurt them. A sheep
cannot train with tigers. Sheep see tigers as being very frightening and
their conditioning, he says, will cause cancer. A sheep training with tigers
will get eaten up.

Sometimes you see a sheep who sees the truth of tiger training and
changes. In reality this sheep was actually a tiger in sheep's clothing
waiting to come out.

Watch people training. Look at how they act and how they behave. A tiger
can be like a little kitty but dangerous even though he is friendly. They
are quiet and watch everything. They listen and watch. They know who they
are and they have nothing to prove -- they are at peace.

Sheep, on the other hand, make all kinds of noises and demand to be heard.
They run around and seem to crave attention. They are easily hurt and easily
scared. They always group together for their own protection. When danger
approaches they look towards the group for protection because they cannot
defend themselves. They are easy prey for tigers -- whether it is one sheep
or several, sheep are still sheep.

-- Ryuko Tomoyose, Uechi-ryu


:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Warning...long post ahead! :boing2:

I think there is an overwhelmingly huge "geek factor" in martial arts. There is the old saying, "People start martial arts for self-defense, but they stay for other reasons." If self-defense was the only reason someone had for taking a martial art, then they'd be done in 2 weeks to 6 months.

I think the biggest 2 reasons people stay in martial arts is #1. Ego and #2. Fantasy. The two most often go hand and hand. Both of these can be very destructive if that becomes your main reason for training, however. I'd actually rather see someone in a happy-slappy family oriented Christian-Karate school, where their reasons for training is family values and comradory, rather then see someone training with a fantasy-ego driven instructor. You are unlikely to learn good self-defense in either school, but hey, at least you'll be in a positive environment in the happy-slappy school.

To use a Judeo-Christian allegory, ego's and fantasy is to the good martial artist as pride was to Lucifer. The nutshell of the allegory is that Lucifer thought he was the S**t and better then everyone else because he was very smart, talented, beautiful, and all that stuff; so his own pride and ego built the fantasy that he was better then God around these things, and it ultimatily led to his downfall. I have seen many talented martial artists get caught up in fantasy-ego, which stunts any further growth or success for them, and if gone too far, can be their downfall. The fantasy in this case doesn't have to go as far as "I can levitate and shoot lightening out of my eyes" type stuff. It can be the simple fantasy of "I'm the best knife guy in my state"(with no real basis behind it) or "I know what Master-so-and-so and his art is REALLY about, and no one else does!" These are fantasies. Have you gone to every instructor in your state to see what they are doing for knife training to know that your program is the best? Even if you did, by what imperical method could you verify this claim by? The fantasy-ego problem can be seen more readily when the head of a system passes on. I experienced this directly with the passing of my teacher Professor Remy Presas. Everyone came out of the woodwork claiming authority, seeming to act as if they or their organization is the ultimate authority on Modern Arnis. Some of this has quieted down, but it still seems quietly present. There is a race to be the next Remy Presas on paper...people trying to fill Remy's shoes when instead they should get out the leather and rubber and start making their own shoes. Modern Arnis is no exception to a common practice either. How many JKD-ers claimed ultimate authority over Bruce Lee's methods? How many Kenpoist's claim the monopoly over Ed Parkers wisdom? It's all fantasy and ego. Yes...I would say that Fantasy and Ego can be the antithisis to greatness in the martial arts.

So, is fantasy or ego ever "O.K.?" I think we all have these things from time to time in our lives; so short periods that lead to learning experiences are probably O.K. if the end result is positive. Like Tom, I had "Ninja Fantasies" too, which led to my explorations and study into combative arts at age 12 1/2, instead of just focusing on sport-based styles at my TKD-kickboxing school. When I started to get good at sparring as a teen, I started to think I was the stuff (ego), which led to a humbleing learning experience handed to me by world-class tournament sparer. The difference is, even when I was a kid, I could seperate my fantasy and ego from reality. I knew I wasn't a "ninja," even though I had fun running around the neighborhood dressed in black. I knew that as a teenager there was no possable way I was the best at sparring out there, and sure enough, I had my a$$ handed to me at the appropriate time. I think that Fantasy and Ego becomes dangerous when it is prolonged, and when it takes over and becomes a percieved reality.

So, what positive thing can we do about it? Ho do we prevent ourselves and our students from getting caught in the fantasy/ego trap? We learn to change Fantasy to Spirituality (for lack of a better word) and we learn to turn Ego into self-confidence (or rather, make sure we maintain self-confidence without the ego).

Now, "spirituality" creates many conflicts and peoples minds, so you'll have to think outside of the box to understand what I am refering to. I am not refering to "religious experiences" per say when I am speaking about spiritual aspects of martial arts. The best way to explain this is through example. When it is nice and warm and green out in my yard, I like to go off into the woods with my bolo. I like to do striking patterns, forms, and my basic visualization/movement with the live blade. The greenery makes me feel like I might be in the jungles of the Philippines, or even in Celtic or native American tribal times. I feel like I am in a different time/place as I move. There is a bit of nestolgia here; as I imagine what it would be like to be in a different time or place, where my sword was a tool for my survival instead of just a decorative "training" tool. I breath deep, as I imagine, picture, and move. When I walk back up the steps to my door I feel refreshed and reguvinated. This is an example of a spiritual experience. I got training in, I was able to practice my movements with visualization and imagination as a valuable training tool. Yet, I still understand the reality that I am not some ancient tribal warrior; I have work, a car, and bills to pay like most other people. I know what is practical for self defense in this day and age, and what I train to help my abilites and attributes that may not be as practical. That is an example of the spiritual aspect of martial arts, and is a very valuable part of the arts that should not be neglected. However, if I started to believe that I was an ancient warrior trapped in modern times, or that I was somehow researching the ancient art of Lapu-Lapu in my backyard, or (insert unreality here) then that would be fantasy. If I started to think that I was "at one" with my art because of my experiences, and others could not somehow be to my level because of these, then that would be fantasy. Deserting ones job and family to live out a martial fantasy (like moving to Dayton to become a "ninja") is fantasy taken way to far. So you see, fantasy is dangerous, where as spiritual experiences in martial arts can be valuable.

Self confidence is also important, but simply taken to far into fantasy land is where ego kicks in. If I am confident but realistic, then I know that I can handle myself, but I still have great room for improvement. If I am egotistical, then I believe that no one can kick my a$$ (which would not be true), so why improve my abilities? This is an extreme example, but it is much easier to understand how ego's in martial arts can be very destructive, where as confidence can be a positive motivator.

So, my conclusion...I think that fantasy and ego are the antithisis to good martial arts developement and growth. I think that every one of us has a little bit of these at one time or another, but these should not be prolonged, and should lead to positive learning experiences. Overtime, Fantasy should be changed to spiritual experiences, and Ego should be overcome and replaced with healthy self confidence. It seems rare to find that these days.

PAUL

 

[Tgace]

Very good post there Paul and hitting the topic I intended....this has been a "coffee talk" topic of Paul M. and mine for a while. Is the fantasy stuff a defect planted by bad HS experiences, a symptom of some cultural phenomena, or something else??

 

[Tgace]

Anecdote: I was working an undercover detail at a local flea-market and was watching the "Goth" type teens with their piercings, make-up and Matrix style clothes. They were at some stands buying those cheap "highlander" katana-type swords (the ones with skull/dragon head pommels) strapping them across their backs and stalking around like they were waiting for a ninja attack....in retrospect, when I was a kid I was into the whole "ninja" black+BDU look myself. Just got me thinking about how many adults arent too many steps away from this themselves.

 

[loki09789]

Very good post there Paul and hitting the topic I intended....this has been a "coffee talk" topic of Paul M. and mine for a while. Is the fantasy stuff a defect planted by bad HS experiences, a symptom of some cultural phenomena, or something else??

This won't be a revolation to Tom but I think that the self validation aspect of martial arts, the sense of accomplishement and pride from hard work is fine as long as it doesn't become the only or first motivation of training. We grow when we serve something/someone other than ourselves. If a student/instructor is motivated by self validating reasons first, it will show. How many seminars, hip pocket guest instruction events or outright camps have any of us been too where the majority of demonstration/instruction time was telling war stories/self promotion or lineage promotion (invoking self promotion through the association) and name dropping... there is a difference between using such info for credibility and using such information to invoke adoration....

 

[Ender]

Anecdote: I was working an undercover detail at a local flea-market and was watching the "Goth" type teens with their piercings, make-up and Matrix style clothes. They were at some stands buying those cheap "highlander" katana-type swords (the ones with skull/dragon head pommels) strapping them across their backs and stalking around like they were waiting for a ninja attack....in retrospect, when I was a kid I was into the whole "ninja" black+BDU look myself. Just got me thinking about how many adults arent too many steps away from this themselves.

If only they would use the Force for good instead of evil.....

 

[Touch Of Death]

Kung Fu Movies and "Destroyer" Novels are what led me to train. "Destroyer" lost me once they Broke 100, but I'm still a sucker for the next big MA flick. :asian:
Sean

 

[loki09789]

I cringe at how much it resembles my life when I think about the scene in ET where Elliot is walking away from the bus stop shouting back and forth with someone:

"0 charisma"
"negative strength"
"-10 intelligence"
Using character traits as insults..... oh god save me from the 80's!

 

[Tgace]

Check it out....
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000336.html

 

[Cruentus]

Check it out....
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000336.html

I can't because my work computuer screens anything that might be a "Violent site," and that came up. Arrrgh. :angry: :mp5:

 

[Flatlander]

I tried to read it all but I had to stop. Those are real geeks.

 

[OULobo]

I can't remember any really bad HS experiences. I was by no means a tough guy, but I had connections in every clique' so I didn't have to worry much. A that point I was more worried about chicks and getting into college. When I was in Jr. high, I was a closet RPG gamer, loved comics, metal and fantasy novels. The reason I hit on MAs was first my brother who was in college taking Aikido, and second the whole ninja/movie thing.

As I got older I continued in the martial arts for many other reasons, but I did notice that there were certain beginner archtypes that continue to show up all the time.

The fanta-geek - A gamer (PC and/or paper), Ren. fest attender, comic reader, usually loves metal or techno and is a anime/scifi/horror/action movie buff. Generally out of shape, but usually has intense or even fanatical interest. Will argue the superman vs batman vs spiderman vs wolverine debate. Can quote every variation of a +1 sword.

The super-specop - Completely wrapped up in the idea that they can kill anything at anytime and that the only thing really worth any training is full contact realistic combat based tactics. Is in great shape but often sports a persistant beer gut and often has an intense even fanatical motivation. Is often left out of drills as many people see him as a certifiable nutjob. They are usually found at gun shows, in the woods or reading Tom Clancy/Marchanko novels. Will argue the SEALs vs Rangers vs Green Berets vs Recon debate. Can quote the second amendment verbatim.

The little buddah - Seeks enlightenment and knowledge at the feet of the master. His quest for the golden glow has led him the nearest MA school. He generally does his own research and is ultra intellectual about all subjects. Very quiet and seeks to meditate as often as train. Not competative (until he gets hit) and always avoids violence (until he gets hit). In good shape, but thin, due to vegatarian lifestyle. Usually found at coffee houses, museums, watching Fallini films and reading Nietze(sp). Will argue the validity of Buddism vs Islam vs Shinto vs Hindu debate. Can name the shoe size of every major philosopher.

The uber-jock - Their life revolves around the need to compete. They train forms and technique only to keep the teacher happy so he'll be allowed to spar later. The largest ego in the room, so large it usually takes up the room. Secretly doesn't want everyone to know that he didn't make the football team and is overcompensating. Gives lip service to all aspects of MAs until it doesn't fit his lifestyle. In perfect shape, due to constant training and buffing, and usually has perfect hair even when sweaty during training. Usually found in the weight room, showing off to the new female students, primping in front of the mirror and at the high school football game. Will argue with any judge that didn't give him a 10 or a win. Can name his fight record and the name every girl at the tournament (with their phone numbers).

Add to the list as you will.

 

[Tgace]

HA! Thats great...I must admit that I found myself crossing boundaries through those categories over the years.

 

[OULobo]

HA! Thats great...I must admit that I found myself crossing boundaries through those categories over the years.

Me too, I can make all those statments because, in truth, each of them resides in me from time to time.

 

[Tgace]

I dont want people to think that I started this thread to poke fun at people. I think that stuff like this is natural, the trouble starts when you carry it past a certain stage and/or past a certain age.


The Jargon Dictionary : A Portrait of J. Random Hacker : Physical Activity and Sports

Physical Activity and Sports



Many (perhaps even most) hackers don't follow or do sports at all and are determinedly anti-physical. Among those who do, interest in spectator sports is low to non-existent; sports are something one does, not something one watches on TV.

Further, hackers avoid most team sports like the plague. Volleyball was long a notable exception, perhaps because it's non-contact and relatively friendly; Ultimate Frisbee has become quite popular for similar reasons. Hacker sports are almost always primarily self-competitive ones involving concentration, stamina, and micromotor skills: martial arts, bicycling, auto racing, kite flying, hiking, rock climbing, aviation, target-shooting, sailing, caving, juggling, skiing, skating, skydiving, scuba diving. Hackers' delight in techno-toys also tends to draw them towards hobbies with nifty complicated equipment that they can tinker with.

The popularity of martial arts in the hacker culture deserves special mention. Many observers have noted it, and the connection has grown noticeably stronger over time. In the 1970s, many hackers admired martial arts disciplines from a distance, sensing a compatible ideal in their exaltation of skill through rigorous self-discipline and concentration. As martial arts became increasingly mainstreamed in the U.S. and other western countries, hackers moved from admiring to doing in large numbers. In 1997, for example, your humble editor recalls sitting down with five strangers at the first Perl conference and discovering that four of us were in active training in some sort of martial art - and, what is more interesting, nobody at the table found this particularly odd.

Today (2000), martial arts seems to have become established as the hacker exercise form of choice, and the martial-arts culture combining skill-centered elitism with a willingness to let anybody join seems a stronger parallel to hacker behavior than ever. Common usages in hacker slang un-ironically analogize programming to kung fu (thus, one hears talk of "code-fu" or in reference to specific skills like "HTML-fu"). Albeit with slightly more irony, today's hackers readily analogize assimilation into the hacker culture with the plot of a Jet Li movie: the aspiring newbie studies with masters of the tradition, develops his art through deep meditation, ventures forth to perform heroic feats of hacking, and eventually becomes a master who trains the next generation of newbies.

 

[Shinzu]

i was always into the ninja thing. wanted to even train in stealth one day. i used to have the whole get up when i was younger. it was fun to pretend, but it would have been better if it were real.

you could say that by training in the arts, it has fullfilled some of my childhood dreams.... i never regreted a thing

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't think any particular type of person joins martial arts initially. Some want self defense, some want self defense for the kids, some want exercise, some are attracted to what they think Oriental martial arts are about.
However, the ones that stay and train seriously are definitely different. I'm not talking about the ones who just train for tournaments. Those are athletes, just in a non-western sport. No, the ones who stay and train seriously are, as another poster put it, like tigers. They tend to be solitary, but not antisocial. Just not into group activities. Tigers have this tremendous inner power that other animals fear and respect.
Serious martial artists, such as traditional Tae Kwon Do or karate students are the same way. They have this tremendous inner power (ki energy) that causes a great deal of fear and respect in non martial arts. It's not intimidation. Non students are not afraid of us, but they know almost instinctively that there in an energy in us that must be respected. I don't know very many people that have this, even fellow TKD students. These people are the type that when they walk into a room, everyone knows they are there. They are not attention hogs. Quite the opposite. They are actually rather reclusive, like tigers.
Just for the record, anyone who calls themselves "Kwan Jang" or "Supreme Grandmaster" does not have this inner power. They'd like to think they do, but they don't. And having a 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th Dan in whatever does not mean you have it either.

 

[terryl965]

Very well put MichiganTKD, I could not say it any better than you just said... God Bless YOU and America