Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[Senin]

I had the great opportunity to exchange emails with Mr Hayes. I told him that I wondered where his mental/spiritual practices (as outlined in his books) came from since the current Bujinkan did not seem to place a great emphasis on that type of thing.

Mr Hayes replied that in the early days was a much deeper experience practiced by only a few people. Mr Hayes stated that he used to stay after class for hours talking with Hatsumi Sensei about all topics ? real fighting, spiritual aspects, secrets of the warrior mind-set, ninja tactics.

Mr Hayes then stated that he went on to seek out additional sources of information beyond the dojo at Hatsumi Sensei?s suggestion.

By the mid-1980s, the Japanese instructors seemed to choose to reduce emphasis on depth inner training in order to make room for more people who might not be inclined to pursue such depth.

It would seem that the Bujinkan has changed over the years. The pursuits of the 70's are not the same as the pursuits of the 00's. Just like the training then is much different than the training now.

I remember it being said that back then the training was hard and never fun. Now it seems every one has a good time.

This reminds me of the difference between aikido and aikijutsu.

 

[Don Roley]

Mr Hayes then stated that he went on to seek out additional sources of information beyond the dojo at Hatsumi Sensei?s suggestion.

I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west did not come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Mr Hayes replied that in the early days was a much deeper experience practiced by only a few people.

With no disrespect intended towards Mr Hayes, who is he to say that taijutsu practice can't be just as deep and fulfilling for someone nowadays who doesn't have his training background?

Mr Hayes stated that he used to stay after class for hours talking with Hatsumi Sensei about all topics ? real fighting, spiritual aspects, secrets of the warrior mind-set, ninja tactics.

Where do you think the post-seminar phrase "and now it's time for a couple of beers and a few truths" came from?

By the mid-1980s, the Japanese instructors seemed to choose to reduce emphasis on depth inner training in order to make room for more people who might not be inclined to pursue such depth.

Couldn't it just be as simple as this, that people were getting focused on the (perceived or otherwise) spiritual aspects to such an extent that they started neglecting their taijutsu?

It would seem that the Bujinkan has changed over the years. The pursuits of the 70's are not the same as the pursuits of the 00's.

Whose pursuits?

I remember it being said that back then the training was hard and never fun. Now it seems every one has a good time.

Tell that to the guy whose arm I thought for a moment I'd broken last weekend when he tried to resist my bodyweight focused on my right knee over his left elbow (I didn't even put pressure on it, mind you - I just jumped forward on my other leg to improve my balance, and down he went).

This reminds me of the difference between aikido and aikijutsu.

Let me tell you what all the talk of enlightenment sometimes reminds me of...

 

[Fallen Ninja]

I might be inclined to agree. The Togakure video I have shows some pretty extensive physical training. In fact you look and most everyone was well in shape. Now it seems like we have more overweight people in the Bujinkan than Sumo. (intended to be a joke) :rofl:

I have not yet had to practice flipping over swords and other projectiles. And unfortunatley I am a bit flabby around the middle to do some of the stuff on that video. Does it affect my movement... to be determined.

:ninja:

 

[cloud]

I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west did not come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.

I once had a history teacher who told me exactly what book, what page and what paragraph to get the information from when I ask him for reference to write my essay. Later, he commented that the essay's was not strong enough to support the arguments. It could have been me who wrote an essay in a way that the arument become unsupportive. Or it could be the teacher who suggest incorrect soruce of info. But either way, it is undeniably the teacher responsible for what he suggest the students to get the information, knowing what the students would most likely do with it. My class has about 60 students, meet with the teacher twice a week for 40mins each time and have to direct contact with him really. How many students were in the dojo in the 70's?

Cloud

 

[Don Roley]

But either way, it is undeniably the teacher responsible for what he suggest the students to get the information, knowing what the students would most likely do with it.

I do not think that Hatsumi really pushed Hayes to the sources he used and I do not think that a teacher can be held resposible for his students failings. I am what I am only due to the efforts of my teachers. But they are not responsible for my failings. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.

 

[eyebeams]

I do not know if Hatsumi really suggested it or if Hayes had a problem with translation, etc. But it is nice to see that he is saying that a lot of what he passed off in the west did not come from Hatsumi or was being taught in Japan. This may ease a lot of the friction we see.

Hm. See, the funny thing is that Hayes' teachings resemble Jinenkan and Genbukan teachings in many respects. I remember reading, for example, about "elemental" affinities in Jinenkan techniques despite the fact that Hayes is supposed to have made all of that up. I suppose those styles could have made those sorts of thing up to in an incredible case of parallel development, but then again, it also looks like Hatsumi did indeed teach differently at one time and there is a consistent set of similarities in this differences ("harder" execution of techniques, direct ninjutsu being taught, more overt references to spiritual elements).

 

[Don Roley]

it also looks like Hatsumi did indeed teach differently at one time and there is a consistent set of similarities in this differences ("harder" execution of techniques, direct ninjutsu being taught, more overt references to spiritual elements).

Not according to those that trained with him at the time. Ask one of the Japanese shihan sometime if you get the chance.If you get a good relationship with some of them, they will be glad to tell you about things like this.

A likely explination is that you saw what you thought you were supposed to see. I know I have done that. We all do it. We get a little bit of information that seems to confirm one tiny aspect of what we believe and somehow look at is as "proof" to the whole theory. Chi no kata does not translate into an "earth" feeling for techniques. I can point to some stuff from a certain school that is supposed to have a feeling of water and waves- but that does not mean that the everything else in the godai is there as well.

And a lot of the people that train in the Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan started off with Hayes' books. I have feilded questions as a translator from visiting students of the Bujinkan who were asking what type of element a certain stance was. I had to translate the rather blunt comments back about the matter as well. These students were teaching in their countries, so I think a lot of teachers in all the orginizations probably have the same baggage.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

While Hayes brought alot of people into the Bujinkan. He unfortunately also misinformed them through his writings. Fortunately, with so many people living and training in Japan, we now have a more accurate picture of Sokes Hatsumi 's Budo!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[ginshun]

Not according to those that trained with him at the time. Ask one of the Japanese shihan sometime if you get the chance.If you get a good relationship with some of them, they will be glad to tell you about things like this.

So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?

 

[eyebeams]

While Hayes brought alot of people into the Bujinkan. He unfortunately also misinformed them through his writings. Fortunately, with so many people living and training in Japan, we now have a more accurate picture of Sokes Hatsumi 's Budo!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Given that:

1) Hatsumi's traditions didn't even used to have the name they have now, and:

2) That we have film of early Bujinkan practice and accounts that look a lot different (and do look "harder" than they are now and include things like metsubishi)

. . . isn't it reasonable to think, perhaps, that Hatsumi's approach has changed?

 

[Bigshadow]

. . . isn't it reasonable to think, perhaps, that Hatsumi's approach has changed?

Possibly. However, I must ask you... Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Soke is regressing, somehow what he did 20 years ago is somehow BETTER than what he does today? It is my opinion that many, including Hayes, didn't know fully what Hatsumi Soke was teaching at THAT time. Those that stuck with him, figured it out, others didn't, some still don't. The movement speaks volumes and yes there is plenty of video floating around as evidence.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called progress! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

We'd probably be seeing more of ninjutsu and "harder" applications if Uncle H had higher thoughts of our taijutsu standards.

 

[eyebeams]

Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called progress! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

I'm talking about the general characteristics of the movement, not the severity of training. Whether it's better or worse is not really answerable.

 

[eyebeams]

Possibly. However, I must ask you... Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Soke is regressing, somehow what he did 20 years ago is somehow BETTER than what he does today? It is my opinion that many, including Hayes, didn't know fully what Hatsumi Soke was teaching at THAT time. Those that stuck with him, figured it out, others didn't, some still don't. The movement speaks volumes and yes there is plenty of video floating around as evidence.

Changes can have to do with all kinds of things that have nothing to do with a value judgment one way or another.

 

[Tengu6]

Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called progress! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

I agree with you Brian, there is plenty of hard training in the Bujinkan.

I have to say though, that having this same arguement over and over everytime a newbie pops up who thinks that have seen the light in To Shin Do is getting very boring.

I was with the Hayes organization for 4 years, both prior to and after To Shin Do was born. I saw how training was and then what it turned into, and I can tell you there is a reason that entire Dojo(s) including Senior members jumped ship and went running to the Bujinkan.

It should be noted that Noguchi and Nagato sensei have stated that training was much harder in the past, however this Soke (Hatsumi at his current level) scares them much more. This comment can be found in "Kokoro no Katachi" by Akira Hino. So dont think "Softer/Harder", think "Smarter/Scarier".

So harder doesnt mean better, just different.

Just my opinion,
markk bush
www.bujinmag.com

 

[Don Roley]

So are you confirming / claiming that training with Hatsumi today is virtually the same as the training was in the 70's?

If we are talking about technique and such, yes.

There will of course be differences in training between large groups of short term students and a small group of people who are well known to you. So the old training could be harsher because Hatsumi knew just how far he could push the envelope with everyone. In some classes that is still the case.

But nobody who trained with him at the time and talks about how the training was harsher say that things were dropped from training like the Godai that Hayes came up with.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree with you Brian, there is plenty of hard training in the Bujinkan.

I have to say though, that having this same arguement over and over everytime a newbie pops up who thinks that have seen the light in To Shin Do is getting very boring.

I was with the Hayes organization for 4 years, both prior to and after To Shin Do was born. I saw how training was and then what it turned into, and I can tell you there is a reason that entire Dojo(s) including Senior members jumped ship and went running to the Bujinkan.

It should be noted that Noguchi and Nagato sensei have stated that training was much harder in the past, however this Soke (Hatsumi at his current level) scares them much more. This comment can be found in "Kokoro no Katachi" by Akira Hino. So dont think "Softer/Harder", think "Smarter/Scarier".

So harder doesnt mean better, just different.

Just my opinion,
markk bush
www.bujinmag.com

I am with you on all accounts Markk! The continuing argument is getting rather tiresome.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If we are talking about technique and such, yes.

There will of course be differences in training between large groups of short term students and a small group of people who are well known to you. So the old training could be harsher because Hatsumi knew just how far he could push the envelope with everyone. In some classes that is still the case.

But nobody who trained with him at the time and talks about how the training was harsher say that things were dropped from training like the Godai that Hayes came up with.

Don, those are some excellent points!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com