Is the Art of MA lost

[terryl965]

Is the Art of MA lost and has it become a sport in the majority minds. I have been contiplating writing this post for over three months so here goes.

I have watched the ISKA on the dish network for over a year now and all I see is Gymnastics with alot of flair, I watch all the pay for views and for the most part you have two kinds of fighters the ground game and the stand up and punch game. In my opion the Art is being left out even in the amuture circuit all you see is point sparring, get hit stop award point continue or Olympic style TKD where all you see is cotrol touching for the most part. Most weapontry is tought for showmanship rather than for self defense.

The graceful Art and fluent movements of old is all but gone everybody that comes to my Dojaang does not understand why we teach the history of the Art, they are basicly looking for cardio Karate or Taboo (Billy Blanks stuff), the general public have been brained wash into thinking MA is about a game or a sporting event. The lack of respect people have for the Arts just makes me wonder where will it be in a Houndred years or so. I would love to see everyone opion about there point of views on these subjects.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[TigerWoman]

What the general public sees, is what they form their opinion from. Most probably didn't even see the Olympics at 2 am. Once in a while that ISKA match is on but that looks like all gymnastics. Demos at the fair look like mostly board breaking--so much magic or trickery unless they were to try it. My own relatives don't even understand what I do, they don't even talk about it or ask questions. Probably have an opinion that I'm violent or in a sport. :idunno: So unless we educate the public through video, the history, values, etc. they won't know. And then its really a personal experience each one finds in martial arts and that's hard to explain. Just got to do it. TW

 

[BaiKaiGuy]

With all due respect, part of it also has to do with styles.

I see that both of you do TKD. TKD has, whether we care to admit it or not, one of the most commercialized MAs out there. Think about it, it got an Olympic spot. It's been insanely popular for about 2 decades now, and last I read it is the most studied MA. With popularity comes a bit of commercialization.

Then there's the XMA. All gymnastics, minimal substance, and a nifty clothing and gear line to go along with it. Oh, and let's not forget the tv show on the Discovery channel. None of them can fight, IMO, and are poorly rounded MAers with no sense of history or tradition. And no, the UFC and Pride are certianly not helping, they're the opposite extreme, it's the WWE of MA. These are the folk who cannot appreciate forms in any shape or way, and think spending time on them is useless.

Sadly I don't know the answer. The last MAer I spoke to about the recent ISKA show enjoyed it and wasn't quite sure why I looked at him funny when he said so. The last tourney I went to was a Tang Soo Do one here in PA, and I almost jumped the judges for what they did to the friend I went to watch. What I do know is that the commercialization has created a MAculture which is not really interested in history or tradition as much as flashy forms or ground and pound.

 

[VSanhodo]

Sadly I have to agree with you, The vast majority of ppl studying what they refer to as MA is really BS. Like yourself I have been in the arts for nearly 40 years now. Just saying that makes me tingle. You and I have been training and studying longer than most of our students have been alive.
I agree Ive watched ISKA and watch ppl scream and yell, flip and tumble. The novie watches this and it becomes etched in their brains that this is REAL martial arts.
Clearly ppl train for diffrent reasons. I use to have a student who trained with me for roughly 10 years, He was a very successful businessman and told me form the start, He simply could not spar. He had too many employees depending on him for their incomes and he had to meet, great, wine and dine way too many ppl for him to show up with black eyes. He simply wanted to train. I have to say he was one of the finest students I ever had. He didnt mind getting rough and tumble when it was necessary he just didnt have any desire to put on the Bogu gear.
Im not a big fan of American freestyle nor am I am big fan of UFC, Pride, ISKA etc. Now am I saying these are bad? No, If thats what you want to do, by all means go for it.
I use to aks my students, Who won the MTV video award last year? Who won the VH-1 Video award, Who won a Grammy, A emmy etc. Most couldnt answer my questions. But when asked who was Bach, Bethoveen, Motzhart etc. Most at least knew or had heard of the names. I once brought my students to Ballet, They watched the Russian Ballet when they were visiting the USA, I also brought them to the same center and we watched the Shangia Dancers from Africia. They were amazing. Also got to see the Okinawan Female Dancers which I have on tape. I explained and showed how dance was the pre-cursor to Kata. My main point to this simply being that modern stuff is only popular for today. But the classics never die. It is up to practitioner like you and me to ensure the classics do not die.
I use to give seminars all the time and frankly got tired of goingt o studios where the black belts were no more knowlegable than the yellow belts, only faster. I only teach in private now, I dont charge for lessons and tell ppl up front if you want to learn flash then leave now, I fall oyu want to learn is slef defense and learn how to beat ppl up go buy a gun or a baseball bat. But if you want to learn the art, then by all means lets train.
Hang in there, Sadly the ART aspect is fading but it does not have to die. Let me know what WE can do together to help one another keep the ARTS alive, I am willing to work with you in this endeaver.

San

 

[terryl965]

Vsanhodo,that is my dilima I do not know where to start everybody that comes through my doors want flash, I stated out in Okinawa karate and than TKD like the previous post said I see you train TKD and lumps me in the commercial group without understanding the lenghth of time I have personally have put into my training. I may not be the best fighter anymore but I still love the Art for the Art not the commercial aspect or for the sport aspect, people tend to forget the old style of TKD they only know of the new and self impose Olympic TKD please most of these guys are old Karate guys that jump on the ban wagon for God sake. With TV and Gymnastics being the life blood of MA we have no hope of surviving in the world of plain and simple Martial Art weather it is Karate or Kung Fu or Judo or TKD or Hopkido or EPAK, the Art has to be preserved in some manner that the flash and gymnastic part goes by the waistside. If ever you like to talk send me a PM and I'll forward my number and I'll call you,
Thanks for your story
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Adept]

I think it's really easy to get caught up in hubris when discussing topics like this. I mean, what exactly is the "art" aspect of a martial art? How do we measure a good martial artist? What do people want out of the martial arts? These are questions we need to answer before we can start bemoaning the loss of the the art.

Sure, the flashy jumpy stuff in the XMA displays isn't very street practical. But neither are most kata or patterns, or most jumping/flying kicks (heck, even head kicks, really), or a lot of controlled sparring techniques. Perhaps all the XMA practitioners want is something flashy to show off to their friends. And if that's the case, who are we to criticise them for it? Perhaps people only want to learn functional self defense, and don't give a damn about the history of their 'style' or the language of it's parent country. And if so, who are we to criticise them? Maybe people only want to learn a specific curriculum from a single style, encompasing all the aspects of that style and without crosstraining at all. And if so, well, you get the picture.

 

[terryl965]

I think it's really easy to get caught up in hubris when discussing topics like this. I mean, what exactly is the "art" aspect of a martial art? How do we measure a good martial artist? What do people want out of the martial arts? These are questions we need to answer before we can start bemoaning the loss of the the art.

Sure, the flashy jumpy stuff in the XMA displays isn't very street practical. But neither are most kata or patterns, or most jumping/flying kicks (heck, even head kicks, really), or a lot of controlled sparring techniques. Perhaps all the XMA practitioners want is something flashy to show off to their friends. And if that's the case, who are we to criticise them for it? Perhaps people only want to learn functional self defense, and don't give a damn about the history of their 'style' or the language of it's parent country. And if so, who are we to criticise them? Maybe people only want to learn a specific curriculum from a single style, encompasing all the aspects of that style and without crosstraining at all. And if so, well, you get the picture.

Adept, I'm not critisizing want people want my question is do people really know what MA is anymore or do most believe the ISKA od XMA is real MA and if so how can we as a following of said Art preserve that Art for the masses to completely understand that Art is more than flash or a sport. Even all the so called extreme stuff is no more than boxing or wrestling or as one might say grappling and submissions, now I know these people train hard and are great athletes but are they great MA'ers and I know your going to say they probaly do not care about that aspect and that is a big part of why the Art is being loss to the general public.
Terry lee Stoker

 

[Andrew Green]

The thing about "real" martial arts is this:

No two people agree as to what "real" means.

XMA is martial arts, it might not be about self-defence, or fighting, or preserving tradition, but so what? It is martial arts. It has as much right to call itself "martial arts" as the most traditional of schools.

 

[Blindside]

Will everybody on this thread whos arts are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago raise their hand??? .....

I count two, if we are generous.

A "martial art" is a fluid concept, it lives and dies as times and attitudes and warfare changes. For every Mozart there are a thousand unknown and unremembered composers whose work disappeared after the first year of publication. Not every composers music is worth remembering, and not every martial art is some great emblem of the past. The great majority of us are hobbiests in the martial arts, whether we like to admit it or not. I don't have a career that I need to punch, kick, grapple, knife, club, or shoot my way out of a situation very often, yet I spend an unreasonable amount of time training for it.

The transition form "art" to sport has happened to virtually every martial art out there. Judo, fencing, kendo, well, heck, look at the Olympics, the historical core of those events there were "martial" themes (running, discus, javelin, wrestling). I can just see some ancient Greek watching todays marathons and saying "but they have clothes.... and shoes on! That isn't how we did it in my day, we were more pure."

Some countries designate "living treasures" as people who are master crafters/practitioners of ancient arts, pottery, calligraphy, bonsai, etc. Are we claiming to be an example of such?

As hobbiests we are naturally attached to whatever it is that we do, good for us. I'm sure stamp collecters will be railing against the time when email is the dominant form of written communication, or coin collectors when debit cards are the medium of choice for transactions. Things change people, deal with it.

Lamont

 

[rupton]

I think it's illogical to argue "lost art" when the majority of marital arts are neither martial, nor art. I'm going to use Japanese terminology in this reply but if you look at where most martial artists derive “art” it comes from jutsu or a set of techniques or skills. Contrast this with “do” which is more of a way that certainly incorporated jutsu, but attempted to add ethics or codes to it. I think this “way” is more of what you may be arguing here, rather than art. So does this mean that the newer techniques introduced are polluting the way? I don’t know. But from a jutsu perspective aren’t they simply more techniques added to the art? So to this point I would argue your point that the art is being left out. The “art” is very much intact by this definition . I truly agree with your point that most laypersons view the way as a sport or game and the general disrespect that is present. But I also think that we have done much to foster these ourselves from our own ignorance of what and why we study as well as not publicly setting the record straight. Understand I am saying this in general and not you specifically. I have the utmost respect for someone who has stuck to the way for over forty years (humbly bowing).

 

[Ubermint]

I am NOT defending point sparring/XMA. However:

You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie ********. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train.

 

[arnisador]

There's so much variation. Judo is meant to be a sport, as is Kendo; TKD is an Olympic sport. In each case you can also get more--some Judo schools teach atemi-waza, some Kendoka also do Kenjutsu, and many TKD schools also teach self-defense.

If you look mostly at TKD schools this seems like a more relevant question than if you spend most of your time with Iaidoka, Tai Chi practitioners, FMAers, and so on. There's so much variety out there!

 

[MJS]

Is the Art of MA lost and has it become a sport in the majority minds. I have been contiplating writing this post for over three months so here goes.

I have watched the ISKA on the dish network for over a year now and all I see is Gymnastics with alot of flair, I watch all the pay for views and for the most part you have two kinds of fighters the ground game and the stand up and punch game. In my opion the Art is being left out even in the amuture circuit all you see is point sparring, get hit stop award point continue or Olympic style TKD where all you see is cotrol touching for the most part. Most weapontry is tought for showmanship rather than for self defense.

The graceful Art and fluent movements of old is all but gone everybody that comes to my Dojaang does not understand why we teach the history of the Art, they are basicly looking for cardio Karate or Taboo (Billy Blanks stuff), the general public have been brained wash into thinking MA is about a game or a sporting event. The lack of respect people have for the Arts just makes me wonder where will it be in a Houndred years or so. I would love to see everyone opion about there point of views on these subjects.

Terry Lee Stoker

IMO, the flash does the arts more harm than good. People train for different reasons, but the majority of what they see is what you've mentioned above...Tae Bo, cartwheels, gymnastics, flash, etc....and they get a very distorted idea of what the arts are all about. People enroll for SD reasons, train in this flash, and really think that everything they're doing is going to help them. Very few people IMHO, would enroll their child or themselves for that matter, in a school where there is full contact, no protection fighting.

Fortunately, for those that want it, there are some arts out there that tend to focus more on the reality end of it than the flash/fantasy end.

Mike

 

[terryl965]

Will everybody on this thread whos arts are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago raise their hand??? .....

I count two, if we are generous.

A "martial art" is a fluid concept, it lives and dies as times and attitudes and warfare changes. For every Mozart there are a thousand unknown and unremembered composers whose work disappeared after the first year of publication. Not every composers music is worth remembering, and not every martial art is some great emblem of the past. The great majority of us are hobbiests in the martial arts, whether we like to admit it or not. I don't have a career that I need to punch, kick, grapple, knife, club, or shoot my way out of a situation very often, yet I spend an unreasonable amount of time training for it.

The transition form "art" to sport has happened to virtually every martial art out there. Judo, fencing, kendo, well, heck, look at the Olympics, the historical core of those events there were "martial" themes (running, discus, javelin, wrestling). I can just see some ancient Greek watching todays marathons and saying "but they have clothes.... and shoes on! That isn't how we did it in my day, we were more pure."

Some countries designate "living treasures" as people who are master crafters/practitioners of ancient arts, pottery, calligraphy, bonsai, etc. Are we claiming to be an example of such?

As hobbiests we are naturally attached to whatever it is that we do, good for us. I'm sure stamp collecters will be railing against the time when email is the dominant form of written communication, or coin collectors when debit cards are the medium of choice for transactions. Things change people, deal with it.

Lamont

Blindside I understand your point of view and I will not try to defend mine, I just would like tp see everybody views. Believe me when I sayover forty years I have seen alot of strang and wierd stuff in MA some good some bad, or atleast for me in the end it is about the way I was tought and I do relize that way deffers from 10,000 years ago has everything will evolve either for the good or the bad. I just see so much put on trophy's and how flashy one can be, even when we got back from USAT junior Olympics where we only got 3 medals this year I was ask are we loseing the edge and my response was who care's about medals and trophy's and I was told you have to for the public views you in that manner, for it is about winning all the time and not the journey so the sport is taking over like football, baseball,and hockey as wellas basketball, so be it for the masses will never understand the true enlightment one's get from hard physical and emotional training that comes from there style.
Terry Lee stoker

 

[VSanhodo]

Vsanhodo,that is my dilima I do not know where to start everybody that comes through my doors want flash, I stated out in Okinawa karate and than TKD like the previous post said I see you train TKD and lumps me in the commercial group without understanding the lenghth of time I have personally have put into my training. I may not be the best fighter anymore but I still love the Art for the Art not the commercial aspect or for the sport aspect, people tend to forget the old style of TKD they only know of the new and self impose Olympic TKD please most of these guys are old Karate guys that jump on the ban wagon for God sake. With TV and Gymnastics being the life blood of MA we have no hope of surviving in the world of plain and simple Martial Art weather it is Karate or Kung Fu or Judo or TKD or Hopkido or EPAK, the Art has to be preserved in some manner that the flash and gymnastic part goes by the waistside. If ever you like to talk send me a PM and I'll forward my number and I'll call you,
Thanks for your story
Terry Lee Stoker

I will PM you and thank for that offer. I think what I may be trying to say is, I remmeber what and how I was taught and see the garbage that is being taught today. 18month over night wonders. I went to a school a year or so to give a seminar and I swear they had I know 300 different techniques from white belt to black belt. I arrived a day early and went to simply watch a class. What I saw just dumbfounded me. These ppl were being shown technique after technique after technique, combination after combination after combination. From white belt up and not once for the 3 1/2 hours that I was there, for 3 seperate classes did I see any formalized training, No fundamentals were taught at all. When I tactfully asked why, the head instructor simply told me why teach stances, you dont fight in them anyway. He said the samething about kata training.
I hear of ppl training twice a week for an hour at a time and 18 months later poof they are a black belt. I trained 3 hours a night usually 4 times a week and more when I could for 7 years before I got my black belt. Truth be known I never wore a white belt, my first belt was a brown belt. Mr. Tanaka realized how important belts were to americans so he implemented his own belt system, White, Brown, Black.
The junk I see today is just that. I would say 98.9% of the ppl studying today have no concept of how to move properly, dont understand flow of motion, and really have no clue how to perform kata correctly.
Yep, Its sad, What you and I grew up with and grew to love seems to have fallen by the waside and is now substitued with flash, fast, fancy and profit.

I will PM you soon

By the way though I have had some training in TKD (CTA) my primary art is Classical JuJitsu and Okinawan Kempo

Thanks

San

 

[Andrew Green]

I am NOT defending point sparring/XMA. However:

It does work for XMA though.

The spiritual side comes from pushing yourself past your limits, "putting it on the line" and seeing what you're really made of.

This could come from finally landing a trick you've been working on for months, or a really tough match that leaves you barely able to stand, but yet you continue to fight

 

[still learning]

Hello,

The art is not lost. There are hundreds' of unknown schools that teaches the martial arts for what it is. The one's that get notice because of marketing/advertiseing to attract more students. Many join for the competitions and tropies. (marketing tool). Look around and you will find just as many who join to really learn self-defence.

Some teach because it is a business to make money, others' teach because they love to, both need money to survive! Marketing is important tool for attacting students. Just my thoughts................aloha

 

[dsp921]

This is a tough one, I train in the old school traditional ways and that's what I want. I try to do what I do and not concern myself with what others do. The only problem with that is if everyone starts to take a big interest in the "martial gymnastics" and go away from the traditional arts, how will the traditional arts continue? Will there be enough students that want old school training and not the flash? That's where my concern would be, not that people want the flash, but will it kill tradition.

 

[Sapper6]

i don't believe the art is "lost". the "Art" aspect is only what you make of it. it might as well be lost to others but does that mean it "has" to be gone, "overall"...? nope it sure doesn't.

i don't see the "Arts" in Pride, UFC, XMA, or any other organization with the sole purpose of commercialization and entertainment profit. my feelings on these things are very clear to me, and for the most part, are a totally different topic in itself.

if you are trying to gauge your theory on what you are seeing with Pride, UFC, and other "no holds barred" fighting events, you are being misled. IMHO, these are not martial arts exhibitions, contrary to what you might hear or believe, so don't allow yourself to think otherwise :asian:

 

[VSanhodo]

i don't believe the art is "lost". the "Art" aspect is only what you make of it. it might as well be lost to others but does that mean it "has" to be gone, "overall"...? nope it sure doesn't.

i don't see the "Arts" in Pride, UFC, XMA, or any other organization with the sole purpose of commercialization and entertainment profit. my feelings on these things are very clear to me, and for the most part, are a totally different topic in itself.

if you are trying to gauge your theory on what you are seeing with Pride, UFC, and other "no holds barred" fighting events, you are being misled. IMHO, these are not martial arts exhibitions, contrary to what you might hear or believe, so don't allow yourself to think otherwise :asian:

When I was coming up through the ranks I learned training only for fighting was training what was referred to as the dirty hand. True Martial Artist must give back to society, Give to the church, Help those who are less fortunate. Do something which is selfless not selfish.
GIVE BACK. I believe for me personally the longe rI have been blessed to have been on this earth the more I have come to realize just how fortunate I am. When things are bad, I know there are those out there much less fortunate. The better, cleaner I live my life the more spiritual I have become the better I understand the Arts and the better my techniuqe has become. I truly believe no matter how good you may be until you give back and expect no personal gain nor return. You will will never attain your true potential until you simply Give back.
Pride, UFC, ISKA are not even good entertainment as far as i am concerned. Would you sit outside and watch someone beat up another human being????????? Why watch it on TV then? I choose not too, I have seen them them but am no longer interested.
Thanks

San