Is 10 yrs. Too Much?
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
Yes, this is absolutely rediculous. Of course, if it were my daughter, I may have a different outlook. But this sort of thing was threatened on me back when I was 15 myself, with a 15 year old girl, back in the 70s. I think it was called "statutory rape". Although I was under age, the girl was as well, and as such she can not consent. I don't know if it is factual, I didn't want to find out, just scared the crap out of me, which could have been all the father was after, at the time. The real lesson learned was not to date a girl who's father is an attorney ... LOL ... I laugh now, but wsn't laughing then.
I am frankly amazed that this chap is in prison potentially for ten years for an act that someone else performed of their own volition.
Laws are meant to protect the innocent, first and foremost. In a cirumstance such as described it doesn't sound like there were many 'innocents' present.
Morally I may find this condemnable but it is perhaps a case where the law drafted to protect is instead being used to vilify where no forced harm has been committed. Note that I used the word 'forced' deliberately here as I do not think that the retrograde trend back to an Anglo-Saxon timetable for sexual mores is a good thing and that 'harm' can manifest in many forms.
Laws are meant to protect the innocent, first and foremost. In a cirumstance such as described it doesn't sound like there were many 'innocents' present.
Morally I may find this condemnable but it is perhaps a case where the law drafted to protect is instead being used to vilify where no forced harm has been committed. Note that I used the word 'forced' deliberately here as I do not think that the retrograde trend back to an Anglo-Saxon timetable for sexual mores is a good thing and that 'harm' can manifest in many forms.
If he was 17 and she was 15 then it's still statutory rape by the letter of the law no matter how consenting she was. Laws on the age of legal consensual sexual intercourse/acts vary from state to state. Ten years is too much in this case. She said yes not NO so there's a difference. She said yes without coercion and manipulation (well okay there's ALWAYS a little of THAT!), and she wasn't saying yes from fear or blackmail or bribery/prostitution. If it were that the case then it's molestation or rape and ten years is far too less of a sentence.
It's the case of a couple of horny teenagers who happened to seize the moment/opportunity. Yet the law still stands however it's written.
But yes, I think the sentence in THIS case is too much. 2 years with time off for good behavior... simply on the basis that they got caught because they were stupid enough to do it in front of a camera. You'd think they'd learn something from Tommy and Pamela Lee or even Paris Hilton that these kind of tapes are gonna get seen by EVERYBODY! (well... almost).
It's the case of a couple of horny teenagers who happened to seize the moment/opportunity. Yet the law still stands however it's written.
But yes, I think the sentence in THIS case is too much. 2 years with time off for good behavior... simply on the basis that they got caught because they were stupid enough to do it in front of a camera. You'd think they'd learn something from Tommy and Pamela Lee or even Paris Hilton that these kind of tapes are gonna get seen by EVERYBODY! (well... almost).
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Wouldn't she be guilty of the same crime as he was?
They were both underage and he should be protected just as much as she was.
I think the thing is a farce of the legal system and some kid got his life ruined by a law used in a purpose it wasn't intended for.
They were both underage and he should be protected just as much as she was.
I think the thing is a farce of the legal system and some kid got his life ruined by a law used in a purpose it wasn't intended for.
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
It's what is called a 'double standard' ... not good, but all too true.
IMHO the fact that he would have only had like probation or something a lot less if her and she had done "regular" sex instead or oral means to me that this sentense is way over the top!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Could you elaborate a little on a simple "Yes", Xue?
I can't speak for your locale but, sadly, the 'crime' that this poor lad has been jailed for a decade for is all too common-place around here.
Even when I was that age (a long time ago) sexual activity was quite high amongst the nominally underage - not as bad as now I think but the principle remains i.e. don't just pick one to punish and leave it at that. Teenage sex is going to happen if you don't have very strong parental oversight (and sometimes even if you do).
I can't speak for your locale but, sadly, the 'crime' that this poor lad has been jailed for a decade for is all too common-place around here.
Even when I was that age (a long time ago) sexual activity was quite high amongst the nominally underage - not as bad as now I think but the principle remains i.e. don't just pick one to punish and leave it at that. Teenage sex is going to happen if you don't have very strong parental oversight (and sometimes even if you do).
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Sorry no, not beyond let one get away with it and it will be used later as a defense by someone else who is much worse who sees the result of this case as an opportunity.
I do not know the laws of other states but in mine a minor cannot give consent for such things also culpable mental state is not an issue either.
No such thing as consensual sex with a minor.
My stance on things such as statutory rape are already on MT and I tend to get incredibly upset in these things and I am trying not to
I can see your point Xue and stand behind it. But as Sukerkin said, it's going to happen irregardless.
But think upon this... suppose if the girl were 17 (underaged) and the boy were 15... would that make a difference? Is it still consensual or not? Ok, with a minor but both are minors so who do you punish?
The girl should serve some time as well if they're going to go by the laws. Boys seem to get the worse end of the deal in cases like these. A friend I knew in school, got sent up for two years for "statutory rape" because the girl told her mom that she slept with him. Her mom called the cops and there ya go. Mummy was upset that her little girl didn't come home as early as she promised and stinking of beer and her bra was missing (it was found in the back of my friend's truck). Mind you both of them were 16 yrs of age.
Still HE went to jail and she didn't simply because her mom reported their tryst to the police. That's unfair if you ask me. What if his parents reported the "crime"? Would she go to jail? Probably not. But he would, most likely.
Irregardless, ten years is too long for this type of "crime". 2 years with time served and time off good behavior and maybe probation if they're so fired up to punish someone for something that likely they were doing and their own kids are doing at that age. I mean ask yourself how old were (any of) you when you first started experiencing (consensual) sex? Some of you waited til you were married or of age I'm sure and some of you (like me) didn't.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OK, my last post on the topic I hope. I can feel my blood pressure rising here already.
I have heard just about every single argument on the topic you can put forth and I still have the same view so please to any that follow don't try and come up with other examples, I have heard them all.
The law is, for better or worse the law, and in my state an older woman will go to jail for going to bed with a younger boy as well. And in my state that means the 17 year old girl goes to jail.
I have been in the ER when they brought rape cases in (fake, real and statutory), it aint pretty gentleman it is rather disturbing actually.
I cannot tell you how much it bothered me to have to be in the same ER with these things and the irate parents of BOTH sides of the issue as well and have to keep them from arguing fighting and just plain being stupid in what is an incredible emotional situation.
MEANWHILE the female is put through all sorts of VERY invasive, and from what I am told by the nurses, painful exams that are REQUIRED by law. And in one case the girl did tell the boy yes but the parents caught them in the act and call the cops. And after all the FIGHTING, YELLING and UTTER STUPIDITY I was expose to and in the middle of form the parents and seeing the girl after the exam and the HELL she just went through . NUFF said, Im done.
I am terribly sorry the kid went away for 10, likely he will not serve 10, I am sorry if he went to jail and it was because the girl said yes (if she actaully did), REGARDLESS she IS a minor, which means, LEGALLY, she cannot say yes to such things. And if you let this case go because of this and IT WILL come back to haunt you when some kid rapes a girl and intimidates the hell out of her with threats of violence and gets her to say she said yes and he gets a light sentence or NO sentence and goes off and does it again. And before ANYONE comes back and says OH that wont happen, BELIEVE ME it will. Just look at just about EVERY rape defense going.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
Well, seems like anything Sharpton is involved in, always gets heated up, but thats another story.
Knowing the laws of the state would be a help. I came across this for CT., where I live.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0376.htm
So, going on this, the younger person seems to be exempt. What if the younger person was the aggressor?
I also found this:
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm
I doubt that he will serve 10yrs. He will most likely get a lesser sentence, probation, etc.
Knowing the laws of the state would be a help. I came across this for CT., where I live.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0376.htm
So, going on this, the younger person seems to be exempt. What if the younger person was the aggressor?
I also found this:
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm
I doubt that he will serve 10yrs. He will most likely get a lesser sentence, probation, etc.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
What if they had peanuts in their top pocket and were drunk and driving a scooter the wrong way down an escalator on Sunday in a closed shopping mall while playing Dolly Parton CDs.
It doesn't matter a minor cannot give consent and if they are the aggressor why can't the OLDER person say no, have they no restraint or can they not defend themselves if necessary. And if the 15 year old is the aggressor, and in a violent RAPE committed by a minor that is generally the case... they go to jail.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,063
- Reaction score
- 82
Why is it that most people only become aware of these stories when Reverend Sharpton is involved.
This story is old. And many in the blogging community have been discussing it for months.
The sentence was voided almost a month ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case.ap/index.html
EDIT - On another note, I believe the young lady also serviced some other older young men at the party. Those young men, if I recall correctly, agreed to plea bargain arrangements and will now live the rest of their lives as sex offenders. One wonders at the fairness of that. - END EDIT
This story is old. And many in the blogging community have been discussing it for months.
The sentence was voided almost a month ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case.ap/index.html
EDIT - On another note, I believe the young lady also serviced some other older young men at the party. Those young men, if I recall correctly, agreed to plea bargain arrangements and will now live the rest of their lives as sex offenders. One wonders at the fairness of that. - END EDIT
OP
- Thread Starter
- #16
Well, I hope that you're not taking anything I said in the wrong way. I'm not a lawyer, a cop, nor do I know every law in the world.
That being said, a few others made the same inquiry as I. I'm not arguing the consent, I'm saying in this case the male is in jail. Where is the female? She too engaged in underage sexual activity so why isnt she being punished?
In this case, both people were minors, as both were under the age of 18. Unless the law is different there. This wasnt a rape, this was 2 kids, at a party, hooking up...plain and simple. People act as if this is breaking news. Well, maybe if they've lived in a closet for their entire life, but stuff like this happens all the time and I'll give you an example. I'm a dispatcher for a Police Dept. Just last night, a cop came across a car parked in one of the parks we have. 2 young people inside. Were they older than the 2 in this case? Yes, but the fact remains, sexual activity is not limited to any particular age.
Xue gets to the heart of it.
Statutory rape laws exist because, even though they may be physically capable, and perhaps mentally able to give consent, the kids really aren't ready for all the ramifications of their decision. They're too susceptible to too many pressures from too many directions; we've decided as a society through our elected legislatures that kids under a certain age, or people who lack sufficient mental capacity, are incapable of really consenting. In VA, the laws actually make exceptions in the case of subsequent marriage... but I know attorneys who feel that the most recent law the Commonwealth of Virginia looks to is the Magna Carta.
Some acts also remain criminal, even if done by consenting adults in reasonable privacy. (No, we don't often go looking, unless there's a problem or it's not being done in a reasonably private location. Public parks aren't private.)
However, in this case, I do think that there's been a miscarriage of justice. My understanding of the case is that Genarlow didn't initiate the activity, and, as I recall, news reports suggest that she shared her attentions with more than one guy at the party. They were relatively close in age; we're not talking a 30 year old and 15 year old. And it appears that he's been punished for not taking a plea deal. Others charged in the incident accepted some sort of plea bargain; he got 10 years.
Now, I'm not suggesting he deserved nothing. He was guilty. I do hold him, being 17, to a higher standard. After all, the only difference between someone 18 years and 1 day old and someone 17 years and 364 days is that the latter is able to be charged and treated as a juvenile still... There's not a whole lot of maturation that goes on overnight. I just don't think that this case warranted a mandatory sentence of 10 years.
And that's despite the involvement of Rev. Al Sharpton...
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Female 15 male 17 nuff said, age, at least in my state makes a big difference. Does not matter how you cut it explain it or what scenario you throw out and minor is a minor and a minor cannot give consent.
And I am fully aware this goes on a lot in the world, I'm old.. not an idiot.
In NY it is a felony which means greater than a year in prison. I no longer keep up on the NYS Laws, I happily do not have to, so I am not sure what the maximum is for this anymore.
Just a note in just about every rape case it is made to look like the female is at fault in court.
But as soon as Rev Al gets involved I generally believe the opposition.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #19
Well, I can see that this thread is getting a bit hot. I dont know what I said to upset you, but this seems like its a difficult topic for you, judging by previous posts.
What exactly is it, that you think I'm saying as there seems to be some misunderstanding going on??? Both parties are minors and I understand that. You seem to be harping on rape. This was not a rape.
I'm simply saying that I was curious as to why the female was not charged? If 2 minors can't give consent, why was he charged? Additionally, it seems that there was alcohol and drugs at this party. Kids like to experiment, so I doubt that many 17yo males would turn down a sexual favor if given the chance.
Maybe you're getting confused here. This was taken from the article Mike Edward linked:
Seems that there was 2 females. I'm not talking about the 17yo I'm talking about the 15 yo that he had oral sex with.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I am not angry at you, just not agreeing with you, nor is it likely that I will on this issue. And I have been in SOOOOO Many of these types of “conversations” I have had enough of them and it never ceases to amaze me the number of “What ifs” and excuses people come up with.
And in NY a sex act committed with a minor is Statutory Rape that is why I am using the terminology. Consent is not an issue because a minor cannot legally give consent for sex acts.
And no matter your opinion or feelings on a 17 year old excepting or turning down any offered sex act, in NY, it does not matter the 17 year old is, if caught, going to be arrested and charged with "statutory rape" Culpable mental state is not an issue the fact that the minor may have done a striptease in front of him and offered him all sorts of sex acts does not matter, he WILL end up being charged with statutory rape. And the female WILL be put through all sorts of painful, embarrassing and rather invasive tests. Nor does in matter if there were 2 , 3 or 12 females, if they were minors all that means is 2, 3 or 12 charges of statutory rape, hence the possible reason for 10 years.
By the way same goes for a 17 year old female that goes after a 15 year old male in NYS. And the age of the minor (younger) increases the number of years you are going to get in prison.
My point is always based on the laws of NYS and any amount of reasoning, excuses, outrage, scenarios, or What if situation that
you or anyone else comes up with are not justification for said statutory rape in NYS.
It kind of like this, "What if the titanic didn't hit the Iceberg?"
BUT IT DID!!!! so what's your point?
You, I or 50 million other people may not like what happened in the case stated but if that is the law that is the law and the kid should have taken the plea. And complaining to others or posting on a web page for all to see may make one feel like they are dong something but they aren’t. You don’t like it ok there are ways in the US to legally go about trying to change things.
Now here’s an idea if this bothers you or anyone else so much, write your congressman, if he/she gets enough letters maybe something will change, doubtful though, she/he wants to be re-elected and taking a stand that can later be used by ones opponent as showing he/she support sex with minors is not a good political move.
OK then mount a protest get a bunch of people together an get the necessary permits (you need them in NY or you will get arrested) and go protest at the state capital to get this kids sentence reduced (But might I suggest you do it without reverend Al if you want to be taken even remotely seriously). But then again you are back at someone somewhere will say this group and/or any of the state officials that agree think sex with minors is ok and all though it may catch the eye of a few local news stations it would be political suicide for the state officials.
