Stop Saddam's Execution??

[MA-Caver]

Saddam's death sentence exposes a rift
Opposition to execution builds in Europe, while U.S. is for it By Doreen Carvajal Published: December 28, 2006
PARIS: While Saddam Hussein faced death with a letter of farewell, the former Iraqi dictator's looming execution has exposed a deep divide between the United States and Europe, with opposition building in the Continent's major capitals.

Prime Minister Romano Prodi of Italy deplored the decision to execute Saddam, and Renato Martino, the cardinal who heads the Catholic Church's council for justice and peace, warned that "nobody can give death, not even the state." Opposition has also come from the governments of Britain, Denmark, France, Portugal, Spain and Germany.

But in most cases the criticism is qualified opposition directed at the morality of capital punishment rather than sympathy for Saddam or doubts about the fairness of his trial, an issue raised by groups like Human Rights Watch.

Saddam's chief lawyer on Thursday implored world leaders to prevent the United States from handing him over to the Iraqi authorities for execution, saying he should enjoy protection from his enemies as a "prisoner of war," The Associated Press reported from Baghdad.

"According to the international conventions, it is forbidden to hand a prisoner of war to his adversary," said the lawyer, Khalil al-Dulaimi.

Richard Dicker, director of the international justice program for Human Rights Watch, said he doubted that the opposition would create enough pressure to halt Saddam's sentence.

"I think that the imperative that has been driving the Iraqi leadership to execute Saddam is such that this train has left the station," said Dicker, who noted that the criticism of capital punishment was important "to take into account principled opposition to the death penalty regardless of the individual involved."

In Berlin, the German government rejected the death penalty, which is banned there and in the rest of the European Union. But Chancellor Angela Merkel's deputy spokesman, Thomas Steg, called a legal coming to terms with Iraq's past "necessary," saying that "there are no signs that both the trial and the appeal did not take place in accordance with the country's legal principles and rule of law."

In Italy, politicians from the center- right and left coalition found a rare issue for agreement and were almost unanimous in their opposition to the death sentence.

Marco Pannella, leader of Italy's Radical Party, offered Thursday to head to Baghdad to secure a pardon as he fasted on the third day of a hunger strike to protest the sentencing. A demonstration outside the Iraq Embassy in Rome is also being organized by the Green Party.

On Thursday, Prodi repeated his opposition to capital punishment after his year-end news conference, but denied a report that he intended to lead an international campaign against the sentence.
More of the article here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/28/news/death.php

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That this tyrant's sentence is being opposed by our allies (?) in Europe does'nt bode well for future relations IMO. Supposed Hitler had been caught alive before he killed himself (and Eva Braun) would they oppose his subsquent death penalty? Probably not, since he attacked the whole of Europe and everybody wanted a piece of him. But since Saddam killed only Kurds and his own people nobody seems to really care or think it's that big of a deal. What does that say about the attitudes of the Euros? That a man can be a tyrant and a mass murderer in his own country as long as he doesn't bother anybody else? Ridiculous!
What will this do to the internal strife that's going on right now in Iraq? Saddam is calling for everyone to get along; a sentenced/dying man's plea to try and make himself look good in his final days imo. More violence is expected to be sure, when someone pulls that lever and he does the final drop. But the Euros are against it. I'm guessing that if someone dug deep enough and in the right places they'll find that Saddam was indeed supportive of terrorist attacks in Europe a couple of decades ago... if that comes out how would the Euros feel then? They'd probably be all for it.
Stalin got away with his mass murder of perhaps over 6-10 million jews during his reign. Funny how nobody is calling that a holocaust. Will the deaths of the hundreds of thousands in Iraq and the man responsible be remembered? Probably, but only by Iraqis.
That it's against the geneva convention to "turn over a prisoner to his adversary's" is true and just I believe... but Saddam committed his crime(s) before the war(s) and basically he's being detained in U.S. custody as a means of protection until justice can be served and rightly so. He's being tried and judged by his own people ... not the international courts. The Iraqis who were anti-Saddam could have never achieved what we had done without help. Saddam was caught as a "prisoner of war" but technically the war is over... what are we supposed to do ... let him go?

 

[michaeledward]

There are many that oppose the death penalty as a matter of principle. I am one of them. I believe Hussein should not be executed. That is also the general attitude today of many Europeans.

Principles do not usually change based on who was the victim of the crime or criminal. To compare Hussein today, to Hitler of yesteryear just muddles the issue. It is, I believe, in large part the devastation wrought upon Europe during World War II that has delivered modern Europeans to the current anti-death-penalty stance.

But, we will allow Hussien to become a Martyr.

It is my guess, that in the fullness of history, the execution of Saddam Hussein will be seen as one of the many errors of President George W. Bush.

 

[ajs1976]

I don't think they are protesting his execution, but the idea of execution itself.

 

[MA-Caver]

But, we will allow Hussien to become a Martyr.

I can appreciate your stance on the issue and that's okay. But to say he'll become a Martyr is only in the eyes of those who adore him. A martyr is someone who dies for what they believe in, a cause.
Saddam believed in death, ethnic cleansing, tyranny and oppression. You would have this person to live? How would there be justice for one who abused the term justice in his own courts and executed hundreds (if not thousands) in his own prisons if he were to live out the rest of his days behind bars?
Still it is not US who are judging him but his own people. I support they have the right to determine the man's fate by according to their laws and their beliefs. I believe that if they wished for Saddam to languish behind bars for the rest of his life then we, the U.S. would also support that.

 

[CoryKS]

I don't think they are protesting his execution, and I don't think they are protesting the idea of execution. They are protesting the US, as they do in everything else. Your question mark after allies was appropriate.

By some accounts, Hussein is about twenty minutes from a short drop and a sudden stop.

 

[CoryKS]

I'd also like to point out that we have a new definition for the word 'chutzpah'. It's been defined as someone who kills his parents and then asks for leniency because he is an orphan. The fact that Hussein's lawyer is invoking the Geneva Convention to escape a sentence he earned by engaging in human rights violations is mindboggling.

 

[jdinca]

What I got from that is that the protest is over the death penalty in general and that it would be the same regardless of who it is.

I agree with Michael that it is not appropriate to compare Saddam to Hitler. I think comparing him to Caucescu (sp?) would be much more appropriate. He and his wife were summarily excecuted by an angry mob without any type of trial at all. If I remember correctly, there were few international cries of condemnation. Maybe it would have been better if it had been the Iraqi's who found him and killed him on the spot. It would have taken that big red herring known as the "evil Americans led by the War Criminal George Bush", out of the equation. It would have taken a lot less time, several attorneys and judges who were killed during the trial would still be alive and the Baathist portion of the insurgency could have been minimized, saving hundreds, if not thousands of lives. I guess that's the price of democracy given that he did go to trial instead.

This was an Iraqi court of law. He was tried by Iraqi's, defended by Iraqi's (except for the American on his defense team) and convicted by Iraqi's. Duly elected officials of the Iraqi government have signed off on the execution. Blaming the decision to execute him on Bush is skewing facts to meet a personal agenda. If anything, American influence probably prevented Saddam from being killed immediately and then drug through the streets of Baghdad behind a car while onlookers defiled the corpse, as we have seen done time and again.

 

[MA-Caver]

Maybe it would have been better if it had been the Iraqi's who found him and killed him on the spot.

Well if the guy did that... he wouldn't have gotten that big fat juicy reward for finding him alive now would he?

Blaming the decision to execute him on Bush is skewing facts to meet a personal agenda. If anything, American influence probably prevented Saddam from being killed immediately and then drug through the streets of Baghdad behind a car while onlookers defiled the corpse, as we have seen done time and again.

Well it would've made the people who suffered under his reign a bit happier. They were elated to be able to pull down his statues and deface his paintings so what does that tell ya?

 

[michaeledward]

I can appreciate your stance on the issue and that's okay. But to say he'll become a Martyr is only in the eyes of those who adore him. A martyr is someone who dies for what they believe in, a cause.
Saddam believed in death, ethnic cleansing, tyranny and oppression. You would have this person to live? How would there be justice for one who abused the term justice in his own courts and executed hundreds (if not thousands) in his own prisons if he were to live out the rest of his days behind bars?
Still it is not US who are judging him but his own people. I support they have the right to determine the man's fate by according to their laws and their beliefs. I believe that if they wished for Saddam to languish behind bars for the rest of his life then we, the U.S. would also support that.

If the cause he supports is 'Iraq', and the Iraq of which he was a leader, then those followers of his, those to whom he gave power, will certainly see him as a martyr. That group are known as the 'Sunni'. With Hussien's execution, many Sunni throughout the middle East will see the nation of Iraq having been handed to the Shi'ite, backed by Iran.

I think that those who view the loss of the Sunni power structure in Iraq as a bad thing, will see a United States military as the catalyst that placed the Shi'ite's in power, and is enabling the current 'Ethnic Cleansing' we are seeing in the streets of Baghdad. If the United States Military was not proping up the Maliki government, there would be no government in Iraq (as most of the Iraqi parliment is in Europe most of the time). You can bet your last nickle that many will see the United States and its military forces as the Judge, Jury and Execution of Saddam Hussein through the proxy al Maliki government.

You state with certainty what Hussien believes : Death, Ethnic Cleansing, Tyrrany and Oppression.

I will point to the irony that the current President of the United States oversaw quite a few capital punishments himself. Further he launched a war on a sovreign nation, comprised of a different ethnic make up, resulting in up to half a million or more deaths. And he dragged a little old lady away to jail when she protested him at campaign stops.

I don't think that George W. Bush "believes" in Death, Oppression and Ethnic Cleansing, but I think there are legitmate arguments that can be made to that effect. Therefore, I think it cautious that we withhold such statements from others.

 

[michaeledward]

Blaming the decision to execute him on Bush is skewing facts to meet a personal agenda.

That seems like a personal attack.

However, my thoughts on the matter are an analysis of how I believe some Iraq will see the execution. In case you haven't noticed, there are a bunch of people in Iraq that are pretty upset with the current status of the government. They think that al Maliki and al Jafri are hand picked U.S. puppets. There are some - some that go by the title 'Grand Ayatollah' - that think all of the elections held in Iraq have been fraudulent, and the government of Iraq is a puppet regime put in place by the United States.

It's hard to imagine how the situation in Iraq could get worse. But Hussein's execution is certainly not going to help. For some, it will be a blood lust fulfilling vengence. For others, it will be a call to arms.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls .. .. ..

 

[CoryKS]

Saddam swings tonight at 10pm ET

"Our respect for human rights requires us to execute him, and there will be no review or delay in carrying out the sentence," al-Maliki said.

 

[MA-Caver]

From the same article...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061229/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saddam
In his Friday sermon, a mosque preacher in the Shiite holy city of Najaf called Saddam's execution "God's gift to Iraqis."

"Oh, God, you know what Saddam has done! He killed millions of Iraqis in prisons, in wars with neighboring countries and he is responsible for mass graves," said Sheik Sadralddin al-Qubanji, a member of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in
Iraq, known as SCIRI, a dominant party in al-Maliki's coalition. "Oh God, we ask you to take revenge on Saddam."

 

[Mariachi Joe]

The people of Iraq should decide how to deal with Sadam. If they chose the death penalty I think the international community should respect that. I don't think Europe made any comments when Peru wanted to excecute Pinoche.

 

[Don Roley]

To compare Hussein today, to Hitler of yesteryear just muddles the issue.

You state with certainty what Hussien believes : Death, Ethnic Cleansing, Tyrrany and Oppression.

I will point to the irony that the current President of the United States oversaw quite a few capital punishments himself. Further he launched a war on a sovreign nation, comprised of a different ethnic make up, resulting in up to half a million or more deaths. And he dragged a little old lady away to jail when she protested him at campaign stops.

Your stance hardly seems consistent.

Bush did put convicted people to death after a trial. Hussein killed little children because someone from their village made him mad. A rather insane woman stalked him and broke laws and got dragged away. Hussein would take whoever he wanted and have them shot.

It seems hardly a case that Bush is as bad as Hussein. Your figures and facts are off quite a bit.

But I am amused by the way that some people are for us turning everything over to the Iraqi government and going home because it is their country and they should be allowed to do what they want. But now they are saying that we should not let them carry out the execution that they tried him on their own. CoryKS makes a good point about how the lawyer trying to invoke the Geneva convention is just silly since he seems to have no problem with Hussein using it as toilet paper. And the case is not about crimes done during war.

Am I the only guy that is going to host a beer when the news of this creeps death comes through? It may be petty and not in the spirit of remaining above petty emotions for a warrior. But after seeing some of the corpses of children being pulled from a mass grave, I can't think of anyone I want to see on an express ride to hell.

 

[bydand]

Am I the only guy that is going to host a beer when the news of this creeps death comes through? It may be petty and not in the spirit of remaining above petty emotions for a warrior. But after seeing some of the corpses of children being pulled from a mass grave, I can't think of anyone I want to see on an express ride to hell.

Nope, you will not be the only one. I'll hoist one up with you from this side of the globe! Petty or not, anybody that could do that to kids should go slow and painfully in my opinion, but, because I do not make that decision (thank you very much) it shall be as the proper authorities wish.

 

[Monadnock]

Kumpai!! Mr. Roley.

I'll be tippin one back with you in spirit.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Official: Saddam to be executed tonight

 

[jdinca]

Well if the guy did that... he wouldn't have gotten that big fat juicy reward for finding him alive now would he?

Well it would've made the people who suffered under his reign a bit happier. They were elated to be able to pull down his statues and deface his paintings so what does that tell ya?

I believe the reward would have been forthcoming were he brought in "slung over a saddle", also.

Exactly my point. Bringing Saddam to trial, even if there may have been flaws, was a drastic improvement over what he did to his own people and what his people would have done to him in return. Agree or disagree with why we're there in the first place, this aspect is an improvement.

 

[jdinca]

That seems like a personal attack.

However, my thoughts on the matter are an analysis of how I believe some Iraq will see the execution. In case you haven't noticed, there are a bunch of people in Iraq that are pretty upset with the current status of the government. They think that al Maliki and al Jafri are hand picked U.S. puppets. There are some - some that go by the title 'Grand Ayatollah' - that think all of the elections held in Iraq have been fraudulent, and the government of Iraq is a puppet regime put in place by the United States.

It's hard to imagine how the situation in Iraq could get worse. But Hussein's execution is certainly not going to help. For some, it will be a blood lust fulfilling vengence. For others, it will be a call to arms.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls .. .. ..

Last I checked, there were 8 million people who voted in the election. I'm awed by our ability to get that many people to vote our way. I don't recall Sistani calling the elections fraudulent. I'm sure that none of the factions in Iraq have their own agendas or want to skew the facts their own way. I mean, that would almost be human nature!

I'd be pretty po'ed with that government too. Especially if I'd been led to believe that democracy happens overnight. There was a violent struggle in this country for 15 years after our government was formed.

I think the way the verdict and execution in Iraq is viewed is going to be the same way we view such things in this country. The opinions are going to be determined by individual perspective, ideology and what "experts" one chooses to listen to. In other words, they are going to react like most humans would, it's just that those who disagree are much more emotionally charged and have lots of weapons to make their opinions heard. I applaud the Iraqi's for having the courage to follow through.

 

[michaeledward]

They were elated to be able to pull down his statues and deface his paintings so what does that tell ya?

You are aware that those 'elated' Iraqi's who pulled down the big statue were all part of Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress - flown in from England by the United States Military to be on display in that photo op - aren't you?


EDIT - Sorry, it wasn't the Iraqi National Congress ... it was the 'Free Iraqi Forces Militia'.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

END EDIT