Gays Lesbians Attack LDS L.A. Temple

[MA-Caver]

Please note it is not my intent to "start a fight" over this issue but to try and find a logical discussion from both sides. My own thoughts/feelings over this matter are probably biased because of my close friends/associations with members of the LDS church, but understand that I have equally close friends/associations with members of the gay communities as well.
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I found this shocking for several reasons when an LDS friend sent the URL's to me via AOL/IM I had to google quite a bit to find headlines based on this story to confirm it's accuracy.
It's shocking because it puts a hypocritical light on Gays and Lesbians and their desire to be equal when they mercilessly attack a religion which opposes Prop 8... they singled out the LDS church when they know that many other churches, including the Holy Roman Catholic Church (which has more members) are equally opposed to it.
Granted Gays and Lesbians have a right to be upset/angry that their rights to marry have been taken away from them. They would have a right to peacefully protest, but IMO they do NOT have the right to vandalize or attack members of a particular faith/church.

http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_10918202
Prop 8 backlash: Gay marriage backers to protest outside Salt Lake LDS Temple

By Jessica Ravitz
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 11/07/2008 06:13:08 AM MST

If Jacob Whipple gets what he's hoping for, at least 1,000 Utahns will turn out Friday night to protest the involvement of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in helping pass Proposition 8, a California ballot measure that effectively killed, at least for now, same-sex marriages in that state.
The call for people to gather at 6 p.m. at North Temple and State Street in Salt Lake City is to show solidarity with those protesting in California, Whipple explained.

Among those hitting the streets were about 3,000 who gathered Thursday afternoon outside the LDS Temple in Westwood, a neighborhood of Los Angeles, bearing signs including one featuring a photo of a gay couple with the words,"Why is this joy and love so scary," The Los Angeles Times reported. "We want to show we share their pain, and here, at the heart of the church, we want to stab it," said Whipple, of Salt Lake City.
The 29-year-old former LDS Church member, who served a mission in Argentina, was helping to get the word out late Thursday about the Utah protest. He said he and others were seeking support through e-mails, text messages, social networking Web pages and old-fashioned phone calls

This article written by a L.A. police officer who also happens to be LDS for an online magazine for LDS people... http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081110hate.html

During the Proposition 8 rally, as I stood with my wife and friends waving Yes On 8 signs and waving to the passing rush hour traffic, I learned several things. I learned supporters of both Yes On 8 and No On 8 liked to honk their horns. I learned the way to tell the difference is the No On 8 supporters usually accompanied their horn honking with an obscene gesture or a string of obscenities. They also liked to swerve their cars toward the children on the curb.

What was even more shocking was some of the officers were hateful enough to hope the activists would be successful in burning down the building

In the Bureau command post there was a large screen television displaying scenes from the protest outside the Los Angeles temple. Imagine my surprise, when angry protestors began rushing the closed temple gates, and I heard an officer in the command post say, “I hope they burn that place to the ground.”

​

Imagine my even stronger surprise when another officer replied, “They better hope they don't get through the gates, because the Mormons have an army in a bunker under the temple that will come out and kill them all.”
Really? My temple recommend must not be of a high enough clearance to get me into that part of the temple.

That last line was sarcasm at it's best... but I cannot believe that there was an officer who actually believed that the temple harbored an army waiting to defend to the death their temple... tell me that L.A. Police aren't that stupid to believe such utter tripe!

A You Tube video created in response to the protests against the LDS church.

http://www.ldsmag.com/youtube/081110appall.html

Catholics Appalled at anti-Mormon Slur ​

In this YouTube clip Michael Barber, professor at John Paul the Great Catholic University, says that the treatment received by the Latter-day Saints just before and after the passage of Prop 8 in California is “appalling” and stresses the fundamental importance of religious liberty.

Caution: may contain offensive religious messages


[yt]Uv72urCWJcU[/yt]

The video shows clips from a Gay created anti-Mormon propaganda ad that was amazingly aired on television in the L.A. area. For one thing I can attest that the video/ad is radically incorrect in many areas. For one thing male missionaries are not allowed to "visit" women or enter their homes while proselytizing they have female missionaries for that. Another that they would not illegally search someone's home and bully people around. They just DO NOT do that. The video is a lie and I'm not even LDS and even I know they wouldn't do that. It is probably why the attack on the temple site was conducted.
Question really is why if there is such a large population of Gays in the L.A. county area didn't they hold similar (if not simultaneous) protests in front of other churches/faiths? Why pick on the LDS in particular? Was it because of the propaganda video? Or were they being systematic planning on protesting in front of a Catholic church next and moving on to the Baptists and other churches later?
Either way, its shameful I think of the conduct chosen and I honestly don't see how it would help their cause acting this way.

Like I said they have the right to be angry/upset and have the right to protest and call for a new bill but acting savagely (driving their cars towards children for example... what if they lost control and actually hit one of the kids?) doesn't put favor in my eyes anyway.

From the other side of the fence...

http://insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/2008/11/prop-8-protesters-rally-outsid.html
Prop. 8 protesters rally outside Mormon temple in Westwood...[Update]

By Greg Hernandez on November 7, 2008 7:05 AM | Permalink | Comments (8) | ShareThis

The protests are still going strong and God bless every single person out there. There are several more marches planned for the weekend in LA, San Francisco and Long Beach. I'll provide an update later.
For now, here is an account from Advocate.com and LA's NBC4 of what happened yesterday at the extraordinary demonstration in Westwood. I was particularly struck by one sign I saw which read: "No More Mr. Nice Gay!"
NBC4 reports: Hundreds of supporters of same-sex marriage rallied outside a Mormon temple in West Los Angeles on Thursday afternoon to protest what organizers called hefty financial contributions by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the campaign supporting a measure that bans same-sex unions in California.
The rally began at 2 p.m. in front of the Los Angeles Mormon Temple then spilled onto Santa Monica Boulevard as sign-toting participants prepared to march to the nearby Federal Building in Westwood. A line of police surrounded the protest. Officers began shutting down freeway ramps along the 405 Freeway, possibly in response to the march. At about 4 p.m., officers closed Wilshire and Westwood boulevards. The march terminated near the intersection, jamming traffic in all directions.

This article is from the LA Times... very good point about racism amongst gays... and the real import of Prop 8.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story
No-on-8's white bias
The right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights.
By Jasmyne A. Cannick
November 8, 2008
I am a perfect example of why the fight against Proposition 8, which amends the state Constitution to ban same-sex marriage, failed to win black support.
I am black. I am a political activist who cares deeply about social justice issues. I am a lesbian. This year, I canvassed the streets of South Los Angeles and Compton, knocking on doors, talking politics to passers-by and working as I never had before to ensure a large voter turnout among African Americans. But even I wasn't inspired to encourage black people to vote against the proposition.
Why? Because I don't see why the right to marry should be a priority for me or other black people. Gay marriage? Please. At a time when blacks are still more likely than whites to be pulled over for no reason, more likely to be unemployed than whites, more likely to live at or below the poverty line, I was too busy trying to get black people registered to vote, period; I wasn't about to focus my attention on what couldn't help but feel like a secondary issue.
The first problem with Proposition 8 was the issue of marriage itself. The white gay community never successfully communicated to blacks why it should matter to us above everything else -- not just to me as a lesbian but to blacks generally. The way I see it, the white gay community is banging its head against the glass ceiling of a room called equality, believing that a breakthrough on marriage will bestow on it parity with heterosexuals. But the right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights. Does someone who is homeless or suffering from HIV but has no healthcare, or newly out of prison and unemployed, really benefit from the right to marry someone of the same sex?

Hypocrisy anyway you slice it.

 

[Big Don]

Some people sure hate any free speech but, their own...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

See here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69226

Short version: The LDS spent tens of millions of dollars in California, and sent in a large number of people from outside of California to push for Prop. 8. They didn't put a tenth of the effort into any of the other states who were also deciding the matter of same sex marriage. As a result, they are seen as the largest party in the anti-gay side, and are being targeted. The Catholic Church also put some effort in, however it seems theirs was less "Official" in intent, and the LDS is now at risk of losing its tax exempt status.

Free Speech doesn't mean you can say anything you want without reprisal.
Especially considering the Pro sides ads were full of lies and misinformation.

 

[Blindside]

With regard to the "army bunker" and the church. I'm not LDS, but in my time in Wyoming, I spent some time with some members of the church that were pretty serious about the protecting the church from its historical status as being a persecuted minority religion. Lets just say they were armed a bit better than most of the Buddhists that I have known.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Also, "Attack"?

Seriously, what were the casulties?

I mean I've only read of a handful of arrests, and nothing that I would classifiy as an "attack" (ie property damage, injuries, deaths, etc).

Though....considering the amount of information on the Prop. 8 supporters being posted around the web, they better hope the Anonymous hackers keep focusing on the Scientologists and don't join the battle...that fights already cost CoS millions.

 

[Ray]

and the LDS is now at risk of losing its tax exempt status.

Free Speech doesn't mean you can say anything you want without reprisal.

If the church should lose it's tax exempt status over this, then the legal decision that makes it so would be incorrect. A church may not support a candidate, but it may speak to issues. The members of the church as individuals and private citizens may support and campaign for a candidate; as well as campaign for/against initiatives.

It's easy to make the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the boogy man since it is usually only the stereotypical mis-information about the church that most people know.

The Church and its members have survived the murder of their brethren, the confiscation of their property and the churches property. they have survived being driven from every settlement in the US until they left the US and went to Utah. The church will survive will also survive this effort.

 

[Ray]

I mean I've only read of a handful of arrests, and nothing that I would classifiy as an "attack" (ie property damage, injuries, deaths, etc).

If a group of people want to change the result of a vote, there are legal means to do so; through a recall, or a court case.

Though....considering the amount of information on the Prop. 8 supporters being posted around the web, they better hope the Anonymous hackers keep focusing on the Scientologists and don't join the battle...that fights already cost CoS millions.

So, what are you saying, if the members of the church excercise their legal right to vote in defiance of a vocal and possibly violent group of people, then they risk being hacked as well as attacked? Doesn't sound much like a rule by law, more like a rule by vigilantism.

 

[Ray]

Seriously, what were the casulties?

I mean I've only read of a handful of arrests, and nothing that I would classifiy as an "attack" (ie property damage, injuries, deaths, etc).

According to the article written in the Meridian Magazine, homes and cars were vandalized...that is property damage...that is something you would classify as an "attack."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I didn't say I approved of such things.

Gay members of the Mormon Church and their families learned last week of a letter from Thomas S. Monson, our prophet, to all the "saints" of the church in California. He and his two counselors, known as The First Presidency, who live in Salt Lake City, Utah, have asked that the letter be read in all the pulpits in California today.

California members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, numbering many hundreds of thousands, through this letter are requested to devote their means and time to assure that marriage is legally defined as between a man and a woman. As the Lord's Prophet, Monson is asking all Mormons to support a gay marriage ban on the premise that heterosexual marriage is ordained by God and children are "entitled to be born within this bond of marriage."

http://www.religiousleft.us/2008/06/lds-church-on-wrong-side-of-gay.html
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/119629

I think that might have crossed the line. In the end, it will be up to the IRS however to examine everything, and decide the matter.

Of course, anyone who thinks that after spending tens of millions of dollars, putting out significant misinformation and causing fear, uncertainty and doubt, to ensure that a discriminatory measure is passed into law, and thinks that the next day it'll all be normal, is really really stupid.

Bottom line here is, it's none of their business, it doesn't hurt anyone it doesn't change what the religion allows, and it will go through sooner or later.

It'd be nice if this can go through without a few hundred people dying, which sadly looks to be the way it's going if things keep escalating.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

According to the article written in the Meridian Magazine, homes and cars were vandalized...that is property damage...that is something you would classify as an "attack."

If that's what's happening, I stand corrected.

 

[Ray]

If that's what's happening, I stand corrected.

What? You mean you didn't read the article that was referenced with a link in the thread-starter?

 

[Ray]

Bottom line here is, it's none of their business, it doesn't hurt anyone it doesn't change what the religion allows, and it will go through sooner or later.

Next time there's a ballot, tell the Mormons and the Catholics that there not allowed to vote. Maybe I should have refrained from casting my vote in the presidential election this year; after all, I am a Mormon. If it's on the ballot, then it is the business of the Mormon citizens of the state. And it is perfectly legal for a church to speak on the issues.

It'd be nice if this can go through without a few hundred people dying, which sadly looks to be the way it's going if things keep escalating.

Sounds like a threat to me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm looking for references from other sites before accepting one source. I haven't had time to check all of the links yet.

Simply put, the LDS and ALL churches should stay out of politics.
Then again, I fully support taxing them like any other business.

But I don't agree with violent outbursts from either side.

 

[Ray]

I'm looking for references from other sites before accepting one source. I haven't had time to check all of the links yet.

Simply put, the LDS and ALL churches should stay out of politics.
Then again, I fully support taxing them like any other business.

But I don't agree with violent outbursts from either side.

Check the refs, by all means. The citizens of the united states who happen to be Latter Day Saints happen to have a constitional right to vote. Catholics who are citizens have the right to vote, Jews have the right to vote, and so on. You cannot demand that people who have religious beliefs excuse themselves from voting; or maybe you're just suggesting they should have rights anyway, since they're obviously irrational by having irrational beliefs in the supernatural?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Next time there's a ballot, tell the Mormons and the Catholics that there not allowed to vote. Maybe I should have refrained from casting my vote in the presidential election this year; after all, I am a Mormon. If it's on the ballot, then it is the business of the Mormon citizens of the state. And it is perfectly legal for a church to speak on the issues.
Sounds like a threat to me.

Uh Ray, take a step back and relax k?

I'm stating a simple fact, not making any threats here.
The people who are now being treated like second class citizens, who are being denied the same happiness you get by default, are rather upset about it. I suspect a good number of Mormons were just as upset when poligamy was outlawed. Some folks still are pissed about that one. Some resorted to violence then, and some now will resort to violence again, on both sides of the matter.

I don't condone it, and wish all parties would settle it peacefully.

But looking back at various other rights issues, they tend to get violent, and people tend to die, before things get settled.

If you read my statement which was based on a knowledge of history as a threat, then there's nothing I can do about that.

But, if anyone is going to play the "my religion was discriminated against 100 years ago, so that makes this ok" game, people of my faith are still discriminated against across the US, and are regularly murdered around the world by so called Christians, Muslems, and Jews with little repercussion.

If I was in California, I'd be in one of those protests, standing up for my friends.
But I'm not, and neither are you, and the LDS is not based in California last I checked, and California law doesn't apply in Utah.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Check the refs, by all means. The citizens of the united states who happen to be Latter Day Saints happen to have a constitional right to vote. Catholics who are citizens have the right to vote, Jews have the right to vote, and so on. You cannot demand that people who have religious beliefs excuse themselves from voting; or maybe you're just suggesting they should have rights anyway, since they're obviously irrational by having irrational beliefs in the supernatural?

I'm saying that an organized action by any church is a violation of Federal Law, law that applies to the LDS, the Catholic Church, etc.

I like it when the head of a church goes to the extra effort to encourage his flock to travel to another state and promote their agenda. I think there's laws against that too.

But, let me know how much money the LDS spent on adverts and comercials in Florida and Arizona this year relating to the same-sex issues there. Were the people encouraged to also go to those states, and contribute money to those fights, or, was it as it seems, pretty much a targeted out-of-state waged attack on the California homosexual community?

At no point am I saying that anyone shouldn't vote. I'm saying that the Church (any church) has no place in politics in this country.

 

[Ray]

LDS is not based in California last I checked, and California law doesn't apply in Utah.

There are 750,000 or so members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in California. Or so I've read. Those of legal age have a right to vote. Just admit that they do and get over it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

When did I say they didn't have a right to vote?

While you're at it, answer the other questions please.

 

[Ray]

When did I say they didn't have a right to vote?

While you're at it, answer the other questions please.

Look up the answers yourself. And be specific whether you are reporting the Church's official activities and expenditures versus the individual member's expenditures and activities.

And as you already know, churches have a right to speak on issues.

 

[TimoS]

There are 750,000 or so members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in California. Or so I've read. Those of legal age have a right to vote. Just admit that they do and get over it.

If I've understood things correctly, you seem to be missing the point. At no point is Bob saying that members of the church cannot vote. What he is saying that the church shouldn't be allowed to tell people how to vote. To me there's a world of difference there: do the people decide themselves or is someone telling them how to vote.