Compare stick fight with open hand fight

Kung Fu Wang

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When you fight with a stick, you can

1. poke with the end - similar to jab/cross (or front kick).
2. horizontal outside in swing - similar to hook (or roundhouse kick, inside crescent kick).
3. horizontal inside out swing - similar to back fist (or hook kick, outside crescent kick).
4. vertically downward swing - similar to overhand, or hammer fist (or axe kick).
5. vertical upward swing - similar to uppercut (or chin kick).

This is pretty much just common sense. So, if a MA system doesn't have all of these (such as missing the roundhouse kick, or inside crescent kick), what do you think the reason should be?
 

gyoja

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When you fight with a stick, you can

1. poke with the end - similar to jab/cross (or front kick).
2. horizontal outside in swing - similar to hook (or roundhouse kick, inside crescent kick).
3. horizontal inside out swing - similar to back fist (or hook kick, outside crescent kick).
4. vertically downward swing - similar to overhand, or hammer fist (or axe kick).
5. vertical upward swing - similar to uppercut (or chin kick).

This is pretty much just common sense. So, if a MA system doesn't have all of these (such as missing the roundhouse kick, or inside crescent kick), what do you think the reason should be?
The system was developed before the introduction of that technique and hasnt evolved to include it?
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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The system was developed before the introduction of that technique and hasnt evolved to include it?
Do you think

- techniques creates system, or
- system create techniques.

If you know how to move your arm left and right, up and down, do you learn that from MA system, or do you learn that from common sense? Can MA system learn from common sense?

For example, when both you and your opponent have right side forward, when your opponent switches sides, your back left leg swing automatically toward his chest/belly (roundhouse kick). Do you have to learn that from MA system, or can you just learn that from common sense? In other words, if you spar long enough, you will figure out how to use roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick doesn't exist in your MA system.
 

gyoja

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Do you think

- techniques creates system, or
- system create techniques.

If you know how to move your arm left and right, up and down, do you learn that from MA system, or do you learn that from common sense? Can MA system learn from common sense?

For example, when both you and your opponent have right side forward, when your opponent switches sides, your back left leg swing automatically toward his chest/belly (roundhouse kick). Do you have to learn that from MA system, or can you just learn that from common sense? In other words, if you spar long enough, you will figure out how to use roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick doesn't exist in your MA system.
Maybe, but some systems stick strictly to tradition.
 

isshinryuronin

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Do you think

- techniques creates system, or
- system create techniques.
Interesting question. My answer is both. I think historically, the master accumulated techniques learned from his various teachers that he thought were useful and fit into his general vision of self-defense. From these techniques was created a system. Once the system was formed new techniques could be added that conformed and harmonized to the system's template. So, in this sense, the system created, or at least, selectively permitted techniques to be added.
 

Holmejr

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My thought is that its predominantly a system issue. The body can only move in so many ways and to purposely not use a natural movement, IMO would be due to a systems philosophy. I was once in a conversation with an high level Aikido practitioner and asked him about his punching or striking. He said he really knew nothing of punching. At that time, I
simply figured that it was a philosophical thing. I know more now.
When I was in TKD, during sparring I would fall back on my FMA when pressured. The instructor would get pissed saying stop using that Kung fu sh!t. Haha.
Boxers dont learn throw techniques because its not part of the system/sport. TKD doesnt do western boxing because its not part of the system/sport. Most TMA simply follow their system format or philosophy.
 

wab25

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This is pretty much just common sense. So, if a MA system doesn't have all of these (such as missing the roundhouse kick, or inside crescent kick), what do you think the reason should be?
This is only a problem if you interpret kata / forms to be the dictionary of moves that are available to a particular art. Therefore, if you can not find inside crescent kick in a form or kata, then inside crescent kick is not part of the art.... Does this apply to combinations then as well? If there is no kata / form with punch, punch, punch, round house kick.... can a practitioner of that art not use that combo?

I do not believe that this is the way the kata / forms were meant to be interpreted. The kata / form is there to teach you the art, that is the principles, strategies and tactics. The techniques included in the forms are included because they discuss or talk about those principles and ideas. The martial art can be represented by the moon in the sky, the kata / form can be represented by the masters finger pointing to the moon. Our problem is that we focus so hard on the finger doing the pointing, that we never get to see the moon.

Once you understand your martial art, those principles, strategies and tactics... you can then use any techniques you choose when doing your art.
 

drop bear

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Mma has this issue. In that the things that make you good at striking. Hands up high stance. Make you crap at grappling. Hands low, squat stance.

So it just becomes a case of switching between them for the best advantage at the time.

So if you had a weapon/unarmed system. It is not really a case of compromising to try to fit. But using the weaknesses of both strategies to your advantage.

And why I like the wrestling style approach to weapon work.
 

Hellabyss

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mmm this is very interesting, the system lvl is compared to the lvl of the creator (not always), if in first instance you have a system of much more higher lvl than a normal person could withstand, how do you think you can teach it to someone, I will put it with a more profound step, similar to the thoughts of the Zen, if you have something that everyone can see but everyone cant understand, you need to start training them with something logical for them, it is the only way for someone to cross the wall and understand, this is the first level of martial arts after all, techniques are part of the system and form the system, but you can find a technique being the system, contradictions in martial arts turn to be both trues, they are one, like the water can cut the rocks, the rock can too split the water, or the wind will never move a mountain, etc, everyone understand that the basic movements are there but do you truly know this basic movements, no when you begin you dont know, and there are more basic movements of what you think, only doing these movements you can know. and your proficiency improves, in resumen the one who have the stick matters, not the system, you can erase or modify a system how you want and call it your way of the system.
 

Taiji Rebel

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Do you think

- techniques creates system, or
- system create techniques.

If you know how to move your arm left and right, up and down, do you learn that from MA system, or do you learn that from common sense? Can MA system learn from common sense?

For example, when both you and your opponent have right side forward, when your opponent switches sides, your back left leg swing automatically toward his chest/belly (roundhouse kick). Do you have to learn that from MA system, or can you just learn that from common sense? In other words, if you spar long enough, you will figure out how to use roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick doesn't exist in your MA system.
Circumstances create both techniques and systems. A martial art is created to deal with the unique demands of the environment. UFC and MMA evolved from various arts coming together. Boxing techniques have changed to suit the demands of the modern ring and sports science. Traditional martial arts could be seen as trapped in a time capsule. More than one friend has likened them to reenactment associations. Self-defence situations require different techniques to Karate competitions. Martial arts systems evolve over time and systems are usually a result of one aiming to teach their martial art to the masses.
 

wab25

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If you create a new form, will you include your most favor "techniques" in it? I know I would.
So, COVID gave me the opportunity to "create kata." Danzan Ryu Jujitsu is a grappling art, similar to Judo, Sambo or BJJ. During COVID, when we started opening back up, we could meet to train, however, no contact was allowed and we had to stay 10 feet apart. So, how do we train a grappling art this way? We did a lot of work on rolls and falls. But, this gave me a reason to create new ways to train. I was able to create a training drill, that could be done solo and it has helped us get better at Danzan Ryu.

In order to put this drill together, I looked at what gave my students the most trouble. I was able to identify some common footwork issues that my students were having across multiple techniques. As it turns out, many students have these same issues... Not just my students. So, I put together a drill where we did the two pieces of footwork in combination.... one first and then the other. Then I exaggerated the footsteps, making the steps much longer than they normally would be.... this has the effect of getting people to bend their knees to get low while staying on balance. I then added some generic hand work to go with the footwork. I say "generic handwork" because the handwork can be used for a wrist lock, a weapon take away or a throw, depending on the "situation" you create in your mind. This drill also allowed us to look at the movement in a reactive sense (the other guy attacks and we respond) as well as an initial movement (we are initiating the attack). This of course lead to discussions on when you would want to react verses start.

The drill has worked well and we still do it, to work on some of the things it exaggerates. No, it did not contain my favorite techniques. It does contain techniques that help us improve certain basic fundamentals and gives us a text to use when discussing some higher level stuff. It was not meant to define the art.... it was meant to help us understand the art....
 

frank raud

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When you fight with a stick, you can

1. poke with the end - similar to jab/cross (or front kick).
2. horizontal outside in swing - similar to hook (or roundhouse kick, inside crescent kick).
3. horizontal inside out swing - similar to back fist (or hook kick, outside crescent kick).
4. vertically downward swing - similar to overhand, or hammer fist (or axe kick).
5. vertical upward swing - similar to uppercut (or chin kick).

This is pretty much just common sense. So, if a MA system doesn't have all of these (such as missing the roundhouse kick, or inside crescent kick), what do you think the reason should be?
It could be a grappling based system like Judo?
 

Bill Mattocks

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Do you think

- techniques creates system, or
- system create techniques.

If you know how to move your arm left and right, up and down, do you learn that from MA system, or do you learn that from common sense? Can MA system learn from common sense?

For example, when both you and your opponent have right side forward, when your opponent switches sides, your back left leg swing automatically toward his chest/belly (roundhouse kick). Do you have to learn that from MA system, or can you just learn that from common sense? In other words, if you spar long enough, you will figure out how to use roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick doesn't exist in your MA system.
I think two things.

1) weapons training is highly useful in empty-hand training, as you pointed out.
2) you have an agenda, and it's an old one that you trot out from time to time. You think many MA systems are lacking and need to be changed. I think you're doing something we used to refer to as urinating against the wind for distance. Give it up.

I'm sure many MA systems are lacking in one respect or another. That doesn't mean they need to be changed. Even if it gives you heartburn.
 

Holmejr

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Sticks move faster than hands and feet.
Most hands will hurt you. A stick can kill you relatively easy.

Fighting with sticks, see Dog Brothers.

Most stick fighting allows hands and feet, locks, throws and disarms. The live hand is either clearing, hitting or trapping. Once disarmed, you better know empty hands. Weapon vs open hand stuff. Run faster.

When someone is going to hit you with a stick, whether you have a stick or open hand, you cant just stand there. Youre either way out, angling off or moving inside into zero pressure. This is where inside boxing, elbows, knees and combat judo play well.

Stick fighting for the average class really cant be done without heavy padding. Dog Bros a whole different world. But padding is unrealistic, as the first good shot is usually a fight ender. Even with the foam padded sticks, it packs a wallop. With padding ya just keep going.

Interestingly, the average FMA stick weighs around 10 ounces. So from the very beginning, you are punching and swinging with weight. This is why FMA folk tend to have very fast hands. Combine that with good body mechanics and you culture heavy hands.
 
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HighKick

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When you fight with a stick, you can

1. poke with the end - similar to jab/cross (or front kick).
2. horizontal outside in swing - similar to hook (or roundhouse kick, inside crescent kick).
3. horizontal inside out swing - similar to back fist (or hook kick, outside crescent kick).
4. vertically downward swing - similar to overhand, or hammer fist (or axe kick).
5. vertical upward swing - similar to uppercut (or chin kick).

This is pretty much just common sense. So, if a MA system doesn't have all of these (such as missing the roundhouse kick, or inside crescent kick), what do you think the reason should be?
I feel the current and realistic answer is evolution of the style. Be that from competition influence or outside influences such as the prevalence of MMA, etc...
 

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