Indo-European Heroes and their Sons

Steel Tiger

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This might seem a little strange, but I think it is kinda interesting too.

I was doing some research into the relationship between the Hittites and the Trojan War when I came across an ancient text called the Telegony written in the 6th or 7th century BC. It tells a version of the journey of Odysseus. In this version though he has a son by Circe (with whom he lived with for a year) who shows up in Ithaca later on. The two of them get into a fight, not knowing each other and the son, Telegonus, kills Odysseus. He then marries Penelope while Telemachus, his half-brother, marries Circe (gets a little too Greek toward the end there).

Very interesting, but I found it strongly parallels a story from the life of the Irish hero Cuchullain in which he kills a son he has by a mysterious sorceress, in this case Scathach. This got me thinking.

Enter the Persian hero Rostam and his son Sohrab. Can you guess what happens? That's right the two of them don't recognise each other, fight, and the son is killed. Rostam has other qualities which are similar to Heracles, but that a whole other thing.

There is something very old going on here which I find very interesting. Oedipus Rex might well be another version of this old story. Interestingly among the Greeks the son seems to be the victor while in other places it is the father who wins. I am going to try to find an Indo-Aryan figure who might fit this pattern.

I guess Freud would say it speaks of some very deep-seated anxieties in the Indo-European peoples. There is clearly something important in the story for it to keep surviving.

Just a little curiosity that I came across that I thought might interest someone.
 

Touch Of Death

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This might seem a little strange, but I think it is kinda interesting too.

I was doing some research into the relationship between the Hittites and the Trojan War when I came across an ancient text called the Telegony written in the 6th or 7th century BC. It tells a version of the journey of Odysseus. In this version though he has a son by Circe (with whom he lived with for a year) who shows up in Ithaca later on. The two of them get into a fight, not knowing each other and the son, Telegonus, kills Odysseus. He then marries Penelope while Telemachus, his half-brother, marries Circe (gets a little too Greek toward the end there).

Very interesting, but I found it strongly parallels a story from the life of the Irish hero Cuchullain in which he kills a son he has by a mysterious sorceress, in this case Scathach. This got me thinking.

Enter the Persian hero Rostam and his son Sohrab. Can you guess what happens? That's right the two of them don't recognise each other, fight, and the son is killed. Rostam has other qualities which are similar to Heracles, but that a whole other thing.

There is something very old going on here which I find very interesting. Oedipus Rex might well be another version of this old story. Interestingly among the Greeks the son seems to be the victor while in other places it is the father who wins. I am going to try to find an Indo-Aryan figure who might fit this pattern.

I guess Freud would say it speaks of some very deep-seated anxieties in the Indo-European peoples. There is clearly something important in the story for it to keep surviving.

Just a little curiosity that I came across that I thought might interest someone.
Yes they are all variations of eachother.
Sean
 

Sukerkin

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If we ever uncover why it is that all these myths and legends tie to each other so intimately in terms of detail I think we shall uncover a great deal about our past.
 

kaizasosei

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nuthin wrong with a little psychoanalysis!
sounds interesting. please keep posting your findings.

j
 

redfang

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might not have a psychological root, as much as a similar actual source. These myths might stem from older, common sources. Keep in mind that there was a lot of trade and travel amidst ancient peoples. And the Indo-Aryan peoples periodically invaded and intermingled with peoples far east of their native lands.
 

exile

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might not have a psychological root, as much as a similar actual source. These myths might stem from older, common sources. Keep in mind that there was a lot of trade and travel amidst ancient peoples. And the Indo-Aryan peoples periodically invaded and intermingled with peoples far east of their native lands.

This was my thought too. The IE comparativist Georges Dumazil was a proponent of the idea that all the Indo-european pantheons, and many of the heroic episodes in them, can be reconstructed back to a single Ür-narrative—complex of narratives—which have gotten obscured by local variations; remember that thread we were involved in quite a while back, ST, about the anomaly represented by Odin in terms of the Scandinavian pantheon? A lot of other elements line up with Greek/Roman and Sankrit mythology, but Odin is a completely intrusive character, maybe element from the pre-IE cultures that the invading Nordic branch of the IE juggernaut picked because... well, for whatever reason. I think you, or one of the other people talking about it, suggested that as a kind of shamanistic intimate of the dead, Odin represented a source of power and connection to the afterlife that the pre-Vikings found very appealing, if that's the right word... so I think redfang's idea is probably in line with what Dumazil would have proposed... there's probably a lot of variant texts out there that we haven't yet discovered, that would reinforce this possibility. But the idea that these were all originally one story comports well with other parellelisms in IE mythology, and it's kind of what you'd expect, if, as is the case, these were all originally one people speaking a single language...
 

Touch Of Death

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This was my thought too. The IE comparativist Georges Dumazil was a proponent of the idea that all the Indo-european pantheons, and many of the heroic episodes in them, can be reconstructed back to a single Ür-narrative—complex of narratives—which have gotten obscured by local variations; remember that thread we were involved in quite a while back, ST, about the anomaly represented by Odin in terms of the Scandinavian pantheon? A lot of other elements line up with Greek/Roman and Sankrit mythology, but Odin is a completely intrusive character, maybe element from the pre-IE cultures that the invading Nordic branch of the IE juggernaut picked because... well, for whatever reason. I think you, or one of the other people talking about it, suggested that as a kind of shamanistic intimate of the dead, Odin represented a source of power and connection to the afterlife that the pre-Vikings found very appealing, if that's the right word... so I think redfang's idea is probably in line with what Dumazil would have proposed... there's probably a lot of variant texts out there that we haven't yet discovered, that would reinforce this possibility. But the idea that these were all originally one story comports well with other parellelisms in IE mythology, and it's kind of what you'd expect, if, as is the case, these were all originally one people speaking a single language...
You have to remember, it is only recently that the global population has numbered in the billions; so, its not far fetched to think that we have a common culture to vary from.
Sean
 
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Steel Tiger

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This was my thought too. The IE comparativist Georges Dumazil was a proponent of the idea that all the Indo-european pantheons, and many of the heroic episodes in them, can be reconstructed back to a single Ür-narrative—complex of narratives—which have gotten obscured by local variations; remember that thread we were involved in quite a while back, ST, about the anomaly represented by Odin in terms of the Scandinavian pantheon? A lot of other elements line up with Greek/Roman and Sankrit mythology, but Odin is a completely intrusive character, maybe element from the pre-IE cultures that the invading Nordic branch of the IE juggernaut picked because... well, for whatever reason. I think you, or one of the other people talking about it, suggested that as a kind of shamanistic intimate of the dead, Odin represented a source of power and connection to the afterlife that the pre-Vikings found very appealing, if that's the right word... so I think redfang's idea is probably in line with what Dumazil would have proposed... there's probably a lot of variant texts out there that we haven't yet discovered, that would reinforce this possibility. But the idea that these were all originally one story comports well with other parellelisms in IE mythology, and it's kind of what you'd expect, if, as is the case, these were all originally one people speaking a single language...

Firstly, I think that a couple more examples of this story are the conflict between Arjuna and Karna from the Mahabharata. They are brothers who don't know about their relationship until just before their fatal combat. And there is Gilgamesh and Enkidu (though this one isn't I-E). They are variations but involve conflict between two people with a close relationship usually resulting from not knowing or recognising each other.

I have to say that I approach I-E mythology from a position similar to that of Dumazil. There is, was, somewhere in the past a complex of stories that are intimately linked to the Indo-Europeans and Indo-Aryans that has travelled with them. It has to be remembered in all this that this cultural complex has moved far from its supposed origins around the Caucasus Mountains. Given this origin point, the myth cycles of the Hittites and Greeks should provide the earliest versions of the stories, though those of the Celts might very well be just as old.

Having said that, it is obvious that the Greek myths contain many elements that are obviously not part of the original I-E set. All the underworld gods, except maybe Hades, are very different. This is also the case for the Norse and possibly the Vedic myths. The Celtic myths may actually contain more of this 'older' cultural set than any of the others.

How does this affect the particular storyline I have isolated? Well, if Gilgamesh and Enkidu are actually a version (possibly the original) of this story then it means the story is a borrowing. A borrowing from before the proto-I-E migrations east and west, which would fit well with it being of Mesopotamian origin. And powerful enough to have remained in the consciousness of these far travellers.

So there would appear to be something about this story that was important to the early I-E and I-A people for them to keep it alive. If, as Sukerkin has suggested, we can work out what that might be we might have a very valuable insight into our past.
 

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