In your opinion, is belt reciprocity a good or bad thing?

[skribs]

When I say "belt reciprocity", I'm mainly looking at the forced reciprocity between KKW schools. If I join another KKW school, I join as a 3rd Dan, because KKW says I'm a 3rd Dan. Opinions on discretionary reciprocity are also welcome, but secondarily to the primary question of forced reciprocity.

Personally, I like these policies because it gives me peace-of-mind when selecting a new school that I will be accepted at the rank I feel I have earned. This is important to me, because I have goals that require me to be a specific rank to achieve, and being able to "pick up where I left off" is important for meeting those goals in a preferred timeline.

However, I've seen the negative effects as well. We had one student who clearly got her black belt from a McDojo. She was metaphorically drowning in the black belt class. Her skill level would have been perfect for the purple belt class. My personal opinion is that both she and the school would have been better off putting her in the lower class. Then she would have been taught the appropriate techniques for her stage of martial development, and the school wouldn't have someone badly representing us as a black belt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If the org has standards and enforces them, then reciprocity makes sense.
The KKW has standards, but there is no real enforcement, which makes it silly.

Personally, I don't much care what people wear. I'll teach them what our curriculum says they need to learn regardless.

What I've found, in actual practice, is that those who want to retain their belts but don't perform to our standard either leave, or decide to swap to a more appropriate belt.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think it's a really good thing within an organization. If everyone in the organization learns forms a, b, and c for x rank, it shouldn't really matter who taught them, just that they've learned those forms. And lets say you're at 4th rank (I'm guessing based on your posts the rank required to open a kukkiwon dojo). It wouldn't make any sense to be able to open a dojo, but then go to another dojo and have them doubt your rank/make you start somewhere else.

That said, as dirty dog mentioned, enforcement is needed. If you're supposed to be able to perform form A at an 8/10 quality, and a school gives you a pass at a 5/10 quality, that can cause issues. Even more issues if they decide to teach form 1, 2 and 3 rather than a, b and c-but that's something that needs to be addressed from the top of an organization down. With some sort of verification needed that teachers are maintaining that quality (such as drop-ins from a local rep, or requiring outsiders to be on testing panels black belt and above), and/or reporting system if for instance you get a black belt at your dojo who doesn't know what they're supposed to, you can report and a local representative would follow up with the dojo. Or something like BJJ where the community self-polices itself.

Unfortunately, I don't see the kukkiwon changing their methods at this point

 

[Raistlin]

If standards are being enforced, then I would agree that the rank should be honored from school to school. Unfortunately, in the case of the Kukkiwon, this is not happening. There is a Kukkiwon certified school nearby who boasts about their Kukkiwon affilation and that all of their instructors have degrees from the Yong-In University in Korea. He promotes over 100 black belts per year. I have been teaching for 32 years (more years than this gentleman has been alive) and haven't promoted 100 black belts in my career. I have had a couple of his black belts leave and come train with me. Neither of them could remember any of their forms. One of them couldn't even tell me the names of their forms. It's actually very sad what is being promoted through the Kukkiwon, and quite frankly the reason that I refuse to affiliate with them. I don't want to tarnish my reputation.

The Kukkiwon does have some very talented black belts, but unfortunately, that is the exception now and not the rule. It's really too bad, because they seem to have a lot of great things going for them. They appear to be well structured, they seem to have lots of resources available to their members. It's too bad they don't have a reliable way to maintain any kind of standard within their schools.

 

[drop bear]

It depends on the school. It works for bjj. Because people can have different play styles.

But if you can't accommodate for that. Then there is friction.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If standards are being enforced, then I would agree that the rank should be honored from school to school. Unfortunately, in the case of the Kukkiwon, this is not happening. There is a Kukkiwon certified school nearby who boasts about their Kukkiwon affilation and that all of their instructors have degrees from the Yong-In University in Korea. He promotes over 100 black belts per year. I have been teaching for 32 years (more years than this gentleman has been alive) and haven't promoted 100 black belts in my career.

I think I've promoted 8-10 black belts in the last 15 years. Two 2nd Dans.

I have had a couple of his black belts leave and come train with me. Neither of them could remember any of their forms. One of them couldn't even tell me the names of their forms.

@skribs calls that "brain dumping", which seems a really good term for this phenomenon. It's apparently considered the norm for his old TKD school.

 

[MadMartigan]

A big part of the reciprocity issue depends on intention. If someone from another school in the same art/org or even another martial art entirely is just visiting, then I'd suggest they wear their current rank. If their intention is to join and learn what we do, then it depends. Generally I'll offer:
- KKW TKD to my TKD style = wear your current belt, learn up to that point, then grade to go further
Karate = Either the same as above (if we have similar enough belt structures) or evaluate for a few classes and recommend a color for where their ability fits.
I typically wouldn't recommend they wear a white belt, as they're likely far too experienced for that to be an efficient use of our time.

If they were coming from a non-related background (grappling, etc) then white belt would be appropriate. Just as a TKD black belt is a BJJ white belt, the opposite hold true as well.

As for the "forced reciprocity" question, I'm not a fan of forced anything. That said, I think it's correct for the expectation to be that rank will be honored in another school in the same art.

 

[skribs]

I think I've promoted 8-10 black belts in the last 15 years. Two 2nd Dans.

I'm going to guess part of that is that you have higher standards for black belt. I like to think that a BJJ black belt is like a doctorate-level degree (which makes sense that they would be called "Professor"), and that in KKW, a TKD black belt is more like an Associate's degree. I'm going out on a limb and saying that yours is more like a Bachelor's/Master's degree? Or maybe even PHD level.

We averaged about 10-15 black belts per year (except for 2020), and about 1 third-degree per year (although they tended to be lumped together) during my 9 years there.

@skribs calls that "brain dumping", which seems a really good term for this phenomenon. It's apparently considered the norm for his old TKD school.

From a poll I ran, it's around 25% that do this. It's not limited to martial arts, either. It's how a lot of academics work, too. As soon as you complete a chapter test, most students forget the material in the chapter, because it's time to memorize for the next one.

Personally, I didn't brain dump. I was the lone exception. It's why I was able to become an instructor.

The school I'm looking into joining in my new town doesn't brain dump. The owner (who is a degree or two higher than my old school) has an opinion of younger masters that they feel the need to "over-test" to prove their school's worth. That's why, between the color belt curriculum I taught, black belt curriculum, and Hapkido curriculum, I had about 400 different numbered items to memorize, 40 of which were long forms.

If he did require students to retain everything they memorized, I may very well have been the only student capable of getting a black belt there. That might be an unfair assessment. I do think a few of the others would have been able to retain the material if expected to. (Hence my threads about memorization asking the question). But I believe we would have had less black belts than you if he stopped the brain dumps without editing down his curriculum.

It depends on the school. It works for bjj. Because people can have different play styles.

But if you can't accommodate for that. Then there is friction.

I think the ranking structure and rank enforcement mechanisms are so fundamentally different from Taekwondo, that we might not be able to find much of a benefit for comparing belt reciprocity between the two. I could be mistaken, but I think this is an apples-and-oranges relationship.

 

[O'Malley]

Depends on the situation. I don't really care for belts since my goal is just to train so I've often worn my white belt in the dojo. But then newbies weren't really listening when I corrected them. So despite thirteen years of MA experience including ten in the art, and despite having done more research on the art than 90% of instructors, I've come to terms with the fact that my authority relies on a piece of coloured fabric. In such cases yeah mutual recognition can solve headaches.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depends on the situation. I don't really care for belts since my goal is just to train so I've often worn my white belt in the dojo. But then newbies weren't really listening when I corrected them. So despite thirteen years of MA experience including ten in the art, and despite having done more research on the art than 90% of instructors, I've come to terms with the fact that my authority relies on a piece of coloured fabric. In such cases yeah mutual recognition can solve headaches.

I've noticed this when I enter new gyms. Especially those in styles where there are no belts. I'll start training, and the people with experience might give a pointer or two before we get into drills, then stop once they realize I know what I'm doing. But newbies are different. They'll constantly be trying to correct me, excited to share the two months of knowledge that they have, whenever I do a variation of something, or something that's not 'textbook correct' (for orthodox, a lot of it's correct since I'm southpaw but they don't understand the differences).

Had one of them, after a sparring session a couple days ago, say "Wow you got really good really quick". I haven't the heart to tell him...

 

[skribs]

Depends on the situation. I don't really care for belts since my goal is just to train so I've often worn my white belt in the dojo. But then newbies weren't really listening when I corrected them. So despite thirteen years of MA experience including ten in the art, and despite having done more research on the art than 90% of instructors, I've come to terms with the fact that my authority relies on a piece of coloured fabric. In such cases yeah mutual recognition can solve headaches.

A newbie doesn't know good advice from bad advice by the advice itself, but by the authority in which the advice-giver holds. The authority granted by the belt is granted based on a combination of experience and demonstrable skill and knowledge, meaning someone with a darker belt knows a thing or two, because they've seen a thing or two.

Although you did kinda prove me wrong on the TKD vs BJJ thing, because I'm going to use one of the basic rules in BJJ: white belts aren't allowed to coach.

 

[skribs]

(for orthodox, a lot of it's correct since I'm southpaw but they don't understand the differences).

I think we have more southpaw than orthodox in the muay thai class at my BJJ school. I'm not even exaggerating.

 

[O'Malley]

I've noticed this when I enter new gyms. Especially those in styles where there are no belts. I'll start training, and the people with experience might give a pointer or two before we get into drills, then stop once they realize I know what I'm doing. But newbies are different. They'll constantly be trying to correct me, excited to share the two months of knowledge that they have, whenever I do a variation of something, or something that's not 'textbook correct' (for orthodox, a lot of it's correct since I'm southpaw but they don't understand the differences).

Had one of them, after a sparring session a couple days ago, say "Wow you got really good really quick". I haven't the heart to tell him...

I get that at seminars sometimes. It's still less annoying than partners with selective resistance. You know, the guys who resist with all their might when what you're doing is different from how they think it should be done, and who go all floppy when it looks like what they think is correct. So obnoxious.

 

[drop bear]

I'm going to guess part of that is that you have higher standards for black belt. I like to think that a BJJ black belt is like a doctorate-level degree (which makes sense that they would be called "Professor"), and that in KKW, a TKD black belt is more like an Associate's degree. I'm going out on a limb and saying that yours is more like a Bachelor's/Master's degree? Or maybe even PHD level.

We averaged about 10-15 black belts per year (except for 2020), and about 1 third-degree per year (although they tended to be lumped together) during my 9 years there.

From a poll I ran, it's around 25% that do this. It's not limited to martial arts, either. It's how a lot of academics work, too. As soon as you complete a chapter test, most students forget the material in the chapter, because it's time to memorize for the next one.

Personally, I didn't brain dump. I was the lone exception. It's why I was able to become an instructor.

The school I'm looking into joining in my new town doesn't brain dump. The owner (who is a degree or two higher than my old school) has an opinion of younger masters that they feel the need to "over-test" to prove their school's worth. That's why, between the color belt curriculum I taught, black belt curriculum, and Hapkido curriculum, I had about 400 different numbered items to memorize, 40 of which were long forms.

If he did require students to retain everything they memorized, I may very well have been the only student capable of getting a black belt there. That might be an unfair assessment. I do think a few of the others would have been able to retain the material if expected to. (Hence my threads about memorization asking the question). But I believe we would have had less black belts than you if he stopped the brain dumps without editing down his curriculum.


I think the ranking structure and rank enforcement mechanisms are so fundamentally different from Taekwondo, that we might not be able to find much of a benefit for comparing belt reciprocity between the two. I could be mistaken, but I think this is an apples-and-oranges relationship.

Not between the two. I mean like for like. A high level BJJ player can come in and have a completely different game to the existing class. And still be ha high level player.

Where i think that would be more difficult in tkd.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm going to guess part of that is that you have higher standards for black belt.

I tend to think so, yes.

I like to think that a BJJ black belt is like a doctorate-level degree (which makes sense that they would be called "Professor"), and that in KKW, a TKD black belt is more like an Associate's degree.

Since the KKW considers 1st Dan a beginner rank, I think it's probably more analogous to graduating High School.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that yours is more like a Bachelor's/Master's degree? Or maybe even PHD level.

1st Dan is the lowest teaching rank, so I'd say it's probably a Bachelors. Continuing the analogy, a 4th Dan (Master) would be a Masters, and a 7th Dan would be a PhD. At 8th you'd get tenure, and at 9th, you'd finally get a decent parking space.

From a poll I ran, it's around 25% that do this. It's not limited to martial arts, either. It's how a lot of academics work, too. As soon as you complete a chapter test, most students forget the material in the chapter, because it's time to memorize for the next one.

I know a lot of highly educated people. MS, MD, PhD, or multiples. People I would consider academics. None of them "brain dump". I think it's pretty common in undergrads, especially those who are more interested in party time than study time. I do not think it is at all common in actual academics, but maybe we have a different view on what counts as an academic.

Personally, I didn't brain dump. I was the lone exception. It's why I was able to become an instructor.

Good for you. I'd say you did the right thing. It's no secret that I don't have a super high opinion on how your old school was run, based on what you've written here. It sounds like this new school is potentially a much better one.

 

[punisher73]

Not to pick on BJJ, but in my VERY limited experience, even with different "styles" of rolling and strategy, you are going to know pretty quickly their appropriate rank. I can't imagine a BJJ Brown Belt going into another school and being told that he is barely a blue belt in that school.

But, when you factor in "belt factories" for other MA's, you really don't know what you are going to be getting. For me, everyone was a white belt regardless of previous rank if it was a different style. Usually, they progressed faster with the material, but still had to learn our way of doing things. Anyone who was actually there to learn what I was offering never had a problem with this and understood.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not between the two. I mean like for like. A high level BJJ player can come in and have a completely different game to the existing class. And still be ha high level player.

Where i think that would be more difficult in tkd.

I think that is largely because you don't train TKD. A high level KKW player could be in real trouble were they to go to a non-KKW school, where people will punch you in the nose if you spar with your hands down. But they're still a high level player.

 

[skribs]

It sounds like this new school is potentially a much better one.

In some ways yes, in some ways no. I'll have to see over time if any of those opinions change. The new school has fairly short classes, virtually no contact in sparring, and some of their rituals seem a bit over-the-top to me. For example, in some contexts when they count, they will count "1, sir; 2, sir; 3, sir...".

I'm not going to be a jerk about it. "When in Rome", as they say. But at the moment it's not a school I see myself at long-term. I see it as transactionary. I have goals. They can help me meet those goals, and in return they get tuition payments and some assistant instructorship.

1st Dan is the lowest teaching rank, so I'd say it's probably a Bachelors. Continuing the analogy, a 4th Dan (Master) would be a Masters, and a 7th Dan would be a PhD. At 8th you'd get tenure, and at 9th, you'd finally get a decent parking space.

The problem with your use of the analogy is that if you're continuing your education, it doesn't typically take 6+ years to go from Bachelor's to Masters. (It can if you take a break to work or go to prison for 5 years).

 

[HighKick]

When I say "belt reciprocity", I'm mainly looking at the forced reciprocity between KKW schools. If I join another KKW school, I join as a 3rd Dan, because KKW says I'm a 3rd Dan. Opinions on discretionary reciprocity are also welcome, but secondarily to the primary question of forced reciprocity.

Personally, I like these policies because it gives me peace-of-mind when selecting a new school that I will be accepted at the rank I feel I have earned. This is important to me, because I have goals that require me to be a specific rank to achieve, and being able to "pick up where I left off" is important for meeting those goals in a preferred timeline.

However, I've seen the negative effects as well. We had one student who clearly got her black belt from a McDojo. She was metaphorically drowning in the black belt class. Her skill level would have been perfect for the purple belt class. My personal opinion is that both she and the school would have been better off putting her in the lower class. Then she would have been taught the appropriate techniques for her stage of martial development, and the school wouldn't have someone badly representing us as a black belt.

I think it is fair to bash on KKW to a degree, but the base of the issue lies at the individual school or instructor level. In that respect, it is blind to style. In TKD, this is only getting worse as way too many schools are purely WT/KKW and have little to no historical base of knowledge beyond a set of forms and a specific sparring style.
As far as reciprocity, I believe there has to be some consideration for a person's history and contributions. If someone is 3rd Dan, but has been away from TKD for a while, it is reasonable to let them keep their belt while they get back up to speed. But 'up to speed' is relative. Plus, as people age, it should not be expected of them to perform at the same level. Yes, that is different from the memorization of poomsae, one-steps, etc... but that has to be evaluated on an individual level. It cannot be looked at as a bunch of puppets performing exactly the same way.
If a school it a lame duck, I think it will be apparent across all belt levels.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I tend to think so, yes.

Since the KKW considers ......................................

, a 4th Dan (Master) would be a Masters, ............................

Does the KKW system have more to learn after reaching 4th Dan?