In your opinion, is belt reciprocity a good or bad thing?

Earl Weiss

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I think that is largely because you don't train TKD. A high level KKW player could be in real trouble were they to go to a non-KKW school, where people will punch you in the nose if you spar with your hands down. But they're still a high level player.
I have had this happen, but if they stick around, in a couple of months they can figure it out ("Pain is the best teacher but no one wants to go to his class"- General Choi) Once they figure it out they can do really well. in a relatively short period of time. Hardest part is breaking old habits as opposed to developing certain striking skills. Same with ITF people who go to a place that allows leg kicks. Seg waying to a grappling art is a transition that takes a lot longer to become proficient.
 
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Does the KKW system have more to learn after reaching 4th Dan?
Officially, there's a new form every degree all the way up. A 4th Dan is supposed to learn the form Pyongwon, a 5th Dan Sipjin, and so on. However, you have that many years to learn one form...it's mostly a formality. Higher ranks I believe are more about politics, experience, and contributions to the art than they are about learning.

I can't speak specifically for my old Master's curriculum, but I imagine his 4th Dan curriculum is like the rest of it. A bunch more stuff to memorize.
I have had this happen, but if they stick around, in a couple of months they can figure it out ("Pain is the best teacher but no one wants to go to his class"- General Choi) Once they figure it out they can do really well. in a relatively short period of time. Hardest part is breaking old habits as opposed to developing certain striking skills. Same with ITF people who go to a place that allows leg kicks. Seg waying to a grappling art is a transition that takes a lot longer to become proficient.
I'm noticing this in my Muay Thai/MMA class. There are some things that just translate really well. And some things that are completely foreign. And some things that I watched Muay Thai videos and tried to do the way they do them in Muay Thai, but turns out my coach wants us to do it in a more Karate/TKD style.

For example, leg kicks. In most of the videos and discussions, it's like swinging a bat. But my coach wants us to chamber the leg kicks. It's a different chamber than we've used, but I can feel the effect.

Then he has us do spinning kicks. I'm the best in the room at those. Even better than my coach, because spinning kicks are a luxury in MMA and a staple of TKD.

It's always nice after 45 minutes of looking and feeling like an idiot, when he says, "Ok, let's add a spin kick on the end of this combo." Now I can look like I know what I'm doing!
 

Dirty Dog

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Does the KKW system have more to learn after reaching 4th Dan?
Define "more to learn"...
There are new forms, but not new techniques. Above 4th Dan it's more about teaching, administrating, etc.

Analogies don't have to be exact in every particular.
 

Dirty Dog

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I have had this happen, but if they stick around, in a couple of months they can figure it out ("Pain is the best teacher but no one wants to go to his class"- General Choi) Once they figure it out they can do really well. in a relatively short period of time. Hardest part is breaking old habits as opposed to developing certain striking skills. Same with ITF people who go to a place that allows leg kicks. Seg waying to a grappling art is a transition that takes a lot longer to become proficient.
Sure. Adaptation is faster than learning from scratch. No surprise there.
 
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Sure. Adaptation is faster than learning from scratch. No surprise there.
I don't know that this is universally unsurprising. A lot of people think it's harder to unlearn and relearn than to learn in the first place.

I don't subscribe to this theory, but I do know it is very popular.
 

wab25

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However, you have that many years to learn one form...it's mostly a formality.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "learning the form." What does it mean to learn a form?
 
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "learning the form." What does it mean to learn a form?
As I've told you numerous times, in Kukkiwon Taekwondo it's largely the ability to carbon-copy the exact details of the motion.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don't know that this is universally unsurprising. A lot of people think it's harder to unlearn and relearn than to learn in the first place.

I don't subscribe to this theory, but I do know it is very popular.
People are silly. Pineapple on pizza is popular. It's still wrong.
 

drop bear

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Officially, there's a new form every degree all the way up. A 4th Dan is supposed to learn the form Pyongwon, a 5th Dan Sipjin, and so on. However, you have that many years to learn one form...it's mostly a formality. Higher ranks I believe are more about politics, experience, and contributions to the art than they are about learning.

I can't speak specifically for my old Master's curriculum, but I imagine his 4th Dan curriculum is like the rest of it. A bunch more stuff to memorize.

I'm noticing this in my Muay Thai/MMA class. There are some things that just translate really well. And some things that are completely foreign. And some things that I watched Muay Thai videos and tried to do the way they do them in Muay Thai, but turns out my coach wants us to do it in a more Karate/TKD style.

For example, leg kicks. In most of the videos and discussions, it's like swinging a bat. But my coach wants us to chamber the leg kicks. It's a different chamber than we've used, but I can feel the effect.

Then he has us do spinning kicks. I'm the best in the room at those. Even better than my coach, because spinning kicks are a luxury in MMA and a staple of TKD.

It's always nice after 45 minutes of looking and feeling like an idiot, when he says, "Ok, let's add a spin kick on the end of this combo." Now I can look like I know what I'm doing!

See in muay thai that sort of thing works. You can be a high level guy and not chamber kicks or chamber them. Whatever.

And the people you mentor then get both ideas and options.
 

MadMartigan

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Define "more to learn"...
There are new forms, but not new techniques. Above 4th Dan it's more about teaching, administrating, etc.
Exactly. If this analogy makes sense:

In the early levels, it's mostly about the "what" to do. This is where you learn all the fundamental techniques.

After a certain point (black belt for us) essentially all the "whats" have been learned. Now it transitions more to the "how". There aren't new moves being learned really... just perfecting each detail as much as possible.

For me, the master levels then become about the "why" (along with the how).
 

Earl Weiss

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Exactly. If this analogy makes sense:

In the early levels, it's mostly about the "what" to do. This is where you learn all the fundamental techniques.

After a certain point (black belt for us) essentially all the "whats" have been learned. Now it transitions more to the "how". There aren't new moves being learned really... just perfecting each detail as much as possible.

For me, the master levels then become about the "why" (along with the how).
Define "more to learn"...
There are new forms, but not new techniques. Above 4th Dan<<<

There is a Book Called "Living the Martial Way" By Forrest Morgan. He makes a couple of comments and deliberately does not name the system. One had to do with the system lowering the Dan Rank to which the Title "Master" applied and the other was something to the effect of someone being a "Master" of a system when there was additional material to be learned. I thought perhaps it was the KKW system.
 

Dirty Dog

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There is a Book Called "Living the Martial Way" By Forrest Morgan. He makes a couple of comments and deliberately does not name the system. One had to do with the system lowering the Dan Rank to which the Title "Master" applied and the other was something to the effect of someone being a "Master" of a system when there was additional material to be learned. I thought perhaps it was the KKW system.
I have not read the book, but it's entirely possible. It hinges on how you define "new material".
 

Flying Crane

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Seems to me it may put a spotlight on the practice of granting formal titles such as master at certain rank. Is that really appropriate? Master should be a soft term and not a hard title attached to specific rank. A master is someone who has been training for a long time, has acquired expertise and wisdom and insight, and is really really skilled. That does not imply that they know everything. There is always something more to learn.
 

Dirty Dog

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Seems to me it may put a spotlight on the practice of granting formal titles such as master at certain rank. Is that really appropriate? Master should be a soft term and not a hard title attached to specific rank. A master is someone who has been training for a long time, has acquired expertise and wisdom and insight, and is really really skilled. That does not imply that they know everything. There is always something more to learn.
That's what rank means, too. Or at least, that's what it's supposed to mean. The title merely indicates at what rank the person is expected to have mastered the system.
 
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That's what rank means, too. Or at least, that's what it's supposed to mean. The title merely indicates at what rank the person is expected to have mastered the system.
Or, more practically, at what rank they can gain some autonomy in how they teach.
 

isshinryuronin

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That's what rank means, too. Or at least, that's what it's supposed to mean. The title merely indicates at what rank the person is expected to have mastered the system.
TKD seems to use the term "Master" for those who have reached 5th degree, though I'm not sure if there is variation based on organizations. And is rank based. My thinking, from an Okinawan point of view, is that "Master" is not a formal designation but a term of respect for 9th and 10th degrees. "Hanshi" is more of a formal title that can be given to those of 8th degree and up; "Kyoshi" for 7th and "Renshi" for 5th and 6th. They can be considered teacher ranks.

Technically, those titles are not automatically conferred upon reaching degree ranks, but are awarded outside of the belt ranking system, though as noted, are influenced by it. Again, this may vary slightly according to style and organization. Old style traditional Okinawan systems often do not use stripes to denote degrees of black belt. Rather, they use 1 stripe for renshi, 2 stripes for kyoshi and 3 for hanshi. So, if you see an older Okinawan stylist with 3 gold stripes on his belt, do not think he is a 3rd degree black, but rather at least an 8th.
 
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J. Pickard

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I think if someone cares that much about being recognized as X-level black belt at another school they are putting emphasis on the wrong thing and missing out on a potential opportunity. Anytime I visit another school, even ones where they know me and I frequently visit, I never wear full uniform and assume no rank. This does two things, 1. Lower ranks never feel afraid to offer kind words of advice (needed or not, it's appreciated) or even just approach me. We have all seen those students who get lost in awe of master ranks and feel like they can't give their two cents on something and I hate that. 2. It reminds me to keep an open mind and train like a beginner desperate to learn. So often when we get rank, ego can get in the way of learning.

If the new school is the same system and organization and they have good quality control (not exactly what kukkiwon is known for) they should be able to tell what your rank is just by how you train. My philosophy is I don't care what your piece of paper says, lets get on the mats and train. I've met more poor-quality black belts with KKW certification than I have independently certified and kwan certified. It's not that KKW is bad, because they aren't, it's just a law of larger numbers. They have millions of members, thousands are bound to slip through the cracks. I've never been to a tournament and went "look at his certificate, 8 points!" or seen a fight and thought "I hope that guy has his certificate." that being said, I do understand the importance of KKW certification for those who wish to compete at a high level in WT
 

Earl Weiss

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I have not read the book, but it's entirely possible. It hinges on how you define "new material".
If a system has a syllabus and that system contains anything that is designated to be taught / learned performed at certain levels and not at lower levels that would be "new material".
 

Earl Weiss

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Seems to me it may put a spotlight on the practice of granting formal titles such as master at certain rank. Is that really appropriate? Master should be a soft term and not a hard title attached to specific rank. ....................... There is always something more to learn.
This puts a spotlight on different perspectives.

I view the term as Analogous to "Master" as used in the relationship of Master and apprentice. While you are correct that with many disciplines there may always be more to learn. However, within a finite defined system - not so much. There may always be things beyond the system.
 
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