Black Belts and Poor Kicks

ETinCYQX

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Perhaps we're not on the same page as I have a different definition. Kata is an excellent additon to an art, particularly if proper bunkai is taught, however, many arts don't use this concept of teaching. I would not define their training as lacking because of it. Sparring can also be a fine addition, but only within the context that it is taught i.e. sport sparring is a poor choice for self-defense and vice-versa.

When I think of complete, I'm thinking within the context of the arts purpose. Perhaps from a sport or hobbyest (which is fine) perspective, KKW TKD can be considered complete. I view martial arts more from a self defense perspective so I always think of the art being viable at different combat ranges, ground defense, different options other than striking i.e. locking/throwing/pressing etc, weapons, pre-fight tactics, different clothing, different settings and environmental stimuli etc.

As I've mentioned in the past, perhaps that is one of TKD's strong suits in that it has different aspects for different goals. And perhaps that can also be considered part of being complete. Hmmm..'part' of being 'complete' sounds odd :)

The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, I don't bother with street clothes. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.
 

Tez3

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The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, I don't bother with street clothes. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.

Probably just as well you aren't a woman wearing heels, tights skirts etc then!:uhohh:
 

SPX

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When I think of complete, I'm thinking within the context of the arts purpose. Perhaps from a sport or hobbyest (which is fine) perspective, KKW TKD can be considered complete.

It's a complete STRIKING style. If you look at the techniques in their patterns there are punches, kicks, hand techniques like ridge hands and hammer fists, elbows and knees. Whether or not the average dojang really trains the techniques that aren't allowed in competition is something to consider, but the fact is that just about everything you need to batter another human being is in the system.
 

Kong Soo Do

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The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, I don't bother with street clothes. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.

There seems to be, unfortunately, quite a lot you're not bothering to consider. I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'. However, there is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to SD situations. When you have only a hammer you tend to consider everything a nail. For example, you mention full contact sparring as the best teaching tool. It isn't from a SD perspective. It is 'a' teaching tool, if used properly. However, it doesn't cover pre-fight tactics such as de-esculation, escape and/or evasion, concealed or improvised weapons, multiple attacker (who may or may not be armed), evironmental factors which absolutely can influence and/or dictate actions and responses etc. When used as a typical 'you start here and your single, unarmed opponent starts over there and now you punch and/or kick and then start all over again and again'...it is actually detrimental to realistic SD because that isn't a real fight. Nor does it allow the options I've mentioned nor does it address the options necessarly for responses other than striking/kicking.

There is quite a bit more to realistic SD training that I would suggest you take the time to learn for the benefit of your students, if that is a goal for them.
 

Kong Soo Do

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It's a complete STRIKING style. If you look at the techniques in their patterns there are punches, kicks, hand techniques like ridge hands and hammer fists, elbows and knees. Whether or not the average dojang really trains the techniques that aren't allowed in competition is something to consider, but the fact is that just about everything you need to batter another human being is in the system.

Perhaps this could be a viable definition i.e. complete striking art. As I mentioned above with the hammer and nail analogy though, the options are limited and don't fully address the reality of the situation. KKW TKD can be consider, I suppose, an excellent sport art and from that perspective perhaps even a complete art for the intended purpose. That definition can not fully cover other considerations though. My point is to celebrate KKW TKD for what it is and what it has to offer for those wanting that venue. There is no need to stretch it to cover a venue that it simply doesnt'.
 

Metal

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My point is, people can stay in shape and do the more difficult techniques as they age through regular practice or, like my instructor, get the ability back if they deal with any physical problem that causes a loss of ability in the first place. Train smarter (and maybe a little harder) and on a regular basis. Gen. Choi was kicking to his own head level in his 80's.

Pax,

Chris

I disagree since this won't be possible for everybody. Yet those people who don't have any health issues and those who can spend the time in the dojang should definitely work on keeping their skills.

I've seen masters in their 80s who still were extremely flexible and in excellent shape. And those people inspire me and make me keep going. Yet everybody has the right to slow down things when they feel the need to and of course still keep their hard earned rank.

Younger black belts who can't do a proper Yop or Dollyo Chagi are a no-go though.
 

chrispillertkd

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I disagree since this won't be possible for everybody. Yet those people who don't have any health issues and those who can spend the time in the dojang should definitely work on keeping their skills.

I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with, here. That people won't be able to stay in shape and do difficult techniques as they age if they practice regularly? Sure they will, barring any health issues or injuries (which I hope was clear from the context of what I said). They might nnot be able to do them as well as they could when they were younger, but they'll still be able to do them.

I've seen masters in their 80s who still were extremely flexible and in excellent shape. And those people inspire me and make me keep going. Yet everybody has the right to slow down things when they feel the need to and of course still keep their hard earned rank.

I don't think anyone's arguing for anyone to lose rank if they can't do, say, a flying double kick anymore. Depnding on the system being physically incapable of doing techniques might well prevent people from further promotion, though.

Pax,

Chris
 

ETinCYQX

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Fine, let's do this again.

There seems to be, unfortunately, quite a lot you're not bothering to consider. I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'. However, there is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to SD situations.

There is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to job interviews, too.

When you have only a hammer you tend to consider everything a nail. For example, you mention full contact sparring as the best teaching tool. It isn't from a SD perspective.

Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge my eyes or punch my face.

It is 'a' teaching tool, if used properly. However, it doesn't cover pre-fight tactics such as de-esculation, escape and/or evasion, concealed or improvised weapons, multiple attacker (who may or may not be armed), evironmental factors which absolutely can influence and/or dictate actions and responses etc.

The principles don't change. I must have said this fifteen hundred times on this board. This is also a good example of

I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'.

which I also didn't say you said. I said it was a prevalent view amongst self defense practitioners and it is.

The absolute essential principles a martial artist learns from full contact sparring are reading an opponent (essential in SD), distance control (also essential in SD), how to take a hit (once again) and timing. What else do I need to know?

When used as a typical 'you start here and your single, unarmed opponent starts over there and now you punch and/or kick and then start all over again and again'...it is actually detrimental to realistic SD because that isn't a real fight. Nor does it allow the options I've mentioned nor does it address the options necessarly for responses other than striking/kicking.

This is a canned answer that demonstrates a lack of consideration to what I'm actually saying, to be honest. Think about it.

There is quite a bit more to realistic SD training that I would suggest you take the time to learn for the benefit of your students, if that is a goal for them.

I feel the need to point out that I have instructors who are directly above me, in the same lineage of KKW Taekwondo, whose opinions are more relevant to what I'm doing and teaching because they see what I do and teach. If there was something else I needed for 'realistic' SD training, I'm sure they would point it out. I don't consider most of what I see in self defense classes to be realistic at all, which is why I do sparring instead. Notice that I don't make assumptions or judgement calls about what you teach, because I have no experience with your teaching.

Let's use this as an example. Jimmy goes to a Judo tournament. His first match, another Judo player grabs his jacket and Jimmy reacts by throwing him with an ippon soei nage. That night, Jimmy goes to a bar, and someone takes a punch at him. Jimmy reacts by throwing the guy again with an ippon soei nage. How is dealing with the guy at the bar any different from dealing with Jimmy's Judo opponent?

That's not even to say that Jimmy will react with a soei nage throw. Maybe he reacts with a simple foot sweep. Either way, it's the same principles he understands from years of Judo, but applied to the guy at the bar and not a fellow Judo player.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Fine, let's do this again.

There is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to job interviews, too.

Ok, let's do it again :)

We're not talking about job interviews. We're talking about KKW TKD being, as you termed it, a complete martial art. We're examining under what definition that term would fit. Under the definition of sport, hobby, self discovery etc it would probably fit fine. For SD it doesn't. That is a professional observation based upon observing both and doing one, on an almost daily basis against real bad guys. This lends to the next statement;

I feel the need to point out that I have instructors who are directly above me, in the same lineage of KKW Taekwondo, whose opinions are more relevant to what I'm doing and teaching because they see what I do and teach. If there was something else I needed for 'realistic' SD training, I'm sure they would point it out.

Perhaps, but what if they don't know anymore about realistic SD than you do? Don't take this as a jab or as inflammatory. People can only teach what they have themselves been taught or researched. KKW TKD isn't really centered around realistic SD. It is a sport and should be celebrated for that as I've mentioned numerous times. But not stretched to fill a definition it doesn't fit.

Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge my eyes or punch my face.

The absolute essential principles a martial artist learns from full contact sparring are reading an opponent (essential in SD), distance control (also essential in SD), how to take a hit (once again) and timing. What else do I need to know?

In regards to full contact sparring, we disagree. It is 'a' way but not the best for SD because it in no way, as typically taught, covers the range of training necessary for SD. It does cover some, as you've listed above. But if that is all that is being taught to a student, they're being short-changed dramatically because SD isn't a sparring match.

What else do you need to know? Have you been reading my posts with an eye towards gaining something out of them? I've mentioned a plethora of stuff that doesn't fall under 'gouging eyes and punching the face...which by the way is actually a pretty stupid thing to do in a SD situation. You NEVER punch the face unless you're just totally surprised and it's reactionary or you have no other viable choice. And this is an example of what instructors who want to teach SD need to know and then teach. Once again, to cover just a few things, de-escalation, evasion, escape, stun n run, fight or flight, flinch response, OODA loop, gross motor vs. refined motor skills, adrenaline induced responses etc. Things I've been covering here (and other places) for years.

This is a canned answer that demonstrates a lack of consideration to what I'm actually saying, to be honest. Think about it.

You're becoming defensive and there is no need to be. This isn't a 'your TKD sucks' thread or postings. If we're discussing TKD as a complete art and are using the SD definition we need to be able to intelligently discuss where it does and where it doesn't fit the definition. If we're using sport as the definition then lets concentrate on that and I'll tip my hat because you sound like you're more experienced in that area. But if we're using SD as the definition for 'complete' art, listen to what I'm saying because I live it, and teach it to those that live it and teach it. Use whatever is applicable to what you teach now and add on where it fits for those of your students that desire SD. TKD can easily include ground defense that is part of the art and not just an addition to the art, it can include locks/throws that are also a part of the art and not just additional stuff tossed in. Occasionally classes can be scenario based to have elements of sparring with additional options to de-escalate, escape, evade, use improvised weapons and barriers as well as different stimuli that will affect reactions such as lighting, clothing, weather, surface area, being surprised etc. The options are limitless and SD students will benefit the most.
 

ETinCYQX

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Again, what else are you thinking I need to know? Is it specific techniques like locks, throws, etc.? Changing clothes, weather, etc does not affect solid principles so that's completely irrelevant like I said earlier.

I'm far from defensive, maybe exasperated that you're either ignoring, avoiding or not getting my point still. Taekwondo is what it is. By the way my reference to my superiors was really a polite way to ask you not to talk down to me like I'm one of your students. I go out of my way not to be patronizing, I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Again, what else are you thinking I need to know? Is it specific techniques like locks, throws, etc.? Changing clothes, weather, etc does not affect solid principles so that's completely irrelevant like I said earlier.

Clothing, weather, contact surfaces, confined areas, lighting, etc can and will affect the proficiency of principles directly. This is why we train different scenarios in L.E. which have direct applications for any student of the martial arts. Others have mentioned this in this thread, and others. It is one thing to be warmed up, stretched out, wearing protective gear with an opponent that is doing the same and adheres to the same rule set. But that isn't SD. There are other factors of consideration that are very important.

I'm far from defensive, maybe exasperated that you're either ignoring, avoiding or not getting my point still. Taekwondo is what it is. By the way my reference to my superiors was really a polite way to ask you not to talk down to me like I'm one of your students. I go out of my way not to be patronizing, I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

It seemed you were getting defensive and I'm sorry your exasperated. I'm reading everything you've offered with an open mind. I simply disagree with you on some points due to my personal experiences and training. I don't believe I've talked down to you at all, I'm sorry you feel this way. I've feel like I'm an instructor in one area, discussing a point of interest with another instructor. That is my intend and tone as I'd like it to be taken. I've mentioned before that if sport style sparring were an interest to me and my students, I would seek out those that delve deeply into it so that I can learn from them. Conversely, if someone is interested in SD and how it can be included into their current teaching/training then they should seek out and listen to those that not only teach it successfully but use it successfully. So, if the definition for complete art is touching on the sport/hobby/social interaction etc side of TKD then we can come into close agreement. If the definition is SD then I have to point out the where and why KKW TKD isn't a complete art. That isn't meant to offend anyone although it could be taken to challenge one to consider the experiences of others in this venue. For me not to discuss things within my realm of experience would be selfish on my part. Don't take that as arrogant as it isn't meant that way. We all have areas that we tend to gravitate to based on many factors. SD just happens to be my area of specialization. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you take away just a single thing I offer that does something to enhance you as a student and as a teacher then I've done a good job.
:)
 

ETinCYQX

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Fair enough. Maybe I take things too personally on occasion.

We've done this a couple of times before, plus we're well off topic. Probably just as well not to keep going around and around.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Fair enough. Maybe I take things too personally on occasion.

We've done this a couple of times before, plus we're well off topic. Probably just as well not to keep going around and around.

Nothing personal meant toward you in any regard :) I see it as a couple of guys with a passion for the arts. Thank you for the conversation.
 

WaterGal

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I have a few kicks that have little to no martial value that I'd like to learn to do.

I actually would like to be on a demo team, like the KTigers. Maybe not quite at that high of a level, but maybe a couple of notches below that.

Doing demos is pretty fun, even if it's not at a high level. I was on the demo team for my GM's school last year, and we just did some local street festivals and stuff like that, but it was good extra training and lots of fun. Does your school have a team?

For demos you do have to drill a lot as a team (we did 1-2 hours a week, on top of regular classes) to have it consistently look good and come off smoothly. I mean, it's one thing to do something in front of 20 quiet people at the school and another to do it in front of 200 loud strangers at a street festival! Stage fright and distractions can be an issue. But it's a pretty great feeling to do a sparring match and have people cheering you, or oohing and aahing when you do a flashy break.
 

Matt.A

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My right leg round and side kicks are better then my left. My left front kick and ax kick are better then my right. I dont do the tornado kick very well at all. Others in my school have better kicks then me, I have better kicks then others. We all put forth the effort, learn the poomse and one steps. We attend class and compatitions. When our school thinks we are ready to test for black belt, we will test. If the masters, think we deserve to be a black belt, then we get permoted. I hope this answered your question.
 

WaterGal

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Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge my eyes or punch my face.

While I think you and Kong Soo Do both have good points, I do have to disagree with this. The moves you do, and the moves you anticipate your opponent doing, are a result of the rules you use, and people can develop... sort of blind spots, I guess... I think because your instincts have been trained in particular way based on how you're used to sparring.

In my own experience, I'd done WTF sparring for a couple years before I tried hapkido sport sparring. Now, the rules for that, at least the ones we use, are basically "WTF + grabs, pushes, and sweeps" and you get points also for putting your opponent on the ground. And it turns out, a lot of the pretty turn kicks and head shots I love in TKD sparring just don't work as well in sport HKD, because having my leg in the air that much gives them something to grab onto and use as leverage. I learned by getting my butt handed to me a lot that, even though it looks at lot the same and you wear the same gear, the tactics really have to be different because of the different rules.
 

ETinCYQX

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While I think you and Kong Soo Do both have good points, I do have to disagree with this. The moves you do, and the moves you anticipate your opponent doing, are a result of the rules you use, and people can develop... sort of blind spots, I guess... I think because your instincts have been trained in particular way based on how you're used to sparring.

In my own experience, I'd done WTF sparring for a couple years before I tried hapkido sport sparring. Now, the rules for that, at least the ones we use, are basically "WTF + grabs, pushes, and sweeps" and you get points also for putting your opponent on the ground. And it turns out, a lot of the pretty turn kicks and head shots I love in TKD sparring just don't work as well in sport HKD, because having my leg in the air that much gives them something to grab onto and use as leverage. I learned by getting my butt handed to me a lot that, even though it looks at lot the same and you wear the same gear, the tactics really have to be different because of the different rules.

Yes, specific moves change, principles don't. I had to learn some new techniques when I started Judo, but did I have to learn how to fight again? No, and there's no crossover in those rulesets at all. I'd bet if you were asked to do a wrestling or a judo match, you'd do better than you'd expect just because you have an understanding of fighting developed from tkd and hkd. That's usually my experience.

EDIT: I guess it has a bit to do with your learning style as well. I am not one to learn things step by step, I'm a big picture person. Probably why I see things this way. For example, now that I have an understanding of what I'm doing when I spar I don't even really pay attention to my stances, or my hand position, or anything else.
 

ETinCYQX

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Whoever gave me negative reputation on that last post, you might try actually asking me the question on the board so I can answer you. Unless, of course, you don't want an answer and you'd rather pretend you have some sort of superior knowledge when you're actually failing to comprehend the point, which is the problem with MT lately. ;)

Fighting has the same principles regardless of the rules, which is what I said. Judo and Taekwondo as a martial art are very different, as a sport they are not so different. Distance doesn't change, timing doesn't change, controlling the ring doesn't change. What changes is what techniques you are allowed to use, which once again is secondary to the point.

Thinking about it, it may be a little esoteric of a suggestion for some. I forget sometimes that not everyone learns the same way. Doesn't excuse willful ignorance in favor of what amounts to catch phrases.
 
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Kong Soo Do

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A bit off topic, but I'd like to see it be a requirement to put in your screen name when you rep someone. I've received many + rep that I would like to have at least said thank you in return. Conversely, if you get a neg rep it would be nice to have something more substantial than an anonymous drive-by from someone that doesn't agree with you but doesn't leave their name/screen name. That doesn't prove or solve anything.
 
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