I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Phobius]

9 pages of mostly non-constructive comments. Albeit some very interesting discussions here and there...

I just had to add my thoughts on this matter:
YouTube warriors learn martial arts and in this case anti-grappling from a video. Martial art students everywhere learn from studying and practising together in class or with friends. Then why do so many people believe that A. There is a simple key to solve any and every puzzel? B. That the promotional video might not simply display marketing techniques rather than anti-grappling techniques?

I doubt any of the masters selling videos be it for GJJ or WC believes that anyone would learn useful stuff from a video alone. In such a case the display may only be for a beginner training technique to get people used to moving around in a three dimensional environment. Everyone gets physical once they start doing grappling for the first time, and some limits will be quickly identified. Dealing with those limits will give new behavior and as such your class constantly develops. No magical key to unlocking some hidden secret.

So my own experience from the matter is that if you want to counter someone in their own field you train that field more than they do. Otherwise become better than them with transitions through more practise, or perhaps learn ground game better than they know striking game. So on so forth... usually the fight end up in the game people feel most uncomfortable with anyway so try and stay alive long enough to end up in your opponents worst game instead.

If there is a real fight expect to feel pain, just hope you feel less pain than your opponent.

 

[Jake104]

You need the simplest highest percentage movements that you can get away with. Because for the main that is all you are going to get to use.

I like this part of your post. You lost me at, " if someone started dancing the marcarena". I prefer the cha cha.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

9 pages of mostly non-constructive comments.

Let's try some "constructive" comment here. If you want to develop "anti-grappling" ability, the 1st step is you have to know:

how to

- avoid clinch (have already been suggested in one of my previous post),
- deal with clinch (if you fail to avoid it),

Since the most common clinchs (from a wrestler point of view) are:

1. head lock,
2. over hook,
3. under hook,
4. waist wrap,

When your opponent applies an

- head lock, or over hook on you, since his arm is above your arm, it gives you a chance to apply under hook, or waist wrap on him. So 3 and 4 can be used to anti 1 and 2.
- under hook, or waist wrap on you, since his arm is under your arm, it gives you a chance to apply head lock, or over hook on him. So 1 and 2 can be used to anti 3 and 4.

Since the chance is always 50-50 between the technique and it's counters, there is no advantage to use one to against another. You hope that you can have more knowledge, experience, and ability in dealing with the clinch situation than your opponent can.

After you have the ability to do "anti clinch", you then try to develop the ability to do

- anti take down, and then
- anti ground game.

IMO, this is the best path that can lead you to reach to your goal "anti grappling".

 

[drop bear]

I like this part of your post. You lost me at, " if someone started dancing the marcarena". I prefer the cha cha.

Yeah especially for anti grapple or self defence because you tend to run really lean in regards to techniques learnt.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Except that is the training method of successful martial artists. So we are looking at proven training methods and reflecting that.

|
You mean SOME MARTIAL ARTISTS. I have never struck a focus mitt. uck, uck, uck.

If someone started dancing the Macarena instead of pad work and then started winning fights. Without preconceptions we would be seriously looking into dancing the Macarena.

|
I see we have expert tread-keeper-goers here. To go K-Man's way for a moment, the Okinawan karate masters have a number of tools other than, ugh, focus mitts.... So if you are a big karate-learning aid buff... why not go to the horses mouth, so to speak?

It would have nothing to do with trying to get results from a concept we are hanging. On to in spite of evidence otherwise.

Repetively striking a focus mitt sure didn't prepare all those Gracie-foe-striking-experts in those Gracie demo vids. Talk about results, geeshhhhh...

That is why when we look at that op vid. Wing chun has chain punching. So the solution to grappling must be chain punching. Otherwise it isn't chun.

|
I like your thought process here. Yet to evaluate TMA correctly, we have to get into the style proper. I've observed WC to Shotokan to Tang Soo Do having a grappling component. More serious study of these styles reveals priciples & tactics, not just a certain technique. Iain A.'s work here is perfect illustration, although very advanced IMO.

It is the kung fu solution. And where sometime it might be incidentally correct. You cant guarantee it.

|
OK as a generality, so limited as such....

And when you are talking concepts like anti grappling you cant be sometimes or sort of correct. You don't ha e the depth of training to get away with it. (a lot of times you don't have the depth of training to get away with bjj principles)

|
Ok, as a generality. I'm not so bent out of shape over the WC video. You have a huge grappling following here, that have their own brand of expertise. It's for them to say, still a personal evaluation.

You need the simplest highest percentage movements that you can get away with. Because for the main that is all you are going to get to use.

|
I think also this is a very good advice from a practical standpoint. Yet the broader standpoint from TMA is to develop a highly versatile skill base that adapts to wide-ranging & unfolding situations as they arise. Such an approach will provide the highest percentage of success because it is based on principled skill, rather than on technical-dependant skill.
|
Good luck with that...

 

[drop bear]

You mean SOME MARTIAL ARTISTS. I have never struck a focus mitt. uck, uck, uck.

Successful martial artists. Which look. I am sure you are happy with what you do. But you cant compare yourself to a top tier fighter.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, as a generality. I'm not so bent out of shape over the WC video. You have a huge grappling following here, that have their own brand of expertise. It's for them to say, still a personal evaluation.

Ok. There are two ways to make grappling work.

1. Do the same thing the grapplers do.

2. Do your own thing and beat up a ton of good grapplers with it.

 

[yak sao]

Maybe I'm just a simpleton, but I believe that if you fight someone at their game, and they are better at it than you are, then they win.

This is why I don't see the value in learning how to grapple to be able to beat a grappler, any more than I see the value in learning how to box so that I can outbox my attacker should he be a boxer, or immerse myself in TKD so that I can outkick my attacker should he be a kicker.

Cherry picking your way through various fighting systems, gleaning various techniques here and there will not make you a complete fighter.
Picking up a few wrestling tricks will never give me the skills needed to out wrestle someone who is well versed in BJJ or catch wrestling, or maybe even someone who wrestled on their high school wrestling team.

The better approach for me has been to take my training in WT and pressure test it to make sure it is sound and will hold up under fire.
Agree with it or not, like it or not, I have used anti grappling concepts numerous times against all types of grapplers, ranging from high school wrestlers, to catch wrestlers to judoka to BJJ people to good ol' boys who could break me in half.
It's taken a lot of sweat, blood, trial and error, pulled muscles, wrenched shoulders and bruised ego but after all that, I can tell you that anti grappling concepts work.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe I'm just a simpleton, but I believe that if you fight someone at their game, and they are better at it than you are, then they win.

This is why I don't see the value in learning how to grapple to be able to beat a grappler, any more than I see the value in learning how to box so that I can outbox my attacker should he be a boxer, or immerse myself in TKD so that I can outkick my attacker should he be a kicker.

Cherry picking your way through various fighting systems, gleaning various techniques here and there will not make you a complete fighter.
Picking up a few wrestling tricks will never give me the skills needed to out wrestle someone who is well versed in BJJ or catch wrestling, or maybe even someone who wrestled on their high school wrestling team.

The better approach for me has been to take my training in WT and pressure test it to make sure it is sound and will hold up under fire.
Agree with it or not, like it or not, I have used anti grappling concepts numerous times against all types of grapplers, ranging from high school wrestlers, to catch wrestlers to judoka to BJJ people to good ol' boys who could break me in half.
It's taken a lot of sweat, blood, trial and error, pulled muscles, wrenched shoulders and bruised ego but after all that, I can tell you that anti grappling concepts work.

Which anti grappling concepts?

Otherwise we could be talking about anything.

 

[drop bear]

On the vein of the anti grapple. I am playing around with these concepts at the moment.

So instead of escaping top control and reguarding. I will go to turtle and stand up.

(ok this is still just grappling buy hopefully you get my point)

 

[drop bear]

And while I am here. This is the only bear hug defence I have found that actually works some of the time.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And while I am here. This is the only bear hug defence I have found that actually works some of the time.

|
Great Post Drop Bear!!!!
|
Someone getting a strong bear hug on you.... you're in big trouble.
|
2 Points from traditional karate which also have a self defense routine for the bear hug in the black-belt level curriculum:
|
Point A. you have to move fast, 'cause just as you pointed out in your teaching video, the opponent can easily manhandle you in several aspects.... Once he has that bear hug on; he's essentially in control.... it's imperative to change that dynamic right away....
|
Point B. The traditional karate answer uses a tactic that accomplished multiple SD objectives. Very K-Man bunkai-like. Maybe that's why the Okinawan Master's developed such....
|
I've been visiting a Tang Soo Do school; saw a TSD version of anti-bear hug SD technique--think it's being taught @ green belt levels....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Successful martial artists. Which look. I am sure you are happy with what you do. But you cant compare yourself to a top tier fighter.

|
Drop Bear, I'm guilty, Guilty, GUILTY.... OF NOT BEING 1-DIMENSIONAL.
|
What are you trying to do, recruit keyboard warrior and MMA-wanabees onto the MT forum???

 

[drop bear]

|
Great Post Drop Bear!!!!
|
Someone getting a strong bear hug on you.... you're in big trouble.
|
2 Points from traditional karate which also have a self defense routine for the bear hug in the black-belt level curriculum:
|
Point A. you have to move fast, 'cause just as you pointed out in your teaching video, the opponent can easily manhandle you in several aspects.... Once he has that bear hug on; he's essentially in control.... it's imperative to change that dynamic right away....
|
Point B. The traditional karate answer uses a tactic that accomplished multiple SD objectives. Very K-Man bunkai-like. Maybe that's why the Okinawan Master's developed such....
|
I've been visiting a Tang Soo Do school; saw a TSD version of anti-bear hug SD technique--think it's being taught @ green belt levels....

What methods are you referring to?

 

[drop bear]

|
Drop Bear, I'm guilty, Guilty, GUILTY.... OF NOT BEING 1-DIMENSIONAL.
|
What are you trying to do, recruit keyboard warrior and MMA-wanabees onto the MT forum???

No. Just putting your comment in context.

Pad work is hardly a mma only thing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Successful martial artists. Which look. I am sure you are happy with what you do. But you cant compare yourself to a top tier fighter.

|
Take Machida, everyone for the most part loves Machida. I love Machida.
|
Yet Machida has made extensive use of MMA-boxing training, including so-called expert boxer-MMA striker trainers routinely holding YES, FOCUS MITTS.
|
What's the huge strategic hole in Machida's karate-based MMA standup game? FAILURE TO STRIKE OPPONENTS & END FIGHTS CONSISTENTLY....
|
Machida went 5 rounds against Weidman and got the snot beat out of himself. Machida landed technically scoring-strikes on Rockhold then whiffed and got clocked with a hook (K-MAN, remember I cautioned about convential karate kumite vulnerable to the hook.), then got GNP'd, knocked loopy by Rockhold's elbow to the side of his head...!!!!
|
You can say Machida's use of focus mitts, and his 'expert' MMA trainors use of focus mitts is a huge endorsement of same. Yet massive fail when the fat-is-the-fire....
|
I train the PRINCIPLES of the traditional karate curriculum for RESULTS. I don't rely on EVERLAST, or BAD BOY, or CORNERMAN who trained me with FOCUS MITTS. Don't need visual aids or talking pieces when I go into kumite....

 

[ShotoNoob]

SOMEONE POST THE JAPANESE KARATE WORD FOR BOARDBREAKING:
|
The following post is Shotokan karate form[IMO], you know the Japanese karate so many complain about as "impractical."

|
So the lesson is presented in the traditional karate curriculum. Can the karate practitioner take the concept and study & learn & apply that lesson? For all it's crummy characteristics, you can't say Shotokan karate, the most widespread karate style out there, doesn'tpresent the lesson & working objective to developing the capability to disable your opponent decisively....
|
My august contribution to the ant-grappling T....
|
BTW: the purpose of the warmup and dry runs when Debbie does the front kick break, is to develop that little-talked about traditional karate mental discipline called KIME.
|
Take that Matt Thorton &Co. Take that, focus mitt user....
|
EDIT: Debbie's head on the punch break is proper form....

 

[ShotoNoob]

What methods are you referring to?

|
don't know if I should say. I mean these are taught in every dojo, now Tang Soo Do school I've attended. Not a big secret by any means...
|
Hey, Drop Bear, thanks for bringing in the wrestling demo vids. This is material that is not typically presented in a traditional karate classes and I for one found those vids very valuable....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Now I now the 'hard rollers' are wanting to pick on Debbie & the ProForce board. So, for the bigger boys, Shotokan karate has an anti-grappling answer as you duck you head in for that takedown:

|
The sought for dynamic of mind & body(whole) coming together as one under the aegis of KIME.

 

[ShotoNoob]

We see in some of the above Shotokan board-breakers samples of improper kihon physical form, and a bad habit of so much physicality presented in the Shotokan karate conventionally. It's not real bad, yet they lean the head forward from the neck, trying to physically force the body to break the board. Head & neck should remain upright & erect 'cause it is the body unity from the ground up that produces the power. The purpose of the head is to produce & direct KIME @ the target.
|
Why I never took BJJ.... good luck with that....