If we took away the philosophical or spiritual roots of a combat art... Wouldn't it actually end up being BETTER?

Holmejr

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Yes it is. Fighting is fighting.

What the hell do I care if my powerlifter friend is a scumbag or a noble pastor? It's the gym. We all only care about his strength. If he is civil and law-abiding and not harassing people, he can do whatever the heck he wants.

Assault, attack, combat, fighting, force... Call it what you want. Just no matter what you do, don't insert spirituality and philosophy into it. Philosophy is above that.
Okay Cobra Kai
 

hoshin1600

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My greatest passion in life is philosophy. Even my powerlifting takes a back burner to my development as a philosopher. Pseudo-science, pseudo-martial artist, pseudo-psychologist... Whatever man. As long as I don't get questioned about my philosopher ethos, I'd be at peace.

To argue further, there's nothing wrong with transplanting evolutionary biology to martial arts. Living creatures are the reason martial arts exist in the first place.

Is that supposed to be a spoof of how I am? I don't get it.

But anyway, honestly, there's not a lot of people in this world who knows philosophy better than me. Very rare.
I couldn't get through the entire thread. My impatience got the best of me. I had to quote this and respond.
Your philosophy and evolutionary whatever is severely lacking.
So yeah I'm calling you out on your philosopher ethos.
Go back and rethink your hypothesis because you clearly haven't done your homework and your own personal bias is directing your line of thought.
 

JowGaWolf

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First off exactly none of my heroes are Hollywood actors!! Real heros are probably closer than you think, you just need to identify them and hopefully they can become your mentors.

You are correct in that roleplay games are not accurate representations of self-defense or martial combat. You are also right in my opinion that Dr. Kano corrupted the martial arts by taking the focus off of combat. However Dr. Kano did make several important contributions to the effective application of force in combat or self-defense. Kano is a double edged figure regarding his contributions to martial arts.

With that said, I agree that the martial arts is not a spiritual path for me. With that said, if you plan on defending yourself efficiently you better deep dive on spiritual and moral beliefs and decision making prior to the event. Moral decision making is critical to effective use of force. A casual approach or focus on morality is a recipe for hesitation or regret when it comes to killing.
To be honest. The spiritual stuff is what helps people from losing their minds after going through something horrible or terrifying. I've seen a few people try to handle things without a spiritual focus and they told me how difficult it was. For many, things don't become manageable until they find a spiritual root to lean on. Unfortunately not all spiritual roots are of quality. There are some that are crazy and do more harm than good.
 
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JowGaWolf

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"

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MMA is more effective in the octagon or ring than traditional martial arts like Karate, Kung Fu, and Wing Chun. Karate has strong Japanese Buddhist roots, Kung Fu has Chinese Shaolin Buddhist roots, and Wing Chun is a spin-off of Kung Fu. I'm sure you're aware of the McDojo meme, and it is usually traditional martial arts that end up being seen as McDojos. There was a poster here who once said that BJJ is incredibly effective because it is an "honest" art that is willing to adapt. And you see, in order to adapt, you gotta leave your roots.

"

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I tend to lump all Eastern combat arts as coming from the same thing. The dragon god of the Asians, who taught the Asian people (me included, since I'm Asian) the combat techniques meant to destroy the enemies of the world. Or at least the woowoo people think so.

You being a martial arts enthusiast I'm sure have heard of legendary Kung Fu warriors beating powerful opponents with their fists. Those are all ********. Absolute, complete, ********. They are legends. That is all they are. We can argue all day and night about the history of this, this, and that, but at the end of the day, all Eastern combat arts with a touch of mysticism all came from the same thing. Hindu, Buddhist, and Daoist philosophies. Don't deny it.

All I'm suggesting here is to disrespect those woowoo roots and use their techniques for what they were meant for. Destruction, defense, and domination. Cut off your traditions. I know I did and it was the best thing I've ever done for myself.
I would be willing to bet that BJJ isn't void of spiritual roots. I'm pretty sure people bring that to class with them and it shapes the type of practioner they become.

For me, I didn't learn or obtain my spirituality through Kung fu but it does shape my kung fu.
 

Jared Traveler

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To be honest. The spiritual stuff is what helps people from losing their minds after going through something horrible or terrifying. I've seen a few people try to handle things without a spiritual focus and they told me how difficult it was. For many, things don't become manageable until they find a spiritual root to lean on. Unfortunately not all spiritual roots are of quality. There are some that are crazy and do more harm than good.
Meaning in adversity is extremely important, and spirituality is also a critical component to life. I just don't find this in martial arts practice. I do certainly think it's important in martial arts application.
 

mograph

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Okay, thanks. Just so long as nobody here believes that "survival of the fittest" is about the toughest dude's surviving. It actually refers to the survival (to the point of being able to reproduce) of those individuals who are best fitted to the environment in which they live.

Learning to control fire and working in teams might have been our evolutionary advantages: not being the toughest animals in the region. The skill with fire allowed us to survive in colder environments: it allowed us to be better fitted to those environments.

Regarding Evolutionary Psychology, you might find this article interesting:
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When people said that they train MA for

- cultural study,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- new world order,
- save the universe.
- ...

I truly don't know what they are talking about.

To me MA is as simple as:

- fist meet face.
- head meet ground.

fist_meets_face.jpg

head_into_ground.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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When people said that they train MA for

- cultural study,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- new world order,
- save the universe.
- ...

I truly don't know what they are talking about.

To me MA is as simple as:

- fist meet face.
- head meet ground.

View attachment 29602
View attachment 29603
There's more to it. Just like your example of the woman on the bus who was raped and no one helped.

When you learn to destroy, how will you use that ability? Will power corrupt you? Do you use your skills to help others? Will you teach others how to destroy? I don't mind teaching martial arts but I won't just teach anyone. Even soldiers have a moral code.
 

JowGaWolf

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I have a saying. " The more I learn how to fight using kung fu, the less it's about fighting." This is because there's more to it than fighting even when I'm fighting.

Fighting has a strange way of teaching us things that aren't about fighting.
 

Jared Traveler

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Nope. There is a vast difference in victimizing people through a criminal lifestyle, vs preforming well in military combat vs self-defense defense. Fighting is not simply fighting. Context always matters. That's why you don't go to an ex-con to learn military combat skills, but he is probably the guy to lean how to protect yourself in prison. Context matters. In the same way, a professional military ambush has little to do with effectively responding to a crack head with a knife, wanting your wallet.
Of course if you want to know how to be a great criminal don't ask an ex-con, he obviously got caught. The vast majority of criminals are not smart or particularly great at commiting crimes.

So often as a cop on a call someone would "inform" me that they had been to prison. 咫Like I was supposed to be impressed by that. I would always respond, "Why would you brag about that?" 尹 They would then realized how dumb that sounds. 朮
 

O'Malley

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I'm sure that there are many books/topics on it. Who wants to admit that what was passed on to them may be less effective than what it was originally.
Quite the contrary, claiming that aikido was designed from the outset to be ineffective makes for a convenient excuse for one's own technical flaws. It's actually a common rationalisation : "it doesn't work because it's the will of the old wise founder".

But however you look at them, facts are facts. Morihei Ueshiba was never a pacifist (the idea is so far from the truth that his son laughed to tears when he heard that in an interview) and never adapted neither his rhetoric nor his techniques to pacifist ideals (and this can be verified by first-hand testimonies, pictures and technical manuals from different periods). The technical changes were made by later generations (this has also been confirmed by testimonies, including by the current head of the Aikikai).
Let me ask this. You mentioned that you had studied in four different lineages of Aikido.
1) Did you learn pressure point striking before applying the techniques?
2) Did you learn the Dragon's head fist (Middle Knuckle Fist) to strike those vital points?
That's basic stuff and I did learn it but what is your point?
 

Gerry Seymour

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That's a common misconception. It has been demonstrated years ago that 1) Morihei Ueshiba was never a pacifist; 2) he was essentially a Daito Ryu instructor and did not make any significant technical changes. There are many books and articles on this topic.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is rooted in spiritual thought as the central idea of aiki is conceptualised as a manifestation of yin and yang but it's a different discussion.
It's my understanding (vaguely) that much of the pacifism seen in current philosophy was introduced by his son when he took over. Does that have some truth to it?

I have read that his approach became more philosophical after conversion to Omoto, but I don't know if I've ever read that from a first-hand source or scholar.
 

O'Malley

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It's my understanding (vaguely) that much of the pacifism seen in current philosophy was introduced by his son when he took over. Does that have some truth to it?
Yeah him and Koichi Tohei. Part of the reason was to find a niche for aikido ("the peaceful martial art") and to make it more accessible for mass training.
I have read that his approach became more philosophical after conversion to Omoto, but I don't know if I've ever read that from a first-hand source or scholar.
IIRC when he met Deguchi Onisaburo in 1919, he'd been training in Daito Ryu for four years and he really started teaching in the 20s-30s.
 

Jared Traveler

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Part of my job is to keep track of kidnapping incidents, so I came across this article today. Apparently this gym has a reputation for training criminals:
 

auntlisa1103

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Let me share an illustrative story from the dojang where I study.

There had been a sewer backup into the locker rooms. The cleanup was finished but the lockers in the mens locker room were not reinstalled onto the walls yet, they were freestanding toward the middle of the room. It was time for mid-class break, and GM asked that the men/boys leave the lockers alone during break.

We get back from break and GM shouts, Line up! Bali bali! He is pacing the front of the room, fuming. Before we even get lined up, he starts talking. The last thing I said before break was leave the lockers aline. So the first thing YOU ALL DO, is use them like a jungle gym!! The only adult male brown belt in the room answers No sir! GM shoots him The Look and says Uh.YES SIR!! He looks directly at 6 or 7 brown belts, all brothers, all between 8 and 15, and says, This is a Martial Art. Do you know what that means? The word martial means military. This is MILITARY SELF DEFENSE. Military personnel use these techniques in life or death situations. That means, you could seriously hurt or even kill someone with these techniques some day. If I cant trust you with simple instructions like leave the lockers alone, HOW can you expect me to trust you with a flying round to somebodys HEAD?! You are BROWN BELTS now. You have GOT to start USING your HEADS!

This is why we line up rank and file in class. This is why we answer yes sir/no maam. This is why we drill the five tenets and the student oath. This is not limited to teaching people to destroy each other. Its about helping build good humans.
 

drop bear

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Part of my job is to keep track of kidnapping incidents, so I came across this article today. Apparently this gym has a reputation for training criminals:
That is or was James te hunas gym I think. Pretty sure we fought a few of those guys.
 
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