If we took away the philosophical or spiritual roots of a combat art... Wouldn't it actually end up being BETTER?

frank raud

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In 35+ years in jiu jitsu/ judo, I have never had class time in philosophical teaching. It has always been lead by example. Some of those examples weren't good, but never been lectured on beliefs. let me qualify that, never discussed spiritual beliefs, philosophy only as it applies to the subject at hand.
 

Steve

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I also have a friend in social media who posts pictures of anime girls as his avatar. Does that make him gay?
No, but it would suggest that he likes anime, or at least that particular anime, and wants for other people to know that about him. Simply put, the avatar resonates with him in some way, and that's why he chose it. In the same way, your avatar resonates with you in some way. Trollface resonates with you... in some way. :)
 

Jared Traveler

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Sir, I never made the assertion that Krav Maga is the secret to Israeli battlefield success. I'm only talking about Jewish thugs surviving against Nazi thugs.

If you have ten battle-hardened thugs in some street here in Idaho where I live, and they are battle-hardened in the sense that they have been picking on lone nerds their entire lives, they are not good martial artists. Grand scale war has more to do with competent strategy and strength in numbers. I am only talking about individual prowess, and I do think, based on my limited knowledge, that Krav Maga teaches exactly that.

What kind of military officer would run a seminar teaching war strategies? That won't sell and it'll be boring as hell. Not to mention useless.

From what I've read in the past, Muay Thai itself was also created out of that kind of thing. A little kid was constantly beaten up by a grown man in the dark until he was forced to fight despite that ungodly disadvantage. Don't all good martial arts have a violent, alpha-dominated history? Who knows? Maybe I'll make it big in the Olympics, become a Judo master, and invent my own Judo-inspired martial art. The Asian RPG Hulk combat style...
Being a good thug and being assaultive and violent is not the same as being good at self-defense.
 
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Zombocalypse

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Are you suggesting that role playing games are not firmly based in reality?

They are, but they never hired people like me on their team. I would've helped them give more realism to the games.

When you think of a fist fighter (pugilist, boxer, whatever you want to call them), what goes on in your head in the absence of these games? You conjure images of a prime Mike Tyson or Ali, for sure. Vitor Belfort in MMA, for sure. Hook, jab, uppercut, et cetera. Strong men throwing powerful punches, executed with good technique.

Do you wanna know what Final Fantasy XIV did? They took inspiration from Hindu Yogi hermits and based the entire monk job on those people. That's disgusting. What an insult. One of the monk's move-list is called "The Forbidden Chakra", another is "the Lunar Nadi", and yet another is "Enlightenment". Bro what the hell. Please consider taking inspiration from real fighters, not hermits whose never felt the touch of a woman in their lives.

Much respect to Hindu Yogis but they haven't earned the title of fighter. Perhaps I will enjoy their company. I'm a philosopher after all. But I certainly wouldn't entrust them to teach me how to punch.

And I'm sure that when the development team of the game were thinking of the monk job, they didn't consider hiring brilliant philosophers like myself. Well there you go. An art representing inaccurate realities.
 
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Zombocalypse

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No, but it would suggest that he likes anime, or at least that particular anime, and wants for other people to know that about him. Simply put, the avatar resonates with him in some way, and that's why he chose it. In the same way, your avatar resonates with you in some way. Trollface resonates with you... in some way. :)

Well-played. Well-played, my friend.

Just remember I'm not a troll.
 
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Zombocalypse

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Being a good thug and being assaultive and violent is not the same as being good at self-defense.
Yes it is. Fighting is fighting.

What the hell do I care if my powerlifter friend is a scumbag or a noble pastor? It's the gym. We all only care about his strength. If he is civil and law-abiding and not harassing people, he can do whatever the heck he wants.

Assault, attack, combat, fighting, force... Call it what you want. Just no matter what you do, don't insert spirituality and philosophy into it. Philosophy is above that.
 
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Zombocalypse

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You arent defending philosophy (because it hasnt been attacked). You are all over the place trying to justify an Ill-considered stance you seem to believe is deep. Rather than giving a rational justification for your stance (the philosophical approach), you respond to strawmen, argue semantics of linguistic roots, and attack others.

You sound petulant.

Sir, I'm about to head to the gym, but if you can, please summarize the points of those who disagreed with me, preferably in bullets, and I will address them tonight or tomorrow. I'm not a memory savant. But if you can organize yours and everyone's thoughts, I'll properly argue against it.

As far as committing logical fallacies, that's not a sin. It's a technique to win verbal duels. You can't demonize me for doing them. As a matter of fact, I'll do it right now. Watch this.

You're weak and old. You can't fight. Therefore, your opinions about fighting are worthless.

It's nothing personal.
 

Jared Traveler

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Yes it is. Fighting is fighting.

What the hell do I care if my powerlifter friend is a scumbag or a noble pastor? It's the gym. We all only care about his strength. If he is civil and law-abiding and not harassing people, he can do whatever the heck he wants.

Assault, attack, combat, fighting, force... Call it what you want. Just no matter what you do, don't insert spirituality and philosophy into it. Philosophy is above that.
Nope. There is a vast difference in victimizing people through a criminal lifestyle, vs preforming well in military combat vs self-defense defense. Fighting is not simply fighting. Context always matters. That's why you don't go to an ex-con to learn military combat skills, but he is probably the guy to lean how to protect yourself in prison. Context matters. In the same way, a professional military ambush has little to do with effectively responding to a crack head with a knife, wanting your wallet.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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In 35+ years in jiu jitsu/ judo, I have never had class time in philosophical teaching. It has always been lead by example. Some of those examples weren't good, but never been lectured on beliefs.
Ive had a couple of instructors who talked a bit about their philosophy, specifically as it pertained to violence and protection. It didnt seem terribly well thought through, and wasnt given much time.

Personally, Ive spent some time talking philosophy with students, more for the intellectual exercise philosophy provides than to promote specific beliefs.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Sir, I'm about to head to the gym, but if you can, please summarize the points of those who disagreed with me, preferably in bullets, and I will address them tonight or tomorrow. I'm not a memory savant. But if you can organize yours and everyone's thoughts, I'll properly argue against it.

As far as committing logical fallacies, that's not a sin. It's a technique to win verbal duels. You can't demonize me for doing them. As a matter of fact, I'll do it right now. Watch this.

You're weak and old. You can't fight. Therefore, your opinions about fighting are worthless.

It's nothing personal.
Its not my job to collate the information for you. Go back and read what you apparently didnt give much attention to before replying.
 
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Zombocalypse

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Its not my job to collate the information for you. Go back and read what you apparently didnt give much attention to before replying.

Alright, sir. Sorry for not being a memory savant. If only I am as worthy of a philosopher as you are. I concede, Seymour Sense, Eh?
 

isshinryuronin

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I dont think it necessarily follows that not teaching a moral philosophy in class leads to immoral thuggishness.
True, not necessarily. But it wouldn't hurt to include guidelines and considerations to students on using their MA skills responsibly. And does an instructor have a responsibility to withhold instruction to those who seem likely, or show a proclivity, to misuse their MA skills?
 

drop bear

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And would your understanding if your martial art( s) been improved by not having those conversations? Imagine someone wanting to deny you the opportunity.

Philosophy and martial arts are really important.

Especially the Philosophy behind determining truth from fiction.
 

O'Malley

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You are probably correct on teaching the "founder's philosophy". But, that doesn't change the fact the Ueshiba himself changed the techniques to fall in line with his philosophy in the creation of Aikido. Look at his earlier art before he called it Aikido, it was VERY different. So, while you might not learn his philosophy separately, the ideas are imbedded into the overall philosophy and technique execution itself.
That's a common misconception. It has been demonstrated years ago that 1) Morihei Ueshiba was never a pacifist; 2) he was essentially a Daito Ryu instructor and did not make any significant technical changes. There are many books and articles on this topic.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is rooted in spiritual thought as the central idea of aiki is conceptualised as a manifestation of yin and yang but it's a different discussion.
 

punisher73

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That's a common misconception. It has been demonstrated years ago that 1) Morihei Ueshiba was never a pacifist; 2) he was essentially a Daito Ryu instructor and did not make any significant technical changes. There are many books and articles on this topic.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is rooted in spiritual thought as the central idea of aiki is conceptualised as a manifestation of yin and yang but it's a different discussion.
I'm sure that there are many books/topics on it. Who wants to admit that what was passed on to them may be less effective than what it was originally.

Let me ask this. You mentioned that you had studied in four different lineages of Aikido.
1) Did you learn pressure point striking before applying the techniques?
2) Did you learn the Dragon's head fist (Middle Knuckle Fist) to strike those vital points?
 

Cynik75

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... Aristotle was a scientist before science existed. He was called a "natural philosopher".
...
Absolutely not in modern meaning of science. Repeatable experiments and chcecking how things really are were absolutely not his way of scienting.
 

Holmejr

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With how to treat others and my sense of destiny, I'm a Christian. With everything else, I'm an evolutionary psychologist. This includes martial arts.
so Christianity is the foundation of your MA?
Oh okay cool.

I'm new to evolutionary psychology, actually. But still, I believe in it.
haha, Im waiting for your explanation how you justify believing in both evolutionary psychology and Christianity simultaneously. Some might call that cognitive dissonance. I do believe that people are created to worship, so worshiping is predictably found in virtually every society discovered. People weave their beliefs into virtually all they do, including the MAs. In one art its Chi and in another its the oracion prayer and for some its simply who trains the hardest. My faith doesnt really affect my MA. It does effect how I view creation, which includes man. So can you show secular mercy to your enemy? Ask the Koreans concerning the Japanese or the Jews concerning Hitler or the Chinese concerning Mao or the Russians or the
 

Jared Traveler

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so Christianity is the foundation of your MA?

haha, Im waiting for your explanation how you justify believing in both evolutionary psychology and Christianity simultaneously. Some might call that cognitive dissonance. I do believe that people are created to worship, so worshiping is predictably found in virtually every society discovered. People weave their beliefs into virtually all they do, including the MAs. In one art its Chi and in another its the oracion prayer and for some its simply who trains the hardest. My faith doesnt really affect my MA. It does effect how I view creation, which includes man. So can you show secular mercy to your enemy? Ask the Koreans concerning the Japanese or the Jews concerning Hitler or the Chinese concerning Mao or the Russians or the
Actually being a Christ follower is my foundation for both using force and post traumatic growth before and after critical incidents.
 

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