How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?

[JowGaWolf]

I think that is a bit of a false experiment. It suggests that it puts people under real fear or stress but takes away options like cracking the guy with a chair or something.

So given those choices. I would run away as well.

If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place. You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it." You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.

With Kung Fu techniques. The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence. It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it. It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough. When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.

 

[Blindside]

Just how popular is Arnis/Kali/Eskrima in the Philippines? To which sport in the US would you compare it in terms of popularity?

Technically it is the national sport and it gets taught in various schools and universities but beyond that not very popular. According to some Filipino instructors it is more respected as a martial art outside of the Philippines than it is within it.

 

[Flyingknee]

Technically it is the national sport and it gets taught in various schools and universities but beyond that not very popular. According to some Filipino instructors it is more respected as a martial art outside of the Philippines than it is within it.

And one last question (two actually) about it: What ages do the people that take part in Arnis competition tend to have...I mean is it common to see people in their 30's or 40's or even more?? I also wanted to ask if you happen to know how widespread Krabi-Krabong is in Thailand?

 

[Blindside]

And one last question (two actually) about it: What ages do the people that take part in Arnis competition tend to have...I mean is it common to see people in their 30's or 40's or even more?? I also wanted to ask if you happen to know how widespread Krabi-Krabong is in Thailand?

So there is the more popular sport version of arnis that is generally called WEKAF that is actually used in competition. In my opinion it looks generally ridiculous and doesn't translate the martial art well. But it looks like this:

Then those of us who aim to do the more realistic end of the martial arts there isn't a widespread sport format, but the most common might be something like this which is a point scoring system similar to fencing.

or

and you would see stuff like this for stick as well. But that is the formal competition sides of things, there is fortunately a growing pool of people and events where people are getting together and just fighting at a variety of levels. That might look like:

As for age for for the WEKAF competition I don't really know, I imagine it skews younger. But for what I do the average age is probably 35 with a lot of us coming from other martial arts prior to FMA. I know that the average age in my school is proabably mid-30s (I don't teach kids.)

 

[Flyingknee]

So there is the more popular sport version of arnis that is generally called WEKAF that is actually used in competition. In my opinion it looks generally ridiculous and doesn't translate the martial art well. But it looks like this:

Then those of us who aim to do the more realistic end of the martial arts there isn't a widespread sport format, but the most common might be something like this which is a point scoring system similar to fencing.

or

and you would see stuff like this for stick as well. But that is the formal competition sides of things, there is fortunately a growing pool of people and events where people are getting together and just fighting at a variety of levels. That might look like:

As for age for for the WEKAF competition I don't really know, I imagine it skews younger. But for what I do the average age is probably 35 with a lot of us coming from other martial arts prior to FMA. I know that the average age in my school is proabably mid-30s (I don't teach kids.)

Thanks.
So you don't know much about the situation of Krabi-Krabong in Thailand?

 

[Blindside]

Thanks.
So you don't know much about the situation of Krabi-Krabong in Thailand?

I know nothing.

 

[drop bear]

If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place. You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it." You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.

With Kung Fu techniques. The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence. It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it. It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough. When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.

Yeah. But he can't really towel up the instructor in that specific scenario because it would be pretty frowned upon.

Where he might if it was some random Joe in a dark alley.

So the instructor escalates. Of course the other guy is going to run.

So the conclusion the instructor makes there. I think is false.

 

[Oily Dragon]

If cracking the guy with a chair is your preferred option then, it's your preferred offer because you believe that it will produce the results that you want in that situation as a result you have less fear about that failing you, which is why you decide to pick up the chair in the first place. You trusted the "technique of picking up a chair and hitting someone with it." You don't know if it will produce the results that you want, but you believe in the validity enough to try it.

With Kung Fu techniques. The person must be able to use the techniques with that same believe and confidence. It's difficult to be all in on a kung fu technique like that, the first time you try to use it. It took one student 6 months before he got comfortable enough. When I teach, one of the biggest problems is that students bail out of a technique because they think doing the technique will get them hit.

Best of both worlds.

 

[Flyingknee]

Best of both worlds.

Savate used to entail chair fighting as well.

 

[Gyakuto]

Three years

 

[Flyingknee]

Three years

Rrrreally?

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

That really depends on what weapon you are talking about. A bow and arrow is different than a gun is different than sticks/knives.

I would guess though that for most weapons (and the ones I've done all found this to be true) is that it takes about the same amount of time to be proficient. And certain weapons go well together, while others don't. For instance, if you do hema or arnis, you'll find that they teach you a couple weapons together and principles translate. I probably wouldn't recommend learning olympic fencing and iaido at the same time though, if your goal is to become proficient in one quickly, as those have different principles and what you learn in one won't easily translate to the other.

I've been practicing and teaching my version of American Kenpo for fifty years. I'm still strong and fast. As for weapons, I rely on mostly practicing open hand techs. But, that said, I do practice with double sticks. I practice for reality. If needed, I could always grab something that could be used like a stick, for a weapon. I always practice some stick techniques (single stick also) after empty hand. Don't worry about proficiency. If you practice every week, in time you will be proficient. Good enough to defend myself is the way I look at my art. I don't try to be the best in the world, I just try to be the best I can be for myself.
Sifu

 

[Alan0354]

I did not read the whole thread, my experience is really depends on how hard and how many hours you train everyday. Say if you spend 1 hour a day 3 times a week, then just one weapon, you barely have enough time for one weapon and condition your body. BUT if you are dedicated and train like 2 hours and 5 days a week, then I would say you can train at least 2 or more.

The reason is from my experience ( not just MA and stick, but in life), a lot of them depend on muscle memory and training your nerve in response. It takes time to get that, it's not like you double the training a day and you can cut time in half. There comes a time of law of diminish return. You cannot push it.

Don't you ever notice if you train very hard and progress is slow, you take a week off and all of a sudden, you get better and actually can look at things in a different perspective and improve? Key is knowing when is enough is enough. Particular if you are old like me, over train means injuries. Train wise, not too hard.

I do weight training also, it is very common knowledge that if you are a serious weight lifter, you do one part of the body ONCE A WEEK. You give the body part plenty of time to recover. Like you do 5 days a week, you only spend one day in chest like bench press, flies and all, work hard, but that's it for the week, then next day, you do say legs, then bicep and tricep etc. etc. You do same body part everyday, you end up injure yourself.

I am NOT a MA or weapon expert by a long shot, but I do training ( mix in MA and weight training, MA more for aerobics) average 3 hours a week in the last 36 years. Believe me, I have my share of injuries. Neck, Back, knee, wrist, even foot. It doesn't get better as you age. Lately because of picking up cane fighting, I am up to 7 hours a week. My neck hurts, my right knee hurts and my carpal tunnel of my right hand gets worst...................

JMHO

 

[isshinryuronin]

Don't worry about proficiency. If you practice every week, in time you will be proficient. Good enough to defend myself is the way I look at my art.

Perhaps you did not express your thought well, but I take exception with this statement. Just because one can play a recognizable tune on an instrument does not mean one is a musical artist, or being able to brush stroke a readable ideograph make one a calligrapher. Being just "good enough" is not part of my definition of following an "art." It is contrary to the idea of art; certainly martial art.

The idea of constant striving for excellence, beyond being just "good enough," is one of the basic imperatives of MA. To use those words means there is an end to the journey - "I'm good enough so I can stop further development." If being "good enough" was enough, I'd have quit my MA practice 30 years ago. But I'm still working along the endless path to the unreachable goal.

Sifu

Call me picky, but it is considered bad form (at least in TMA) to refer to oneself with a title such as this.

Your MA background in how you were taught may have been different from others, but reconsider these two points. Even the elderly (I'm soon to be 70) should be open to new ways of looking at things.

 

[ap Oweyn]

How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?​

And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?

​

I think it's really going to come down to how you define proficiency. And I know that I'm not the first to say that in this thread. Likely, I won't be the last. But I'm not trying to be pithy. You have to establish for yourself a metric by which you'll judge proficiency. Or find one that's been established that you can accept.

At the end of the day, that's all we have. Whether it's a belt system, a competition format, etc., all we can really do is identify a metric by which to judge our work.

I went from taekwondo to Filipino martial arts personally. I went into a system that featured a belt system and worked my way through it. I competed in the WEKAF format that took a bit of a beating up thread. I earned a rank with a colour and a name (Lakan Guro). I studied other styles of FMA and incorporated them into my practice. I studied other related arts (e.g., Western fencing, JKD, etc.). But I have never, for all that, landed on a satisfactory definition of proficiency. Just a shifting and evolving series of metrics with which I'm comfortable, and the priorities that guide them.

What do I mean by the priorities? Well, when I was younger, I probably felt more confident of my chances in a knife fight. I was almost certainly wrong, but I felt more confident. Now, I view that weapons training as a personal challenge rather than a realistic preparation. And, ironically, in doing so, I might be more likely never to get stabbed with a knife.

How many weapons you train with at once depends as well. In FMA, there are certain baseline mechanics that enjoy commonality regardless of the weapon. (Yeah, edged and blunt weapons are fundamentally different and that's valid.) So in FMA, it's not unusual to learn stick along side knife, for instance. It's not uncommon to apply the same principles to the stick and to the machete, even though there are other principles that won't carry from edged to blunt and vice versa. Regardless of all that, the number of weapons you can effectively train is going to be dependent on the level of crossover. To what extent are you training staff concepts even as you're actually training stick techniques?

Some styles pointedly have very different approaches from one weapon to another. The jian in Chinese martial arts is very different from the dao (broad sword). Intentionally so. So the crossover might be less than in FMA, where commonality in principles is a stated priority.

That same logic holds when you think about going from empty hand to weapons. A kerambit has specialized applications, but at the same time, if you were a strong boxer, you'd be really dangerous with a kerambit in each hand. But put a polearm in your hands, and you might be as big a danger to yourself as anyone else. It just depends.

You set metrics for yourself. But your level of training and experience will inform your metrics. As will your priorities. For me, learning a form (kata, sayaw, whatever) isn't going to make me feel proficient. I'm going to want to know about application. Then you need a sparring format of some sort. And if you master that, there's always the argument about rules not reflecting reality. So how far are you prepared to go in determining proficiency? Hopefully not to the logical extreme.

So explore your priorities, learn your lessons, establish your metrics, and test yourself. That's all there is, really.

 

[Buka]

Oh and you're back. Keep your rude comments to yourself.

I’m not sure how you’re interpreting
those comments as rude.

I’m sure they were not meant that way.

 

[Flyingknee]

I’m not sure how you’re interpreting
those comments as rude.

I’m sure they were not meant that way.

Vom.

 

[Hyoho]

And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?

Speaking as the head of one Japanese school, licence holder of another and a kodansha in other weapon arts and professional instructor in Japan: Each weapon has it's own specifics and methods of use and body movement. To learn one weapon is like starting another art. There are only certain similarities. But if anything the problem is one weapon art bleeding into the other one as you try to progress. Will you ever be any good at it? Like hand to hand there are those that have natural ability and those that do it because they love it. Nothing at all wrong with the latter. We all should practice as a group and support each other.

 

[Hyoho]

Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school. As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.

In Japan belts have zero to do with weapons when it comes to classical schools. Associations award belts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Some styles pointedly have very different approaches from one weapon to another. The jian in Chinese martial arts is very different from the dao (broad sword). Intentionally so. So the crossover might be less than in FMA, where commonality in principles is a stated priority.

I’m gonna say yes and no and kinda, to this. The different weapons have different approaches, different techniques, etc., but with commonalities. The better instruction that I have received, In the Chinese methods, focuses on the principles that power the techniques which makes it possible to recognize the commonalities.