Easy to Carry, Easy to Use Self Defense Weapons

Dirty Dog

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Alright. In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated,
Um... I'm doing what?
you’re speaking with authority on something you’ve already said you don’t use.
I am not a chef. I made that clear. I do use knives. I see how other people use them. And I've been making blades for some 20 years. So I do think I have some idea what works and what doesn't, or what might be problematic. If you think any point I've made has been incorrect, I'm happy to hear why. I've even asked you specific questions. In the post that apparently pushed your buttons, all I did was try to answer questions you asked.
 

tim po

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I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me." I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations. On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems. It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."

WWII Combatives:

full



Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:
full


Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:
View attachment 27770

Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip. The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."

full


Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"
full


The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.
I agree on this point where a dagger is concerned, i would still hold it thumb-over, but that is what i am used to. you. i typically do not expect a dagger to be chosen for self-defense because they are illegal to carry in most places. but again, my response was to the original context of this thread, not directed at people who train in specific knife arts.
 

tim po

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To be fair, what you wrote was:
"I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife." Which seems pretty close to "no one can use a knife effectively without training."


There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.
no, it actually doesn't, unless that is how you already wanted to read into it. note the word' probably' . again, context. it does matter.
 

lklawson

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I agree on this point where a dagger is concerned, i would still hold it thumb-over, but that is what i am used to. you. i typically do not expect a dagger to be chosen for self-defense because they are illegal to carry in most places. but again, my response was to the original context of this thread, not directed at people who train in specific knife arts.
Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers. The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger. I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.

"Modified Saber/Pinch Grip
The Modified Saber, sometimes called the Foil or Pinch Grip, places the thumb on the side of the blade, orienting the blade horizontally in the hand, with the edge traditionally facing left. A very secure grip with small knives, especially ones with short handles, the pinching force between the thumb and index finger isolates any movement of the blade when applying force to the edge. Inward slashing and especially thrusting are facilitated with this grip, though backhand slashing is limited. Perhaps this grip’s strongest attribute is the ability it offers the user to pick up and strongly thrust any small knife or pointed object."

delica-knife-grip.jpg



"Forward Knife Grip Technique: Modified Saber
A grip is considered forward when the blade opposes the little finger. The modified saber grip technique is the same as a hammer grip, but in the modified saber grip, the thumb is placed on the side of the blade. The advantage here is the same as the hammer, in that the grip is very strong, and it is stronger than the traditional saber grip technique as more of the hand (the thumb) is actually wrapped around the knife generally. The modified saber grip also forces the hand to naturally orient the knife in a horizontal or slashing position if the hand is held in traditional square-fist orientation: the strongest, locked wrist punching position of martial arts. "

KnifeGripModifiedSaber.jpg
 

drop bear

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Hey, I don't care one way or the other on this argument, but anyone who has ever been taught proper knife skills for a kitchen does NOT hold the knife this way. In fact, I've never even heard of someone putting their thumb on the spine of a chef's knife and honestly can't visualize what that would even look like.

I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below. If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.

The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window. If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.

View attachment 27760

So, I guess, on the one hand, we can say that some untrained people don't know how to properly hold a chef's knife. But then, that would suggest that a person who has good knife skills in a kitchen isn't entirely untrained....

I think the whole point is being missed. The skill lies in being able to stab the guy without letting him stab, punch, kick or shoot you.

So trained is definitely better.

But I don't think grips or technique are much of an indication of someone's ability to do that.

But knife work, due to the level of bullshido that surrounds it. Tends towards these discussions.
 

Steve

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Um... I'm doing what?

I am not a chef. I made that clear. I do use knives. I see how other people use them. And I've been making blades for some 20 years. So I do think I have some idea what works and what doesn't, or what might be problematic. If you think any point I've made has been incorrect, I'm happy to hear why. I've even asked you specific questions. In the post that apparently pushed your buttons, all I did was try to answer questions you asked.
I don't know that it's so much you're incorrect, as much as it's so subjective. Better isn't objective... it's a personal preference where there are a lot of really good knives, and they all perform really well over many, many years. And ultimately, given enough time and use, they all wear out. As I said before, the full bolster is really common in Western style chef's knives. I've had one for 15 years (a well worn Wusthof classic, from the same line you posted). I've sharpened it more times than I can remember, and use it just about every day. It has a full bolster and still functions just fine. Holds a great edge, too.

A lot of companies, both Japanese and German, are creating hybrid knives like the one you shared. Those are great knives, too. A lot of people really like them. I don't have one, and don't plan to buy one, but if I was given one as a gift I would love it.

I have a Japanese style chef's knife that has a half bolster, like the one you shared above. It's pretty cool, but not my favorite. I don't use it very often. The bolster has nothing to do with that, though. I find the knife to be too light, and I don't like the shape of the handle. It's super sharp, but I cut a lot of meat, and I'm much more confident that the Wusthof will handle chicken bones and such without damage than this super expensive, Japanese chef's knife. I will pull it out when I'm doing veggies, sometimes.

My point is, if there is a point to all of this I guess, if you don't cook, you might think it's a deal of some kind whether there's a full bolster or not. And maybe it is to some cooks. But in my practical experience, I don't think the bolster matters much at all. Or maybe more accurately, if you're talking to people who are considering upgrading to a "real" chef's knife, that's not the big deal. If someone were to ask me about one knife over another, I'd encourage them to find a way to hold both of them in their hands, and consider the weight of the knife (some like the lighter Asian style knives, and some like the heavier Western/German style), the edge geometry, the construction of the handle, and the size/length of the blade. In general, I'd say get the longest blade you're comfortable using and feel like you have good control with.

As for hollow grinds, if you want a bunch of knives, sure. It might help you a little with potatoes. Personally, I have two knives that I use regularly, and the rest I could take or leave. I could get by with just my 8" Wusthof classic chef's knife and my cheap, but sharp bread knife that was "stamped" (or laser cut or who knows... not forged).

So, all of that said, if you are offering to make me a chef's knife with a half bolster, I would love it. DM me and I'll give you my address where to send it. I prefer an 8" blade, but would be very pleased with a 9 or 10" blade, too. And I prefer a western style handle to the rounded Asian/Japanese style. :)
 

lklawson

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Steve

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I think the whole point is being missed. The skill lies in being able to stab the guy without letting him stab, punch, kick or shoot you.

So trained is definitely better.

But I don't think grips or technique are much of an indication of someone's ability to do that.

But knife work, due to the level of bullshido that surrounds it. Tends towards these discussions.
I'm trying to stay out of that entire discussion. FWIW, I think someone who has never held a knife could stab someone... and someone who has trained to stab someone could probably do it a little better.

I do know that if you hold a knife correctly, you can chop vegetables more efficiently.
 

tim po

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Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers. The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger. I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.

"Modified Saber/Pinch Grip
The Modified Saber, sometimes called the Foil or Pinch Grip, places the thumb on the side of the blade, orienting the blade horizontally in the hand, with the edge traditionally facing left. A very secure grip with small knives, especially ones with short handles, the pinching force between the thumb and index finger isolates any movement of the blade when applying force to the edge. Inward slashing and especially thrusting are facilitated with this grip, though backhand slashing is limited. Perhaps this grip’s strongest attribute is the ability it offers the user to pick up and strongly thrust any small knife or pointed object."

View attachment 27776


"Forward Knife Grip Technique: Modified Saber
A grip is considered forward when the blade opposes the little finger. The modified saber grip technique is the same as a hammer grip, but in the modified saber grip, the thumb is placed on the side of the blade. The advantage here is the same as the hammer, in that the grip is very strong, and it is stronger than the traditional saber grip technique as more of the hand (the thumb) is actually wrapped around the knife generally. The modified saber grip also forces the hand to naturally orient the knife in a horizontal or slashing position if the hand is held in traditional square-fist orientation: the strongest, locked wrist punching position of martial arts. "

View attachment 27775
hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way. my advice for newbies will always be to hold that knife as tightly and dearly as your hold your life. i am done discussing this point. thank you all for your thoughtful contributions.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don't know that it's so much you're incorrect, as much as it's so subjective. Better isn't objective... it's a personal preference where there are a lot of really good knives, and they all perform really well over many, many years. And ultimately, given enough time and use, they all wear out. As I said before, the full bolster is really common in Western style chef's knives. I've had one for 15 years (a well worn Wusthof classic, from the same line you posted). I've sharpened it more times than I can remember, and use it just about every day. It has a full bolster and still functions just fine. Holds a great edge, too.
I agree it's very subjective, and I think I explicitly stated that in at least one post. It's entirely possible that my concern about the bolster only arises because I sharpen on a belt. Which removes more metal than hand sharpening.
The grind I was talking about isn't actually a hollow grind in the classic sense, it's a combination grind. The idea makes sense to me, and I've heard good things, but as I said I've not yet done one so it's hearsay. The crossection is like this:
1639696296730.png

So the actual edge is still the classic flat grind.

But all that aside, the part of your post that confused me was this:
Alright. In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated,
I can't recall doing this. Can you enlighten me?
 

Steve

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I agree it's very subjective, and I think I explicitly stated that in at least one post. It's entirely possible that my concern about the bolster only arises because I sharpen on a belt. Which removes more metal than hand sharpening.
The grind I was talking about isn't actually a hollow grind in the classic sense, it's a combination grind. The idea makes sense to me, and I've heard good things, but as I said I've not yet done one so it's hearsay. The crossection is like this:
View attachment 27779
So the actual edge is still the classic flat grind.

I understand. If you like it the dimples, by all means, get that. As I said, it will help you with the potatoes, if you’re inclined to have a bunch of knives. It’s one of those things that sells more knives.

As for the rest, If we agree that it’s subjective, and you don’t cook, I think I’m good. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

If you make a good knife and want to make me a knife, I’m all for it. Put the dimples in and maybe I’ll see the light. I would sincerely appreciate the gift. Otherwise, I don’t think your “better” is actually better. It’s just different. :)

But all that aside, the part of your post that confused me was this:

I can't recall doing this. Can you enlighten me?
You guys are all having a go at @tim po , and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use. I think it’s kind of hypocritical. That’s it. I’ve moved on. If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.
 

geezer

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Be aware of losing the cane by accident. It happens to the best. One of the expert here Lamont Glass ( aka Blindside here) even showed he lost his cane in the match. Look at 6:17 here:
That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was inspired. Spontaneous. Beautiful. :D
 

Alan0354

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That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was inspired. Spontaneous. Beautiful. :D
I know, it's impressive how fast he reacted and got the cane back.

It is very common to lose the stick in fighting, anyone that doesn't think so must not been doing stick fight and talk only. I used to lose my stick because I accidentally hit the furniture in the middle of the swing. Also when I expect to hit something and missed. That can be deadly in self defense situation.

Have I been practicing hit and miss with the deflated and weighted speed bag. It doesn't bounce in a predictable way the normal speedbag does. To make it more difficult, I aim at the bottom tip of the thing to increase the chance of missing. So 50% of the time I swing, I miss. I get used to missing and still holding onto the cane.

I have not been losing the cane for months during exercise already, but I still use a loop around my wrist as insurance. When I walk out on the street, the loop is always around my wrist of my left hand that carry the cane. Ha ha, I make it a point I don't use the cane to walk. I hold it but the tip never even touch the ground. More like a polite way to say " Don't tread on me!!"
 

lklawson

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hold the knife however you want,
How I want? I like what Dwight called "The Universal Grip." I don't much favor the foil grip. But, even so, it is a 100% valid method.

if you have trained to use it that way.
Or of it works. "If you have trained to use it that way" doesn't have to have anything to do with it. Does it work for you? Then use it.


my advice for newbies will always be to hold that knife as tightly and dearly as your hold your life.
Which is also perfectly valid and a common instruction, often favored by WWII Combatives instructors who, ims, sometimes referred to it as "the convulsive grip."

The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.
 

lklawson

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You guys are all having a go at @tim po ,
Me as much as anyone else. But I'm not "dumping on" him nor "having a go." I specifically took exception to his claim that a thumb-on-the-flat-of-the-knife grip was, as he wrote, quoting him, "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong. I've given at least 9 different, unique, examples proving that the technique is both valid and common. Nevertheless, he has yet to admit the validity. The closest I've gotten to a mea culpa is when he wrote, "hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way."

I also took exception to his claim, again quoting, "I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife."

And then again to his assertion of, "googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that."

When a user, new or otherwise, writes things that are just flat wrong, and easily demonstrated so, then it's not particularly unusual for someone to correct those statements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Steve

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Me as much as anyone else. But I'm not "dumping on" him nor "having a go." I specifically took exception to his claim that a thumb-on-the-flat-of-the-knife grip was, as he wrote, quoting him, "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong. I've given at least 9 different, unique, examples proving that the technique is both valid and common. Nevertheless, he has yet to admit the validity. The closest I've gotten to a mea culpa is when he wrote, "hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way."

I also took exception to his claim, again quoting, "I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife."

And then again to his assertion of, "googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that."

When a user, new or otherwise, writes things that are just flat wrong, and easily demonstrated so, then it's not particularly unusual for someone to correct those statements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Sounds good. I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong. Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.

For what it's worth, it was the disconnect between the comments about the user's education and general knowledge (not the claims themselves), and then DD saying (paraphrasing), "I don't cook, but I'm going to tell you at length why that very common and popular design for a chef's knife is a bad design for cooks." I'm sure he thought he was being really helpful. As I said, I'm game to help figure out if he's right or not. I cook and bake all the time. Since he doesn't cook, I'm more than happy to give him some practical feedback, if he's interested in making a knife for me. I'd treasure the gift.

Now, I hope that explains things well enough. If @Dirty Dog wants to know where to send that knife, or there is more to discuss, I recommend it not be done on the public forum. :)
 

Dirty Dog

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I understand. If you like it the dimples, by all means, get that. As I said, it will help you with the potatoes, if you’re inclined to have a bunch of knives. It’s one of those things that sells more knives.
I've never ground in dimples either. I merely pointed out why lots of chefs knives have them. The (relatively few) chefs knives I have made have been the classic flat grind from spine to edge. I also do not sell my knives. I've given quite a few to family and friends, or donated them as prizes.
You guys are all having a go at @tim po ,
"You guys"? I don't believe I have done any such thing. I am to blame for anything anyone posts that you disagree with?
and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use. I think it’s kind of hypocritical. That’s it. I’ve moved on. If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.
I know blade making.
I have never built a turbo engine (I prefer superchargers) but that doesn't mean I cannot discuss the pros and cons of turbos.
You might also (or apparently not) note that the only authoritative statements I've made have been on the technical details of blademaking. Other comments have been clearly qualified as being opinion or hearsay.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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You guys are all having a go at @tim po , and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use. I think it’s kind of hypocritical. That’s it. I’ve moved on. If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.
Purely for context, I looked into it out of curiosity, and Dirty Dog's first post in this thread (since Tim Po came), was the one directed to you asking about knives. It seems to be lawson/frank that are arguing with him. I checked his other thread in case I was missing something, and there's a lot of people that commented there but dirty dog isn't one.

My guess is you got his posts mixed up with Lawson's-I've done that before since they've got a similar writing style and have similar-ish profile pictures.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Sounds good. I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong. Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.

For what it's worth, it was the disconnect between the comments about the user's education and general knowledge (not the claims themselves), and then DD saying (paraphrasing), "I don't cook, but I'm going to tell you at length why that very common and popular design for a chef's knife is a bad design for cooks." I'm sure he thought he was being really helpful. As I said, I'm game to help figure out if he's right or not. I cook and bake all the time. Since he doesn't cook, I'm more than happy to give him some practical feedback, if he's interested in making a knife for me. I'd treasure the gift.

Now, I hope that explains things well enough. If @Dirty Dog wants to know where to send that knife, or there is more to discuss, I recommend it not be done on the public forum. :)
Oops, read this after I went through and responded to your other post. Oh well, kept me a bit busy during my lunch.
 
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