How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?

[JowGaWolf]

Without prior MA experience, I think weapons are harder to learn than empty hand, since many empty hand TMA concepts and techniques lend themselves to weapons. With this experience, you have a head start.

Also trusting the application is very difficult to do as well. The fear that it may not work screws up a lot of people. I could teach Jow Ga for free, show that it works, but when it comes to the student's turn to try and use it, There's going to be that fear, and it's a hard one to get over. With weapons, it's going to be even more difficult to master that fear.

If a person is trying to master that fear without a foundation then yeah it's going to be really difficult to learn a weapon in terms of application and functional use.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course it is. We should add a bit of code so any "how long will it take" question is auto-answered.

it'll be the best auto response ever

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Of course it is. We should add a bit of code so any "how long will it take" question is auto-answered.

Also, the assumption that black belt = mastery.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And as I'm sure many here have experienced, none of these last a month in actual training. It's not the fantasy they imagined, so they move on.

 

[Blindside]

I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular


By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).

As a FMA practitioner that would pretty much be standard training weapons for us. If you are referring specifically to the French martial art of canne du combat and not a similarly sized stick, I can't help you there.

Anyway, those weapons are pretty much what we focus on and I have taken reasonably talented students from 0 to full contact stickfighting (and doing so well) in 5ish years. I had one talented student who forced me to change my game to deal with him in less than three years and I don't suck at stickfighting. But much of this will depend on having a school available for you to train at and whether or not they are a fighting school, there are plenty of FMA schools that will bang sticks and do cool drills and don't produce fighters. Outside of testing yourself in fighting I have no metric for what "proficient" means.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also, the assumption that black belt = mastery.

Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school. As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not to take away any proud feeling for reaching a specific belt rank in a school. As someone who didn't train under a belt system, belts ranks are just so unreliable that I don't factor them. The belt rank system has been greatly exploited.

They have their uses. But magical they are not.

 

[Flyingknee]

And as I'm sure many here have experienced, none of these last a month in actual training. It's not the fantasy they imagined, so they move on.

Oh and you're back. Keep your rude comments to yourself.

 

[Blindside]

How many weapons do practitioners of Arnis, Silat, Krabi Krabong and so forth actually study at a time? Do they end up specialising in one or two?

This again is dependent on style, some Filipino martial art styles are literally just a stick or just a short staff or just a knife, others like mine are very broad. The overall curriculum contains; single stick/machete, single knife, double stick/machete, double knife, staff/spear, and flexible weapons. Personally I spend my time on stick/machete, knife, double stick/machete, and staff/spear. I can do and teach the rest but I am not good at them and don't have much intersest. Our core curriculum starts with single stick/machete and knife and bulds from there so everyone has those two to a good level, then double sticks are taught, and then the remainder.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By proficient I meant advanced/quite advanced (I probably should've just said so).

Okay, now we need to define “advanced.” What counts for advanced in my curriculum is different from what they expect in the one Bill’s trained in. And that only scratches the surface of how much that definition will vary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At what point did you gain a black belt? How many hours per week had you been training before that?


I don't see why you felt the need to use the free lunch idiom. I'm not under the impression that this could be achieved quickly nor have I written anything that would reasonably make you think otherwise. I guess you just didn't want to waste an opportunity to be moralistic.

You seem to have interpreted Bill’s post as snarky. I don’t think it was. He was sharing his experience and how he views “advanced”.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Go find a club that fights with sticks, pretty much.

Same as any skill. You have to do a thing.

For us unarmed. We can put a dedicated person in to a full contact fight in about 3 months. At which point they have a usable skill.

Advanced after that stage depends on the other guy.

For folks not familiar, the gym DB trains at had a pretty intense 12-week program for first fight prep. That 3 month point isn’t something you can achieve on 3-6 hours a week. Have to put in big work and stay committed.

 

[frank raud]

I had in mind canes (particularly canne du combat) and knives in particular.

As you are asking about an obscure form of martial arts, the first question would be is there a school near you? Second question is what do they say about how long it takes to be proficient? In 38 years of training martial arts, I've seen a demonstration of canne de combat once.

Knives? Do you consider proficient to be able to use one against an unarmed opponent? Give me five minutes, I will show you one grip, explain pointy end goes in other guy, repeat as necessary. Do you consider proficient to be able to use a knife to defend against someone else armed with a knife? Suddenly things become much more complicated. What if they have two knives and know how to use them? A simple question with no real answer. Learning a weapon is a skill to develop, and then a skill to maintain. If as an example, you can be competent at at an art in 3 or 5 years, if you stop training, don't expect that after a 10 year period, you can pick up where you left off. Your skill level and timing will have dropped dramatically. Find something you want to practice, and practice. How long it takes to get good is irrelevant.

 

[Flyingknee]

You seem to have interpreted Bill’s post as snarky. I don’t think it was. He was sharing his experience and how he views “advanced”.

In that case you should read the argument I made one more time...and that guy's post as well.

 

[Flyingknee]

This again is dependent on style, some Filipino martial art styles are literally just a stick or just a short staff or just a knife, others like mine are very broad. The overall curriculum contains; single stick/machete, single knife, double stick/machete, double knife, staff/spear, and flexible weapons. Personally I spend my time on stick/machete, knife, double stick/machete, and staff/spear. I can do and teach the rest but I am not good at them and don't have much intersest. Our core curriculum starts with single stick/machete and knife and bulds from there so everyone has those two to a good level, then double sticks are taught, and then the remainder.

And what is the style you practice called?

 

[drop bear]

Also trusting the application is very difficult to do as well. The fear that it may not work screws up a lot of people. I could teach Jow Ga for free, show that it works, but when it comes to the student's turn to try and use it, There's going to be that fear, and it's a hard one to get over. With weapons, it's going to be even more difficult to master that fear.

If a person is trying to master that fear without a foundation then yeah it's going to be really difficult to learn a weapon in terms of application and functional use.

I think that is a bit of a false experiment. It suggests that it puts people under real fear or stress but takes away options like cracking the guy with a chair or something.

So given those choices. I would run away as well.

 

[Blindside]

And what is the style you practice called?

Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

PTK is one of the more popular FMA systems in the world, its growth in the past 20 years is fairly ridiculous.

Attaching an overly dramatic hype video because it features my instructor and one of my training partners.

 

[Flyingknee]

Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

PTK is one of the more popular FMA systems in the world, its growth in the past 20 years is fairly ridiculous.

Attaching an overly dramatic hype video because it features my instructor and one of my training partners.

Can you paint me a picture how much it has grown in the last 20 years then? And what do you think draws people to this style in particular?

 

[Blindside]

Can you paint me a picture how much it has grown in the last 20 years then? And what do you think draws people to this style in particular?

Part of the popularity has been driven becasue the head of the system has spent the past 30 years constantly touring and giving seminars. Aside from being a really good martial artist he is very charismatic and has a gift of showmanship. When I started in this art in 2004 there was only one or two instructors on the west coast of the United States, now there are 12 in my state from 4 different lineages. It was an art that was largely in the Philippines and the US and now has expanded to many countries in Europe and Asia. Mind you that is close to the growth of say BJJ in that time period but it is still pretty impressive.

Part of the attraction is the functional end of the sytem, GT Gaje (Grand Tuhon, think grandmaster, same difference) has kept a focus on it being a fighting art and it not becoming something that sticks black belts on 10 year olds. It has been widely marketed to police and military as practical for their needs and for better or worse some people find that "badass" affiliation appealing. To me it is appealing because at its core it offers a system that moves between different weapon platforms with relative ease.

 

[Flyingknee]

Part of the popularity has been driven becasue the head of the system has spent the past 30 years constantly touring and giving seminars. Aside from being a really good martial artist he is very charismatic and has a gift of showmanship. When I started in this art in 2004 there was only one or two instructors on the west coast of the United States, now there are 12 in my state from 4 different lineages. It was an art that was largely in the Philippines and the US and now has expanded to many countries in Europe and Asia. Mind you that is close to the growth of say BJJ in that time period but it is still pretty impressive.

Part of the attraction is the functional end of the sytem, GT Gaje (Grand Tuhon, think grandmaster, same difference) has kept a focus on it being a fighting art and it not becoming something that sticks black belts on 10 year olds. It has been widely marketed to police and military as practical for their needs and for better or worse some people find that "badass" affiliation appealing. To me it is appealing because at its core it offers a system that moves between different weapon platforms with relative ease.

Just how popular is Arnis/Kali/Eskrima in the Philippines? To which sport in the US would you compare it in terms of popularity?