How hard is it to become proficient in weapons based martial arts compared to physical fighting ones?

[JowGaWolf]

In Japan belts have zero to do with weapons when it comes to classical schools. Associations award belts.

I like it better this way. One day someone asked me how can I tell who the senior students were. I grinned and said "Easy. The ones who have been here the longest are usually the ones who do the best and appear to know what they are doing. Those who have only been there for a short time still have trouble." I thought it was a strange question

It's like everything else. The skill at which people perform says a lot about their training and their ability. The advanced student will never look like the beginner student. There's no way to fool people when it comes to showing skill level.

Experienced fighters never look nor move like beginner fighters.
Experiences forms /kata performers never look like beginner performers
Experienced weapon's user never move or look like beginners

To me it's clear but to many Americans this is confusing and a belt is needed to tell who is better and more skilled. That's why stuff like this happens. Even though he's pretending to be a beginner. There are things that should be hints that make people question that he's a beginner even before they spar (roll).

I think belts often make people pay attention to the wrong thing instead of being observant about the movement of the person in front. But that's just me. I know that for some belts are a good thing. I can accept that. Pros and Cons to everything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Vom.

Vom?

 

[ap Oweyn]

I’m gonna say yes and no and kinda, to this. The different weapons have different approaches, different techniques, etc., but with commonalities. The better instruction that I have received, In the Chinese methods, focuses on the principles that power the techniques which makes it possible to recognize the commonalities.

Yeah, fair. I guess a better way to say it might have been that, in FMA, the transferability of movement and principle from one weapon to another is an explicitly stated training objective. So, when you're learning a new weapon, its commonality to other weapons is explicitly referred to.

Now, it could well be that you're about to say "yep, that's the same in CMA." At which point, I'll conclude that I should have said something other than CMA. I have no first-hand background in it. Just a lot of reading when I was younger. Based on what Hyoho said above, perhaps JMA would have been a better contrast.

But really, I suppose a contrast isn't really needed. My best bet was probably simply to say that it depends on the degree to which the teaching of new weapons is explicitly related to those that you've already learned.

I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[Hyoho]

I like it better this way. One day someone asked me how can I tell who the senior students were. I grinned and said "Easy. The ones who have been here the longest are usually the ones who do the best and appear to know what they are doing. Those who have only been there for a short time still have trouble." I thought it was a strange question

It's like everything else. The skill at which people perform says a lot about their training and their ability. The advanced student will never look like the beginner student. There's no way to fool people when it comes to showing skill level.

Experienced fighters never look nor move like beginner fighters.
Experiences forms /kata performers never look like beginner performers
Experienced weapon's user never move or look like beginners

To me it's clear but to many Americans this is confusing and a belt is needed to tell who is better and more skilled. That's why stuff like this happens. Even though he's pretending to be a beginner. There are things that should be hints that make people question that he's a beginner even before they spar (roll).

I think belts often make people pay attention to the wrong thing instead of being observant about the movement of the person in front. But that's just me. I know that for some belts are a good thing. I can accept that. Pros and Cons to everything.

I am not against the system and should now grade people in the association I belong to. I had taken 27 Dan grades in Japan and gave up taking any more at the age of 42. I simply wanted to practice more classical. The wording translated on my Menkyo Kaiden tells me "You still have lot to learn".

Someone bows and enters. One can immediately see by their deportment and dress who they probably are. It's not about how long you did it. Some love what they do and will never be particularly good at it. But a lot rubs off on them. We watch kids enter the system and among them are born fighters. As they work there way up through education practicing seven days a week they are the ones that get picked to fight. But still ever week there is a fight off to see who will be on the squad. For sure the main difference is no one pays to study. Even here where I am now in the Philippines MA is part of the education Phys/Ed curriculum. 120 students just waiting for this Covid to die down so we can get back to full time practice.

 

[Flyingknee]

And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?

 

[Gyakuto]

Rrrreally?

Two, if you buy these magic beans from me.

 

[Gyakuto]

Call me picky, but it is considered bad form (at least in TMA) to refer to oneself with a title such as this.

It’s Master Ken posting..American Kempo = Ameridote 😀

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?

This, again, depends what level you're trying to maintain them at. I'll use empty-hand fighting skills as an analogy. If you want to be able to hold your own in some light sparring, that's a different level than being able to hold your own in a low-level amateur MMA match, which is a different level from being competitive in MMA, and so on. Just as each of those levels takes more time and effort to reach, they also take more time and effort to maintain. To stay competitive in MMA, you'd have to put in a lot of effort. If you're quite good, you might be able to maintain one of those other levels fairly easily with just some occasional sparring and ongoing fitness work.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

And would you recommend training in one weapon at a time or in more and how many?

The difference is in your mind, and related to Maai or distance and timing (interval) . Weapons are a extension of the body, the body most be taught First to express the intentions of the Heart/mind efficiently and effectively without thought, or training with a weapon will leave you vulnerable in some environments . In the book "Heiho Okugisho" The secret of high strategy , by Yamamoto Kansuke , Samurai (1501-1561) Translated by Toshishiro Obata, pg 50
"If the Bo is learned first , it will help in the training and usage of other long weapons, People who are learning to use long weapons must learn Bo first. Learning how to use the Bo will improve your body movement and your usage of other weapons"

 

[Flying Crane]

And the next related question: You start training in one or two weapons (which is what most people in this thread seem to advise), you reach a level that you're satisfied with and you move on to studying other weapons, how often do you then practice the first two so you don't loose the skills you've gained in them?

If you stop training, you will lose the skills. Like everything. So no, you don’t get to “move on to the next” if that means stop working on what you’ve already done. Not if you want to keep up that skill.

That can be a problem with training multiple weapons. How much time to you have for your training, over the long haul? Spread yourself too thin, it gets difficult to build and then maintain your skill.

 

[Flyingknee]

If you stop training, you will lose the skills. Like everything. So no, you don’t get to “move on to the next” if that means stop working on what you’ve already done. Not if you want to keep up that skill.

That can be a problem with training multiple weapons. How much time to you have for your training, over the long haul? Spread yourself too thin, it gets difficult to build and then maintain your skill.

With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.

With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).

......

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even here where I am now in the Philippines MA is part of the education Phys/Ed curriculum.

I wish this was the case in the U.S. school. I think it would go a long way in correcting many of the social issues that are present in the schools here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.

With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).

......

I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.

I'll reiterate both of FC's points:

If you don't stay in practice, your proficiency level will drop. As far as I know (including from actual studies on the topic), that's pretty much inarguable. How much you lose, and how quickly, depends on how good you were when you backed off. The higher the level of skill (and the harder it was to attain), the more quickly it fades to a lower level. An elite athlete out for a few months loses more than I do, because what they do takes more maintenance.

Dividing your time among multiple weapons means you have less time to maintain each weapon. If you decide you're happy with your staff skill level and move on to practice knives (dropping the staff training), your staff skill degrades over time. If you work out a maintenance schedule for the staff (keep practicing a couple of hours a week, you have less time to commit to the next thing, unless you increase your total training time with each new weapon.

 

[Flying Crane]

With regards to your first paragraph: That's not what I think...quite the contrary actually...read my post again.

With regards to your second paragraph : That's exactly what I'm asking...why repeat it instead of trying to answer it (if you think you're able to of course).

......

Then the answer is you need to train every day. And you need to add more time to each session, so you can practice the new stuff too and not compromise the old stuff.

But over the long haul, that is not realistic for most people. So the real answer is, you practice as much as your lifestyle allows, and you need to be satisfied with the results because there isn’t much you can do about it. If your lifestyle doesn’t allow for more training, then that is all you get. If you are not happy with the results, then maybe you are trying to do too many things for the time that you have available, and something needs to be jettisoned.

there is no simple answer to this. Different people have different capabilities and different amounts of training time available to them. The only simple answer is: as much as you can.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.

I'll reiterate both of FC's points:

If you don't stay in practice, your proficiency level will drop. As far as I know (including from actual studies on the topic), that's pretty much inarguable. How much you lose, and how quickly, depends on how good you were when you backed off. The higher the level of skill (and the harder it was to attain), the more quickly it fades to a lower level. An elite athlete out for a few months loses more than I do, because what they do takes more maintenance.

Dividing your time among multiple weapons means you have less time to maintain each weapon. If you decide you're happy with your staff skill level and move on to practice knives (dropping the staff training), your staff skill degrades over time. If you work out a maintenance schedule for the staff (keep practicing a couple of hours a week, you have less time to commit to the next thing, unless you increase your total training time with each new weapon.

This is especially true when taking the "Fast path" to learning things. The longer path means it takes longer to be good, but it also means that there is no quality loss by stopping one skill set in order to get a higher concentration in another. The other option is that empty hand techniques use similar movements as your weapon techniques.

 

[Flyingknee]

I'm not sure why you choose the eyeroll, just because someone (with likely more experience) gives an answer you don't like.

I'll reiterate both of FC's points:

If you don't stay in practice, your proficiency level will drop. As far as I know (including from actual studies on the topic), that's pretty much inarguable. How much you lose, and how quickly, depends on how good you were when you backed off. The higher the level of skill (and the harder it was to attain), the more quickly it fades to a lower level. An elite athlete out for a few months loses more than I do, because what they do takes more maintenance.

Dividing your time among multiple weapons means you have less time to maintain each weapon. If you decide you're happy with your staff skill level and move on to practice knives (dropping the staff training), your staff skill degrades over time. If you work out a maintenance schedule for the staff (keep practicing a couple of hours a week, you have less time to commit to the next thing, unless you increase your total training time with each new weapon.

The issue wasn't that it was an answer I didn't like. The issue was that it was a non-answer answer. Try really hard to focus...

 

[Buka]

The issue wasn't that it was an answer I didn't like. The issue was that it was a non-answer answer. Try really hard to focus...

Flying Knee, you seek advice, yes? That presumably is why you joined this forum?

 

[Flyingknee]

Flying Knee, you seek advice, yes? That presumably is why you joined this forum?

Yes, as in coherent answers. You should try to focus as well...since you've joined this forum.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, as in coherent answers. You should try to focus as well...since you've joined this forum.

You're asking a non-question, which is why you got a non-answer. Technically asking any of us how often we practice our old weapons is something we can answer, but that answer provides no actual information.

For instance: I practice my kempos about once a month now, since moving to a different art/focus. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't fence at all anymore, and have likely lost most of my skill over the past 6 years.

Does that provide any useful information to you? Because to me it doesn't seem like it would.

 

[Flyingknee]

You're asking a non-question, which is why you got a non-answer. Technically asking any of us how often we practice our old weapons is something we can answer, but that answer provides no actual information.

For instance: I practice my kempos about once a month now, since moving to a different art/focus. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't fence at all anymore, and have likely lost most of my skill over the past 6 years.

Does that provide any useful information to you? Because to me it doesn't seem like it would.

It certainly does. And I certainly was NOT asking a non question my friend.