Weapon based sparring

[Finlay]

Hello

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.

There seem to be a couple of different approaches. The first hit approach where you try to tag your opponent before they get you. This would be like fencing or Kendo

The other approach seem to be sort of a go hell for leather, LeRoy Jenkins type approach. This would be like WEKAF way of doing things. This to me seems extremely difficult to judge

In between I guess would be things like the dog brothers styles or MEMA.

One other approach is to put lipstick or paint on training knives and then see how well you can mark up your opponent. This would maybe be more for training than sparring however.

What do others think of the weapons based sparring apporach?

 

[Martial D]

Hello

Hi

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.

I like it.

What do other things if the weapons based sparring apporach?

What?

 

[hoshin1600]

Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy, there is a thread on that).. then I Googled WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
If you want to have a serious discussion, if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.


Edit: I found WEKAF,, it's kali point sparring.

 

[CB Jones]

Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy, there is a thread on that).. then I Googled WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
If you want to have a serious discussion, if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.


Edit: I found WEKAF,, it's kali point sparring.

The Leeroy Jenkins reference means to just attack aggressively without any regards to safety or strategy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hello

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.

There seem to be a couple of different approaches. The first hit approach where you try to tag your opponent before they get you. This would be like fencing or Kendo

The other approach seem to be sort of a go hell for leather, LeRoy Jenkins type approach. This would be like WEKAF way of doing things. This to me seems extremely difficult to judge

In between I guess would be things like the dog brothers styles or MEMA.

One other approach is to put lipstick or paint on training knives and then see how well you can mark up your opponent. This would maybe be more for training than sparring however.

What do others think of the weapons based sparring apporach?

Just get two sticks or rubber knives and go to town on each other.

General strategy:hit them but don't get hit, and start from the hands (fingers/wrist), and work your way in.

Edit: to anyone reading, please do this with protective gear. My recommendation would be fencing mask and hockey glove. If you don't, even if it's just a rubber knife or sticks, you can still hurt yourself.

 

[Anarax]

Hello

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.

There seem to be a couple of different approaches. The first hit approach where you try to tag your opponent before they get you. This would be like fencing or Kendo

The other approach seem to be sort of a go hell for leather, LeRoy Jenkins type approach. This would be like WEKAF way of doing things. This to me seems extremely difficult to judge

In between I guess would be things like the dog brothers styles or MEMA.

One other approach is to put lipstick or paint on training knives and then see how well you can mark up your opponent. This would maybe be more for training than sparring however.

What do others think of the weapons based sparring apporach?

The methods used in training/sparring shape the way you fight. The first hit method is flawed, it trains you to fight in "hit, stop, reset" mentality. Imagine full contact fighters training with this mentality, when one lands a strike they reset. It teaches you to not fight with combinations and also prevents you from developing defense skills against combos. I studied sport saber fencing for 10 years and taught it for 2. I know the the flaws of the first hit method first hand.

Kendo has a few select target areas, you must tap your foot and yell out the target area you hit at the time of contact with the shinai. Take that for what it is

WEKAF tries to be more realistic in its continuous approach. However; the rules favor how many strikes you land and gives very little to no importance on defense. When sparring they wear very thick pads, thus all defensive techniques are thrown out the window. This causes almost every exchange to be become a whirlwind or chaotic strikes, both combatants being struck dozens of times in the face, yet are still striking the other person. That's not very realistic

The original Dog Brothers, Marc, Eric and Arlan were trained by Inosanto and are very well trained Martial Artist. Dog brothers have a lot of knowledge and experience that almost anyone can benefit from. However; their gathering are barbaric and unstructured. If you haven't seen their gatherings go to Youtube and search dog brothers, they upload the highlights. There is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly, they cross that line frequently. In their gatherings I've seen participants get their head gashed open, knees separated and impaled with training knives. A lot of the gathering participants aren't even that skilled, they just run out there swinging wildly with not footwork not technique.

MEMA? Do you mean HEMA? If so I don't have any personal experience with HEMA, but from what I've seen they have a good approach.

The Kali school I go to does continuous sparring with either lipstick or chalk. This gives you more feedback on what areas you need to cover more and gives a clear idea on who would have died and survived. I think this approach is best.

 

[Anarax]

Edit: to anyone reading, please do this with protective gear. My recommendation would be fencing mask and hockey glove. If you don't, even if it's just a rubber knife or sticks, you can still hurt yourself.

No, do not use a fencing mask. Fencing masks aren't designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection

 

[MA_Student]

Personally I have absolutely 0 interest in weapons. It's just not my thing at all. I'll weapon disarms but I have no interest what so ever in learning how to use them. Whenever I've had people trying to teach me weapon stuff I'm bored and uninterested in minutes just not my thing

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy, there is a thread on that).. then I Googled WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
If you want to have a serious discussion, if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.


Edit: I found WEKAF,, it's kali point sparring.

Leroy Jenkins is a reference to a gamer who, when part of a group going into a difficult area, just charged in (yelling "Leeeerroooy Jenkins!") while others were discussing strategy. I think all the characters died.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, do not use a fencing mask. Fencing masks aren't designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection

It would probably be sufficient for rubber training knives and for padded sticks. I'd have to experiment to see.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No, do not use a fencing mask. Fencing masks aren't designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection

Like gpseymour said, I normally refer to rubber knives/padded sticks. fencing mask works well enough for them. Never tried with sticks, good to know. I'll switch to an excrima helmet just to be safe.

 

[Anarax]

It would probably be sufficient for rubber training knives and for padded sticks. I'd have to experiment to see.

Yes it would be, I was referring to non padded sticks.

 

[Anarax]

Like gpseymour said, I normally refer to rubber knives/padded sticks. fencing mask works well enough for them. Never tried with sticks, good to know. I'll switch to an excrima helmet just to be safe.

Yes, I only meant for non-padded sticks. Fencing masks are okay for padded sticks or rubber knives

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, I only meant for non-padded sticks. Fencing masks are okay for padded sticks or rubber knives

Good to know. I'll definitely get another mask for before I 'graduate to non-padded sticks.

 

[Finlay]

The methods used in training/sparring shape the way you fight. The first hit method is flawed, it trains you to fight in "hit, stop, reset" mentality. Imagine full contact fighters training with this mentality, when one lands a strike they reset. It teaches you to not fight with combinations and also prevents you from developing defense skills against combos. I studied sport saber fencing for 10 years and taught it for 2. I know the the flaws of the first hit method first hand.

Kendo has a few select target areas, you must tap your foot and yell out the target area you hit at the time of contact with the shinai. Take that for what it is

WEKAF tries to be more realistic in its continuous approach. However; the rules favor how many strikes you land and gives very little to no importance on defense. When sparring they wear very thick pads, thus all defensive techniques are thrown out the window. This causes almost every exchange to be become a whirlwind or chaotic strikes, both combatants being struck dozens of times in the face, yet are still striking the other person. That's not very realistic

The original Dog Brothers, Marc, Eric and Arlan were trained by Inosanto and are very well trained Martial Artist. Dog brothers have a lot of knowledge and experience that almost anyone can benefit from. However; their gathering are barbaric and unstructured. If you haven't seen their gatherings go to Youtube and search dog brothers, they upload the highlights. There is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly, they cross that line frequently. In their gatherings I've seen participants get their head gashed open, knees separated and impaled with training knives. A lot of the gathering participants aren't even that skilled, they just run out there swinging wildly with not footwork not technique.

MEMA? Do you mean HEMA? If so I don't have any personal experience with HEMA, but from what I've seen they have a good approach.

The Kali school I go to does continuous sparring with either lipstick or chalk. This gives you more feedback on what areas you need to cover more and gives a clear idea on who would have died and survived. I think this approach is best.

Interesting

I always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach

Like you stated, there is no attention paid to defence in the WEKAF type of sparring. Do the judges just get a feel for who hit the most and then declare them the winner?

I had though the Dog Brothers had a very good sparring system until I read your post. I didn't realise how common or how serious the injuries were

Are there any other sparring systems that fall some where between the one hit point striking or the no defence and just hit wild approaches?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting

I always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach

Like you stated, there is no attention paid to defence in the WEKAF type of sparring. Do the judges just get a feel for who hit the most and then declare them the winner?

I had though the Dog Brothers had a very good sparring system until I read your post. I didn't realise how common or how serious the injuries were

Are there any other sparring systems that fall some where between the one hit point striking or the no defence and just hit wild approaches?

The problem is that weapons are force multipliers. With most weapons, the more realistic the interaction, the more likely injuries are. The more safety you inject, the less realistic the interaction is. I've done some very limited weapons sparring, and this is the reason. I tend to prefer using padded weapons and hit fairly hard - it gives incentive to keep up defense (and provides some conditioning), but has far less chance of injury.

 

[Anarax]

always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach

Yes, originally sport fencing was supposed to represent real sword fighting, but was safer to compete. After so many decades it has evolved to become an electrified game of tag. There are techniques in sport fencing today that would get you killed in a real sword fight.

Like you stated, there is no attention paid to defence in the WEKAF type of sparring. Do the judges just get a feel for who hit the most and then declare them the winner?

From the WEKAF matches I've seen the one who lands the most amount of strikes is the one who usually wins, regardless of how many times they were hit

I had though the Dog Brothers had a very good sparring system until I read your post. I didn't realise how common or how serious the injuries were

Yes, the original group are great guys and highly skilled martial artists. The newer generations of students at the gatherings are mostly just berserkers with very little training.

Are there any other sparring systems that fall some where between the one hit point striking or the no defence and just hit wild approaches?

Each Kali/Escrima/Arnis school is different. But I think practice knives with lipstick or chalk to see the strikes along with eye protection is a good method. Either geared up stick sparing with an element of defense in it or padded sticks with face/eye protection are good methods for stick.

 

[Finlay]

What do people think of "shock knives"?

Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?

 

[Finlay]

The problem is that weapons are force multipliers. With most weapons, the more realistic the interaction, the more likely injuries are. The more safety you inject, the less realistic the interaction is. I've done some very limited weapons sparring, and this is the reason. I tend to prefer using padded weapons and hit fairly hard - it gives incentive to keep up defense (and provides some conditioning), but has far less chance of injury.

Yes I think this is exactly the problem. Training with a killing weapon without killing

 

[Anarax]

What do people think of "shock knives"?

Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?

They're used for training not self defense, they even state so on their website