How effective is world tkd in stopping a take down
- Thread starter Rumy73
- Start date
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Short version, i agree with the caveat that were limiting this not only to someone whos 'WTF trained' but whos also trying to use their training for some reason, and not just using their brain.
Long version:
WTF is not a system of TKD (wasnt that being changed earlier this year though?). Assuming the practitioner limited themself to athletic competition form, yeah, theyre in bad territory. Etc etc etc...
Stuffing a takedown is difficult to begin with. Under the KKW systems, its more down to whether the instructor teaches it than anything else*, and even then itll have less time committed to it than striking regardless of how good the information is. Based on that, im inclined to agree, assuming the person for some reason tried to stuff a takedown, a thing that happens at close range, using a kick, a thing that basically doesnt.
Fact is though, even crappy tackles are difficult to stuff if you cant stop them before they get hold of you, and that gets harder still when its committed. Tackling works. If you can stuff it before a hold is secured its not exactly rocket science from that point on... assuming you can stuff it. This is where training in multiple systems can get useful - Learning to grapple is good for learning how to be harder to grapple. But thats another subject.
All imho, of course.
*never mind the technical level - if youve never been tackled or taken down before, youre more than likely going to seize up if and when it happens. thatll happen anyway, but you can minimize the extent.
Long version:
WTF is not a system of TKD (wasnt that being changed earlier this year though?). Assuming the practitioner limited themself to athletic competition form, yeah, theyre in bad territory. Etc etc etc...
Stuffing a takedown is difficult to begin with. Under the KKW systems, its more down to whether the instructor teaches it than anything else*, and even then itll have less time committed to it than striking regardless of how good the information is. Based on that, im inclined to agree, assuming the person for some reason tried to stuff a takedown, a thing that happens at close range, using a kick, a thing that basically doesnt.
Fact is though, even crappy tackles are difficult to stuff if you cant stop them before they get hold of you, and that gets harder still when its committed. Tackling works. If you can stuff it before a hold is secured its not exactly rocket science from that point on... assuming you can stuff it. This is where training in multiple systems can get useful - Learning to grapple is good for learning how to be harder to grapple. But thats another subject.
All imho, of course.
*never mind the technical level - if youve never been tackled or taken down before, youre more than likely going to seize up if and when it happens. thatll happen anyway, but you can minimize the extent.
Assuming they only used the kind of techniques that are legal in a WTF match, you mean? Probably not, at least if the other guy was any good or seriously motivated. They'd have to kick and dodge fast enough that the guy couldn't get in for the tackle, and hurt him enough that he gave up. I think that would work on some drunk guy at a bar trying to mess with you, but not against a trained MMA fighter.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
There's no such thing as someone trained in 'world tkd', so, er, no.
WTF Taekwondo is a subset of Kukki Taekwondo, and a fairly limited one at that. That said, the WTF, who regulate the rules for competition, do not only regulate sparring competition, they also regulate Poomsae competition. So your question becomes interesting when you consider whether a high level Poomsae competitor with a good understanding of application of the movements could use them to stop a takedown. Most high dan grade Poomsae competitors I know are down with some of the alternative applications of motions, such as throws, strangles and chokes, for example. You just don't reach a high level of competition without some experimentation.
I'd say it's likely that you might get the tackle on, maybe get to the ground, but they might not be joining you there.
Depends on the person, of course.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
The UFCs have answered this question, so it's not limited to the WTF or any other system. Those strikers who never trained to stop the takedown couldn't and were like fish out of water when taken down. The grapplers who did this in the early UFCs did not just train agains grapplers they trained against strikers. As strikers trained to stop it they became succesful at it. Similarly grapplers trained to strike. There have been nor\teable grapplers who won with strikes and noteable strikers who got the submission. It was said 100os of years ago by Sun Tzu. Know your opponent and know yourself...
Apples and oranges. Loaded question. However, a trained athlete should be able to sprawl really fast if shown how. This is why I've done bjj for 13 years as well. Most bjj/wrestler can not avoid a fast off the line or back spin hook(or a front kick). Athletes are different from the average practitioner.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
It's difficult to take someone down in single or double leg or straightforward tackle without exposing vulnerable vital areas like the spine, kidneys and base of skull to some pretty wicked blows.
That takedown is a sport technique, which is one of the reasons why it works in a sport setting. With an unrestricted response, it's pretty easy to cause some pretty serious pain and damage. So, I guess it would depend on what you 'world taekwondo trained' guy had included in his 'world taekwondo training'.
Gnarlie
That takedown is a sport technique, which is one of the reasons why it works in a sport setting. With an unrestricted response, it's pretty easy to cause some pretty serious pain and damage. So, I guess it would depend on what you 'world taekwondo trained' guy had included in his 'world taekwondo training'.
Gnarlie
Excellent remark! I'm happy to see someone raised that fundamental aspect.
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
You can drill it in class without too much trouble. We ddid something similar at a Rickson Gracie Seminar. Person comes in and ries to tie you up. While they do that you try to place the palm of your hand on theri head. Of course they block, parry or evade the palm. The palm to the head is a head strike simulation. If you hit them with the palm without getting tied up you win. If they tie you up without getting hit they win. Youcan expand to any number of strikes.
For one, I know that good TKD have good foot work and speed. If that were my primary skill set I would focus on using my foot work and speed to keep at my distance. I would fight defensively and not try to commit to any high risk attacks. They move forward I move back. Force them to move into a high percentage attack that is your bread and butter. I would imagine a side kick, or other linear power kick.
Don't grapple a grappler..
If facing a grappler, I don't think being aggressive as the tkd striker will server you. You must keep them at distance..
Or you can spend a few hours a week learning a grappling art so, as was stated earlier, you can be harder to grapple..
Don't grapple a grappler..
If facing a grappler, I don't think being aggressive as the tkd striker will server you. You must keep them at distance..
Or you can spend a few hours a week learning a grappling art so, as was stated earlier, you can be harder to grapple..
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I suspect youre underestimating how quickly you can run forward with a takedown attempt... Try it yourself, in a hallway or something. Compare it to the speed you can backpedal. Lemme know how that goes
I suspect youre underestimating how quickly you can run forward with a takedown attempt... Try it yourself, in a hallway or something. Compare it to the speed you can backpedal. Lemme know how that goes
Lyoto Machida is pretty good at avoiding take down with footwork and the occasional sprawl!!!!
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Machida is also specifically trained for it
His footwork is almost exclusively Shotokan Karate!!!! Very similar to TKD!!! We have studied his footwork and TDD in great detail! He is very!!!!!!!! Good!!!!!! He has made some wrestlers pay!!!!!
