To Takedown or Not to Takedown?

[Wing Woo Gar]

The knee bump takedown.

Note he gets the dagestani handcuff. If he has his own knife or gun or just likes to bash people. He can use that to free up his hand in the clinch. While the other guy still has 2 hands occupied.

He can hang on to that position on the ground and still tie up both arms on the other guy. Or just smash him down and run off. Or kick him in the head or something.

Very nice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The knee bump takedown.

Note he gets the dagestani handcuff. If he has his own knife or gun or just likes to bash people. He can use that to free up his hand in the clinch. While the other guy still has 2 hands occupied.

He can hang on to that position on the ground and still tie up both arms on the other guy. Or just smash him down and run off. Or kick him in the head or something.

That’s gentle and kind. It has good use for a person that needs time out but not a broken jaw.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You can clinch in a way that limits the ability of the other guy to pull a weapon. Underhook, wrist or underhook, bicept.

There are dynamic entries that get you in to that position. And there are some nice body locks, back takes and takedowns from that position.

Then you also have the advantage in striking.
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All things in context, you are correct. These situations rarely repeat themselves, each is kinetically, and circumstantially unique. Options and flow based on more gross, rather than fine motor function usually have better efficacy due to adrenaline dump. The simpler the action, the better. The more repetition, the more reliable the action will be. It doesn’t need to be fancy, it doesn’t need to be able to beat a pro boxer, it needs to be like brushing my teeth, or scratching an itch.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The knee bump takedown.

Note he gets the dagestani handcuff. If he has his own knife or gun or just likes to bash people. He can use that to free up his hand in the clinch. While the other guy still has 2 hands occupied.

He can hang on to that position on the ground and still tie up both arms on the other guy. Or just smash him down and run off. Or kick him in the head or something.

Small things can facilitate big results. I use my knees in a similar fashion in stand-up fighting when in close. There is a lot you can do to unbalance and limit the opponent's movement using leg vs leg in striking combat. It's a chapter in the book of combat many strikers have not been exposed to. They are short, quick, unseen and unexpected moves. Your video clip illustrates this well.

Ed Parker (who often compared karate to language) called such things "prefixes" to a main attack. He introduced me to this concept of subtle leg attacks, although it was years later that I worked at it. Depending on your position against the opponent's leg, a small bend of the knee or straightening of the knee, is a great way to break his balance and get a little extra edge for the next move, whether a takedown or strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The knee bump takedown.

When your opponent has arms around your waist, you can use "over hook" to crack his elbow joint. You can then use "leg spring" to spring one of his legs back into bow-arrow stance. This way, he won't be able to use his knee to take you down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but control does not win fights against a determined foe.

Agree! In another thread, people argue whether "redirect" by itself can end a fight or not. I believe "redirect" by itself is not enough to end a fight. But "redirect" + "trip" may end with a bad fall that can end a fight.

Head meets ground can end a fight.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When your opponent has arms around your waist, you can use "over hook" to crack his elbow joint. You can then use "leg spring" to spring one of his legs back into bow-arrow stance. This way, he won't be able to use his knee to take you down.

This also makes his front leg more vulnerable and opens his groin to attack afterwards.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This also makes his front leg more vulnerable and opens his groin to attack afterwards.

This is the most logic way to attack your opponent after your leg spring. My teacher used to treat this as a secret. One day he said, "I will pay anybody $10,000 if he knows what tie is."



I think a knee strike to the face after "leg spring" can be a good end fight move.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think a knee strike to the face after "leg spring" can be a good end fight move.

A knee strike to the face will solve most any problem. Even better than "stomp the groin."

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I was going to write a detailed response to @isshinryuronin but I liked your very concise answer.

This is party of the fundamental problem with a lot of martial theorycrafting online. There is so much pontification over these false dualities, when reality is fights are always in the moment, and fast.

So of course, as a pretty competent boxer and wrestler, I'm going to prefer to take you down for a list of reasons (e.g. I don't want to get hit in the face and controlling you is going to be preferable).

But I might not even have to take you down, because clinching you might solve the whole problem (e.g., if someone comes in at you, a nice firm clinch is better than a firm handshake, it has more de-escalation value than most people realize).

Compared to a lot of martial arts yahoos who think they're going to pull off some crazy move and disable you outright....I'd have to say standup wrestling, ground wrestling, boxing, in that order solves most fights with those types of people, because the truth is most of them have never actually fought, or been in a physical conflict where they ever learned to maintain their own self control, let alone control of another.

Also as others have pointed out, most of the confrontations you're actually likely to be involved in require you to control your assailant and hurt them as little as possible and kicking them when they're down- for instance- does not come under the definition of reasonable force. As you say though, grappling in the clinch range is an important part of your overall game and is often neglected.

 

[skribs]

Some maintain you have more control on the ground, but control does not win fights against a determined foe. At some point, he must be disabled allowing you to disengage

Control buys time for others to come help. Control allows you to use your weight to wear them out. Those positions are also excellent for isolating an arm or a neck to disable them.

- eventually you will have to go pee

I don't see the need to disengage here.

 

[HighKick]

Control buys time for others to come help. Control allows you to use your weight to wear them out. Those positions are also excellent for isolating an arm or a neck to disable them.

I don't see the need to disengage here.

Again, the situation dictates everything. In a competition environment, ground control can win the match. In a takedown, street encounter, going to the ground could be the worst mistake you make. The first thing that comes to mind is what are you going to do when you get there and how long are you going to do it? There is a Huge difference between restraint, submission and disabling moves. And a Huge difference between disabling moves and 'ending' moves.
In the grappling world, I believe the term 'submission' sometimes carries too much weight. It is oftentimes used as the end-all, be-all. If that same move is used in a street assault/takedown situation with the same mindset, it is going to fail at times because some guys are just Not going to quit resisting. That 'normal' moment/level of a move that works on the mat just will not be the same with a person who is doped up or emotionally compromised. I have seen it firsthand too many times.
Taking a mindset that control buys time for help to come can get you killed. It can be near impossible to 'wear out' a guy cracked out of his mind.
I fully agree there are very good positions for isolation and taking control of a body part, but you better have an end game such as hard restraints. You should Never have a mindset that you can hold a position indefinitely.

 

[skribs]

Again, the situation dictates everything. In a competition environment, ground control can win the match. In a takedown, street encounter, going to the ground could be the worst mistake you make. The first thing that comes to mind is what are you going to do when you get there and how long are you going to do it? There is a Huge difference between restraint, submission and disabling moves. And a Huge difference between disabling moves and 'ending' moves.
In the grappling world, I believe the term 'submission' sometimes carries too much weight. It is oftentimes used as the end-all, be-all. If that same move is used in a street assault/takedown situation with the same mindset, it is going to fail at times because some guys are just Not going to quit resisting. That 'normal' moment/level of a move that works on the mat just will not be the same with a person who is doped up or emotionally compromised. I have seen it firsthand too many times.
Taking a mindset that control buys time for help to come can get you killed. It can be near impossible to 'wear out' a guy cracked out of his mind.
I fully agree there are very good positions for isolation and taking control of a body part, but you better have an end game such as hard restraints. You should Never have a mindset that you can hold a position indefinitely.

There are a lot of videos on line of wrestlers or jiu-jitieros pinning down someone who just attempted to shoplift or kidnap someone until police can arrive.

This is one of those situations where there is actual evidence of this happening and being good when it happened. You can theorize all you want, but it's been demonstrated to be true in the real world.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There are a lot of videos on line of wrestlers or jiu-jitieros pinning down someone who just attempted to shoplift or kidnap someone until police can arrive.

This is one of those situations where there is actual evidence of this happening and being good when it happened. You can theorize all you want, but it's been demonstrated to be true in the real world.

It’s been demonstrated in the real world that you can get dead by doing that, no theorizing, no rebuttal necessary. Video is anecdotal, there are videos to the contrary as well. You need water to live, but water can kill you, both things are true.

 

[HighKick]

There are a lot of videos on line of wrestlers or jiu-jitieros pinning down someone who just attempted to shoplift or kidnap someone until police can arrive.

This is one of those situations where there is actual evidence of this happening and being good when it happened. You can theorize all you want, but it's been demonstrated to be true in the real world.

Sure. But have You ever done it? I am not talking about a pin or submission in a match. Much harder than it looks. I am not theorizing, I have had to do it, and it is a PITA.
Think of it this way, imagine holding 150 plus pounds perpendicular for 5-10 minutes. Do you really think you could do that?

 

[wab25]

We have touched on this a little bit.... but I believe it needs more consideration. Things are different "in the streets."

What is a nice gentle take down, in the dojo, on the mat, with a trained and relatively healthy training partner... can be catastrophic or deadly to someone not in good health, with no training off the mat. There are videos of people using basic judo throws, landing untrained people on their head on very hard ground. Even in some of the more "gentle" take downs, if the other guy is untrained and whips his head back, into the ground... that can be serious.

Then we have the issues with choking going to far, not knowing the pre-existing conditions of the other guy, we have positional asphyxia, there are drug issues, heart issues....

We tend to see people in training get taken down and pop right back up, they take a judo fall and get right back up.... If the opponent on the street is not trained and not healthy... what was simple and safe in a gym... could be devastating outside. The worst part is, you won't know until its over, that it was too much.

I am not arguing for or against here.... just wanted to highlight some of the differences that we are overlooking....

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sure. But have You ever done it? I am not talking about a pin or submission in a match. Much harder than it looks. I am not theorizing, I have had to do it, and it is a PITA.
Think of it this way, imagine holding 150 plus pounds perpendicular for 5-10 minutes. Do you really think you could do that?

Made even more difficult by the fact that you are trying not to kill or seriously injure them.

 

[Holmejr]

besides all the practicalities of take down, I believe there is a humanitarian aspect as well. With fists and feet you basically have to beat your attacker into giving up. With takedowns you basically put the aggressor into a position of weakness were they might concede. In most defense situations you’re dealing with emotions like anger, jealousy, embarrassment, etc and not true malice like robbery. In the former the altercation can end in a handshake or a beer.