How do you train chi sau?

[yak sao]

For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau.
These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.

Having come from this method of training, I have naturally taught this to my students, but now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's time for a change, at least in my little corner of the world.

I don't teach large numbers of people...I have a group of maybe a dozen. It begs the question then, shouldn't my chi sau be taught from a more traditional standpoint instead of following the "corporate model"?

I would like to hear from not only from WT people but also those of you from other lineages. How do you guys guide your students through chi sau?

 

[zuti car]

I have practiced WT long time ago , actually I have started with it . I have found that WT sections are good way to teach students basics and i do use them to teach some some of my students .

 

[KPM]

In Pin Sun the student learns the roll (our rolling platform is different from the Ip Man version). Then he or she learns to attack and defend the "4 gates" with simple moves. For a punch over the top on the outside with either hand....Bong Sau. For a punch up the middle on the inside with either hand....Jut Sau. Then the student works on countering with a simple strike after defending each of these 4 gates. Then we work on transitioning into the Lop Da drill for several cycles and then back into the roll. That's really all that is "prearranged." No complicated techniques. No Chi Sau "tricks." Free flow is done in Chi Sau but mainly as a bridge to light sparring. Chi Sau is not seen as a game in and of itself, but as a way to bridge in from contact.

 

[yak sao]

I'm probably thinking out loud more than anything, because I do think the sections are good as well.

Sometimes I think that people get too wrapped up in them and forget that they are simply a vehicle to get you to into free style, not something that should be slavishly adhered to.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I would like to hear from not only from WT people but also those of you from other lineages. How do you guys guide your students through chi sau?

I teach it as a progression (as I'm sure most do). Dan chi sau (stationary); then Dan chi sau (moving); then running hands (outside, inside); then Dan chi sau using both hands; then Dan chi sau both hands moving...etc. Then move on to the "rolling"...then rolling with running hands, then common responses to common "attacks", and on and on and on it goes! Good topic Yak. I like that you are thinking and looking outside the "corporate" box...

 

[dlcox]

Wow tough to describe in a few words. In Ruan family we use 3 formats. Single Sticking Hands to Rolling Hands to Circling Hands. There are many preparation drills prior to each section. Each is based on the 3 families Tan, Fu & Bang. Once one learns proper structure, bridge usage and theory they progress through the formats. There are no real cycles to speak of as I like to keep it spontaneous and organic. I think this makes the student focus more on structure, theory and practical use as compared to coreographed sequences that turn in slap fighting. It admittedly takes longer to learn and there is a tendency for students to muscle the technique, but the trade off is practicality under heavy duress. Just as with everything else the more it is drilled the more sensitivity and finesse is developed. Ruan family is about what you learn today you use today. It follows an older mind set on training of learning realistic practical movement first then work towards polishing. It is cruder and not as pretty as some other branches of chi shou that I've seen but IMO just as effective. It looks similar to hand fighting in grappling. As time progresses one learns when to yield or press as needed along with subtle structure checks and manipulations. I would classify Ruan family as Iron Bridge style, not unlike a cross between Hongjia and Taijiquan. It is definately like Iron Wire tension, which is required for the heavy grappling aspect. More constricter than viper. All formats start stationary then progress to moving.

 

[BPWT]

LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau.
These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.

This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system

The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.

It's a wonderful idea... in theory... In practise, things are never so simple

Different people, in different countries, have very different ideas and understanding of the sections. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they understand them at all. Personally, I've come to the realisation that you need to study from someone who has had serious, extended training time in Hong Kong. Or a very close relationship with someone who has.

The history of Leung Ting's organisation is a long and complicated thing - with lots of little wires that can trip you up if you're not looking carefully at where you're going. I could tell you a few funny stories...



For me, the CS sections are very cleverly constructed and are very useful. The key, IMO, is in almost immediately adding to the mix Gor Sau and Lat Sau training. Even if you've only just started learning the first section. Indeed, even before you get to the first section in your training you should actually know most of what is in that section via various Lap Sau/Lap Kuen exercises. Those too (within a Lap Sau format) should also be be trained with a Gor Sau type method of training.

The CS sections give you examples of ways you can implement the system's body methods and concepts in a Chi Sau setting. The Gor Sau gets you playing freely with these things, and the Lat Sau allows you to understand how you apply those things when you're not starting from a pre-set bridged position (Poon Sau).

Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.

 

[yak sao]

Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.

This has been something I have been harping on with my students. Everyone gets so bogged down in the choreography of the sections that they forget that the sections, like our forms, are there for cataloguing purposes. I have been having the guys take small sequences out of the sections and drill the heck out of them, rather than just go through the sections by rote.

Maybe that's the answer, rather than chucking the whole method. They really are a good way of imparting the system...if approached properly

 

[yak sao]

This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system

The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.

It's a wonderful idea... in theory... In practise, things are never so simple

Different people, in different countries, have very different ideas and understanding of the sections. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they understand them at all. Personally, I've come to the realisation that you need to study from someone who has had serious, extended training time in Hong Kong. Or a very close relationship with someone who has.

The history of Leung Ting's organisation is a long and complicated thing - with lots of little wires that can trip you up if you're not looking carefully at where you're going. I could tell you a few funny stories...



For me, the CS sections are very cleverly constructed and are very useful. The key, IMO, is in almost immediately adding to the mix Gor Sau and Lat Sau training. Even if you've only just started learning the first section. Indeed, even before you get to the first section in your training you should actually know most of what is in that section via various Lap Sau/Lap Kuen exercises. Those too (within a Lap Sau format) should also be be trained with a Gor Sau type method of training.

The CS sections give you examples of ways you can implement the system's body methods and concepts in a Chi Sau setting. The Gor Sau gets you playing freely with these things, and the Lat Sau allows you to understand how you apply those things when you're not starting from a pre-set bridged position (Poon Sau).

Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.

BTW, nice to have another WT'er on board. I look forward to hearing your insights as time goes on.

 

[KPM]

The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.

Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent? Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?

 

[BPWT]

I have been having the guys take small sequences out of the sections and drill the heck out of them, rather than just go through the sections by rote.

This method fits me. But to add to the fun and to test if people are becoming natural in their use of the ideas inside the sections, it is nice to drill a single part of a section, over and over, and then randomly throw something else into that short cycle, just to see how you/they deal with it.

The nice thing about the sections is that the various parts that make them up can be interchanged, reinserted, etc. Do something from the first section, and then add in something from later in the section but not the next sequence had you been following the standard set. Then go back to the first short sequence, then add in something from a completely different section altogether.

It really keeps you on your toes - stops you just going through the motions. Instead of movements flowing in sequence (a, b, c, d, e), theY end up flowing something like a, b, e, z, h, 8, f, d. LOL.

And when I keep getting hit and *****ing things up, I know I need to slow things down and work on feeling pressure and force flow, etc. Often its the attack that determines the response - if you just let it. And that is the problem with the sections, like you said... we can easily get stuck in a game of anticipation as we know what is (or should) be coming next in a set sequence. Mix it up and all Hell breaks loose.

Another thing I like to do is to take an idea/concept and a possible method (body method, bridging method) that we get from a section, but do something a little different so that you use the same 'idea' to deal with the incoming attack, but use a different physical method to handle it.

For example, if a section (let's say the first) requires you to meet an attack with Wu Sau, and then use Bong to off-load the force... I make my attack a little differently, maybe coming in on a slightly different angle. This means that Bong from the other guy would be forced/not a natural response, and it might be a better idea to dissipate the force with a Tan instead, for example. Someone shouldn't be making a choice as to how they respond, of course, but the person in Wu Sau, when feeling strong force against the Wu should automatically make the right choice (say, Bong or Tan), based on the direction of incoming force.


I heard a funny story from a friend in Germany who was at a Leung Ting seminar many, many moons ago. LT was showing something from a section, doing what everyone expected within a set sequence. Then he grabbed another seminar participant to show that person the same thing. Same part of the section, just with a different partner.

With the second guy, when that guy attacked, Leung Ting's response to the attack was different, but then after that counter movement LT continued with the next part of the section like normal. Everyone was thinking, "So cool... LT just showed us a special variation to the section - something new that we hadn't learned before."

People were talking about it like it was a some kind of higher-level application.

What had happened? The second guy had simply attacked with less force, less commitment than the first guy. So naturally, LT's reaction to it was different. Nothing special, nothing higher level, just no need for him to do what he'd had to do with the first guy who had attacker harder.

LT didn't even bother to explain what had happened because he obviously thought it was, well, obvious. It was all about feeling. The sad thing is some people went away from that seminar and taught this 'special variation'. :eye-popping:


The important thing, IMO, is that whatever I do I tell myself it must: a) follow the system's core principles and ideas, b) flow naturally, c) ... work.

Maybe that's the answer, rather than chucking the whole method. They really are a good way of imparting the system...if approached properly

My highlights. This is so important, I think. I have met so many people and been so disappointed with training (and in so many countries, LOL) because I think the approach to Chi Sau is not as it should be. And here I'm talking exclusively about training within the Leung Ting system. And I love the system

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent? Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?

I personally look at WC forms as your encyclopedia of techniques and the Chi Sau as the method of learning how to apply the techniques and method of gaining sensitivity as well as muscle memory for your reflexes.

WC of course looks best while sparring other WC practitioners that are using WC structure in free sparring and then becomes a bit less Chi Sau/WC looking when they spar a different style/practitioner that has good outside game and reactions.

Yes it works against different styles and like most styles WC is a pretty complete system that has a strategy, concept or technique that can defend or neutralize most striking techniques.

Its a very effective system but what it comes down to is why style is not better but what practitioner is the better fighter/sparrer on that particular day of the match.

 

[BPWT]

Just a quick question.....how "generalizable" are these pre-arranged sections in terms of applying them to a non-Wing Chun opponent? Do what they teach work against a boxer or kick-boxer just as well as they do against a Wing Chun guy?

Tricky question to answer. The sections begin from Poon Sau and keep that 'Chi Sau' range - so if you Chi Sau'd with a boxer... sure they work against a boxer.

But seriously, at first glance it would be easy to say "No, they wouldn't work as well", because the attacks, etc, are classical WT punches and palm strikes, etc.

That said, so on second glance, I would say, "Yes, what they teach would work against a boxer." The principles and body methods are what count, at least what count more than the set sequence you run through.

The sections are teaching you about LLHS - LSJC, about opening up lines of attack, about how to control via bridging, how to redirect force, how to affect structure, etc, etc, so these things should be universal - if you know the system well and you've trained it properly, you should be able to use what is inside the sections (the lessons they teach) against a boxer, a mantis guy, a karate dude, etc.

Edit: It goes without saying, of course, that you need the Gor Sau and Lat Sau to accompany the Chi Sau sections. Plus, if you're a train-twice-a-week kinda guy, and you're facing a boxer (or whoever) who trains and fights 5 nights a week... probably you're toast. :lfao:

 

[dlcox]

This is an interesting - and potentially thorny - subject for those who learn Leung Ting's system

The sections were indeed put together to help the student understand how Chi Sau works; the what and the why, and to do so in a codified way. In theory, you can train with someone from the WT lineage, where ever in the world they may be from, and in doing so you can jump into the various CS sections to train specific things.

It's a wonderful idea... in theory...

In practise, things are never so simple

Different people, in different countries, have very different ideas and understanding of the sections. Sometimes it makes you wonder if they understand them at all.

Personally, I've come to the realisation that you need to study from someone who has had serious, extended training time in Hong Kong. Or a very close relationship with someone who has.

The history of Leung Ting's organisation is a long and complicated thing - with lots of little wires that can trip you up if you're not looking carefully at where you're going. I could tell you a few funny stories...

For me, the CS sections are very cleverly constructed and are very useful. The key, IMO, is in almost immediately adding to the mix Gor Sau and Lat Sau training. Even if you've only just started learning the first section. Indeed, even before you get to the first section in your training you should actually know most of what is in that section via various Lap Sau/Lap Kuen exercises. Those too (within a Lap Sau format) should also be be trained with a Gor Sau type method of training.

The CS sections give you examples of ways you can implement the system's body methods and concepts in a Chi Sau setting. The Gor Sau gets you playing freely with these things, and the Lat Sau allows you to understand how you apply those things when you're not starting from a pre-set bridged position (Poon Sau).

Personally, I like to take the CS sections and train parts of them - rather than whole sequences. I like to work on the parts as-is, then play with the ideas behind them outside of the as-is format.

Tricky question to answer. The sections begin from Poon Sau and keep that 'Chi Sau' range - so if you Chi Sau'd with a boxer... sure they work against a boxer.

But seriously, at first glance it would be easy to say "No, they wouldn't work as well", because the attacks, etc, are classical WT punches and palm strikes, etc.

That said, so on second glance, I would say, "Yes, what they teach would work against a boxer." The principles and body methods are what count, at least what count more than the set sequence you run through.

The sections are teaching you about LLHS - LSJC, about opening up lines of attack, about how to control via bridging, how to redirect force, how to affect structure, etc, etc, so these things should be universal - if you know the system well and you've trained it properly, you should be able to use what is inside the sections (the lessons they teach) against a boxer, a mantis guy, a karate dude, etc.

Edit: It goes without saying, of course, that you need the Gor Sau and Lat Sau to accompany the Chi Sau sections. Plus, if you're a train-twice-a-week kinda guy, and you're facing a boxer (or whoever) who trains and fights 5 nights a week... probably you're toast. :lfao:

This is fantastic. I like how your Yongchun chi shou is broken up into cycles and how you have taken that further into compartments. Ruan family is similar to your compartment use. Our progression is basically, Position, Bridge, Control, Hit, Return. Our platforms are Single, Rolling and Circling. Our concepts are Stirring, Running, Leaking and Binding. Inside of that are the bridges, strikes, kicks, locks and throws. We don't have choreographed sequences, hence no need for "Classical Yongchun" structure as it is all concept and principle based movement and reaction, however, for the user it works best inside the framework. Drilling combinations is also very useful, but we do not have specific combinations they are created as situations arise. Sometimes it is necessary to ad lib as most people color outside the lines of Yongchun structure and movement. I like this organic approach as a whole and your breakdown of the cycles in WT are similar in concept to our Intercepting and Joining Hands drills. This method may lead to more muscling and chasing initially but doesn't allow the practitioner to fall slave to the choreography of prearranged sequences. It creates spontaneity of action and reaction. IMO it also allows the practitioner to develop a useful skill set that is complimentary to their preferred fighting style, whether it be striking, grappling, throwing etc.

It's good to see everyone sharing their approach and comparing the similarities and differences without all the "You're wrong. I'm right" attitude. IMO it all comes full circle in the end. Some ways may be quicker than others, some play more defensively some more offensively. In the end it doesn't matter we all have different learning curves and preferences. Find a way that suits you and explore. I've already learned a thing or two from this thread that I'm eager to try out.

 

[BPWT]

It's good to see everyone sharing their approach and comparing the similarities and differences without all the "You're wrong. I'm right" attitude.

To be honest, on other forums I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people... so just wait. I've had some pretty heated discussions with people from the EWTO, too (online and offline).

But by and large, I don't like the "you're wrong, I'm right" line of things. I've met too many people from different lineages of Wing Chun, and from completely different martial arts. I've been impressed by people who train systems that are wildly different to my own. Skill is skill, regardless of system. That said, those crazy EWTO guys... LOL

I'm not familiar, by the way, with Ruanjia Yong Chun Quan. Where can I read a little more about it?

 

[dlcox]

To be honest, on other forums I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people... so just wait. I've had some pretty heated discussions with people from the EWTO, too (online and offline).

But by and large, I don't like the "you're wrong, I'm right" line of things. I've met too many people from different lineages of Wing Chun, and from completely different martial arts. I've been impressed by people who train systems that are wildly different to my own. Skill is skill, regardless of system. That said, those crazy EWTO guys... LOL

I'm not familiar, by the way, with Ruanjia Yong Chun Quan. Where can I read a little more about it?

To be honest there isn't much out there on it. It comes from the older brother of Ruan Kei Shan (Yuan Kay San), his name was Ruan Ji Yun (Yuan Chai Wan). Though both studied from the same individuals, Ruan Ji Yun went south in 1936 to Vietnam, supposedly after killing a man in a fight, and accepted a job teaching martial arts at a Chinese ex-pats association in north Vietnam. This is where my lineage stems from. His brother stayed in China and was undoubtedly influenced by the local martial scene there. Later in life when Ruan Ji Yun traveled to south Vietnam the curriculum was changed as the 5 Animals were introduced to it, southern Vietnamese Vin Xuan is heavily influenced by the Vietnamese martial scene. This is the majority of the material that is present on the net, it looks nothing like what I do for the most part my stuff looks similar to Yu Cai or Ruan Kei Shan Yongchun. I've never studied those branches so I can't comment on them intelligently I can only say that it looks similar, conceptually I don't know the relationship, but would offer a guess that it isn't much different.

 

[Vajramusti]

For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau.
These were developed by him as a way of him codifying his method of WT and allowing him to teach large numbers of people. He knew that students in Hong Kong were doing things the way they were in Europe and US, etc.

Having come from this method of training, I have naturally taught this to my students, but now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's time for a change, at least in my little corner of the world.

I don't teach large numbers of people...I have a group of maybe a dozen. It begs the question then, shouldn't my chi sau be taught from a more traditional standpoint instead of following the "corporate model"?

I would like to hear from not only from WT people but also those of you from other lineages. How do you guys guide your students through chi sau?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I teach the full cycle-single, double, lop, footwork with chi sau, lat sau and gor sao,
Of course I am no where near my sifu in skills. As soon as I get better my sifu has also moved ahead.
Its quite a progression in skill development.It is not fighting but it is a superb path to self defense-
not just against wing chunners.
Interesting- the different versions brought out in this thread.

 

[mook jong man]

In the TST lineage , the progression goes typically like this.

[video=youtube_share;YmcegjzmUq4]http://youtu.be/YmcegjzmUq4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;vCqz0TxMty4]http://youtu.be/vCqz0TxMty4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;JNiiTAb5waE]http://youtu.be/JNiiTAb5waE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;WMvldgGMkcA]http://youtu.be/WMvldgGMkcA[/video]

[video=youtube_share;odyg82cvIbg]http://youtu.be/odyg82cvIbg[/video]

[video=youtube_share;E7jL7z1l7oE]http://youtu.be/E7jL7z1l7oE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;pei68XwKiIc]http://youtu.be/pei68XwKiIc[/video]

 

[KPM]

I personally look at WC forms as your encyclopedia of techniques and the Chi Sau as the method of learning how to apply the techniques and method of gaining sensitivity as well as muscle memory for your reflexes.

WC of course looks best while sparring other WC practitioners that are using WC structure in free sparring and then becomes a bit less Chi Sau/WC looking when they spar a different style/practitioner that has good outside game and reactions.

Yes it works against different styles and like most styles WC is a pretty complete system that has a strategy, concept or technique that can defend or neutralize most striking techniques.

Its a very effective system but what it comes down to is why style is not better but what practitioner is the better fighter/sparrer on that particular day of the match.

My friend I am very familiar with Wing Chun. I've studied three different versions! I know how effective it can be. What I was asking is how effective those particular pre-choreographed Chi Sau sections in LT's version of WT are as far as working against someone NOT doing Wing Chun. ;-)

 

[KPM]

The sections are teaching you about LLHS - LSJC, about opening up lines of attack, about how to control via bridging, how to redirect force, how to affect structure, etc, etc, so these things should be universal - if you know the system well and you've trained it properly, you should be able to use what is inside the sections (the lessons they teach) against a boxer, a mantis guy, a karate dude, etc.

Edit: It goes without saying, of course, that you need the Gor Sau and Lat Sau to accompany the Chi Sau sections.

--I see what you're saying. But I'm wondering if just doing the Gor Sau & Lat Sau against partners feeding something other than Wing Chun might be more productive. What you describe sounds like a pretty involved process to me.