Chi Sau & Grappling

guy b

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Bjj is just a drill to refine your ground work for mna.

But it also has application. They are not mutually exclusive.

Otherwise the strategy has probably evolved from VT a bit by the time it gets to grappling application.

BJJ is not a drill, it is a system. The movements of BJJ are directly applicable to fighting, the movements of chi sau not.
 
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KPM

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Hand fighting in grappling and chi sau are the opposite of each other. Entirely useless for grappling.

Maybe Chi Sau as conceptualized in WSLVT. But again, I think the problem here is the one that is repeated over and over. Guy is talking specifically about the way they do Chi Sau in WSLVT, while everyone else is just talking about Chi Sau in general.
 

guy b

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Maybe Chi Sau as conceptualized in WSLVT. But again, I think the problem here is the one that is repeated over and over. Guy is talking specifically about the way they do Chi Sau in WSLVT, while everyone else is just talking about Chi Sau in general.

Correct, other systems may differ.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Bjj is just a drill to refine your ground work for mna.

But it also has application. They are not mutually exclusive.

Otherwise the strategy has probably evolved from VT a bit by the time it gets to grappling application.
That's an interesting interpretation. So, we could use the word "drill" for any physical (in this case) practice that has a final motive outside the repetitive practice. Yeah, I can see where even free-rolling in BJJ - considered over the long run - is repetitive enough to fit that description when the end goal is MMA competition. And that same comparison could be generalized to shorter drills.

A bit of a reach, but you make a good point with it. Drills may or may not be directly applicable (chi sau arguably isn't, BJJ arguably is), but they can still produce results in application.
 

Transk53

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That's an interesting interpretation. So, we could use the word "drill" for any physical (in this case) practice that has a final motive outside the repetitive practice. Yeah, I can see where even free-rolling in BJJ - considered over the long run - is repetitive enough to fit that description when the end goal is MMA competition. And that same comparison could be generalized to shorter drills.

A bit of a reach, but you make a good point with it. Drills may or may not be directly applicable (chi sau arguably isn't, BJJ arguably is), but they can still produce results in application.

So really in competition, the drills are always about how the fighter approaches things. Always wondered if a fighter can actually improve with drills. For example the left hook could be weak, to the point of constantly innfective. Could constant drilling really affect that, or would just polishing to the point on a basic level. Just curious on you're take on that?
 

Gerry Seymour

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So really in competition, the drills are always about how the fighter approaches things. Always wondered if a fighter can actually improve with drills. For example the left hook could be weak, to the point of constantly innfective. Could constant drilling really affect that, or would just polishing to the point on a basic level. Just curious on you're take on that?
If someone is weak on a basic area - like a jab for a competitor - where it is affecting their outcome, some type of drill seems almost a requirement. Perhaps a variety of drills that require the use of that weak area, improving both the form (making the jab better, more effective) and the application (recognition of where it should be used, incorporating it into combinations, etc.).
 
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KPM

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Correct, other systems may differ.

So what Guy is saying....is that in WSLVT the system has been optimized to deliver the punch. Chi Sau is all about setting up for and clearing the way for the punch. It would not fit the strategy of the system to try and use Chi Sau as a form of grappling or even as a transition to grappling because this is not needed for delivering the punch. Anything done other than clearing the way for the punch is "chasing hands" by WSLVT definition..... and this would include trying to achieve any kind of arm drag, tie up, joint lock, etc. These things are not needed nor desirable if your one goal and intent is to land the punch. Guy is also saying that if he cannot successfully land the punch and is forced into a grappling situation he is going to switch to his BJJ training, because BJJ is a much better grappling system than anything derived from Wing Chun. And this is true.

Other versions of Wing Chun may not have this specifically designed strategy for the fight, and so may see things more broadly and therefore use their Chi Sau a bit differently. Nothing wrong with that!
 

drop bear

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So what Guy is saying....is that in WSLVT the system has been optimized to deliver the punch. Chi Sau is all about setting up for and clearing the way for the punch. It would not fit the strategy of the system to try and use Chi Sau as a form of grappling or even as a transition to grappling because this is not needed for delivering the punch. Anything done other than clearing the way for the punch is "chasing hands" by WSLVT definition..... and this would include trying to achieve any kind of arm drag, tie up, joint lock, etc. These things are not needed nor desirable if your one goal and intent is to land the punch. Guy is also saying that if he cannot successfully land the punch and is forced into a grappling situation he is going to switch to his BJJ training, because BJJ is a much better grappling system than anything derived from Wing Chun. And this is true.

Other versions of Wing Chun may not have this specifically designed strategy for the fight, and so may see things more broadly and therefore use their Chi Sau a bit differently. Nothing wrong with that!

Yeah some systems have evolved the chi sau concept to different aplications.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah some systems have evolved the chi sau concept to different aplications.
With Chi Shou as the starting point, you should be able to modify it into many useful training drills.

For example, when both of your arms contact with both of your opponent's arms, if you can

1. separate hands - use a left downward parry, followed by an upper ward wrap, along with a right comb hair,
2. mantis arms - put your both hands on top of his both elbow joints,
3. arms jam - put your right hand on his right wrist, put your left hand on his right elbow joint, guide his right arm to his left (your right), and jam his own left arm,
4. arm tuck - use your right hand to control his left wrist, use your left hand to control his right wrist, guide his left arm under his own right arm, press his right arm on his left arm, free your right hand,
5. ...

You can execute almost any attack after that. Do those drills exist in any MA system? May be not. But it should not stop you from creating it yourself.
 
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wingchun100

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The thing is, I don't think anyone argued Chi Sao training is a replacement for learning a grappling style. I don't recall what everyone said specifically, but I do know that the point I was making is the sensitivity from Chi Sao could HELP if you were facing a grappler.
 

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It's much harder to use "short range boxing guard" to wrap your opponent's arms to establish a successful clinch than to use the "long range WC Tan Shou guard".

When you use

- "boxing guard", your arms are too close to your own head. When your opponent's punches arrives, those punches are too fast and too powerful.
- "WC Tan Shou", your hand is far away from your head and near your opponent's head, when your opponent punches, you can use your Tan Shou to interrupt his punches during his "initial punching stage" before his can generate speed and power.

The WC Tan Shou can help you to extend your arm between your opponent's arm and his head and separate his arm away from his body.

I agree that after the clinch is established, there won't be any difference whether you may come from WC or boxing. It's how to switch from heavy punches mode into clinch mode that can make a big difference.

I disagree. I want my arms close to my head, in fact, hands on my hairline. I can close on the boxer and absorb his strikes with my arms. Once my forearms or shoulder are on his body, I can clinch pretty safely. Yes, I have tested this.

I don't want my arms away from my body with tan sao etc. because IMO it gives the opponent too many opportunities to close and clinch.

Bjj is just a drill to refine your ground work for mna.

Seriously? I've got a black belt in a drill to refine my groundwork for MMA? (Unless "mna" is something different). All the Gracie Combatives, and the standing self defense techniques I learned from Steve Maxwell and many others are just drills for MMA?
 
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anerlich

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Note that the neck control he likes to use is right out of the dummy form.

It's a collar tie right out of wrestling. Most people's dummy neck controls don't make use of the elbow the way he does in the vid, like wrestlers and MT fighters do.
 

drop bear

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Seriously? I've got a black belt in a drill to refine my groundwork for MMA? (Unless "mna" is something different). All the Gracie Combatives, and the standing self defense techniques I learned from Steve Maxwell and many others are just drills for MMA?

Yep.....

If it is any consolation there are chi sau champions out there as well.
 

guy b

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Suffice to say many would disagree with you. Except about the chi sao champions.

Pointless trolling from drop bear who undoubtedly has spent very little time doing either mma, bjj or ving tsun and most of his time having silly arguments on forums
 
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KPM

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It's a collar tie right out of wrestling. Most people's dummy neck controls don't make use of the elbow the way he does in the vid, like wrestlers and MT fighters do.

Ok. But that is how I learned it. The neck pull dropping in the elbow between the arms of the dummy.
 

wckf92

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Ok. But that is how I learned it. The neck pull dropping in the elbow between the arms of the dummy.

I learned it similarly...but it is more of a sinking of your horse tied with/to a downward pulling elbow (simultaneously )
...Sadly, there are some who throw their butt backwards away from the jong when performing this movement.
 
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