How do you train chi sau?

[Marnetmar]

In my school none of our chi sau is pre-arranged. I can see the use of a pre-arranged drill when the student first begins to learn it though, so the student can get a better hold on what tool to use and where; it seems like it would speed up the learning process quite a bit.

 

[Marnetmar]

Oh by the way, the guy in the video needs to keep his elbows in more

(I wish the edit feature on this form didn't have a timer on it)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What I was asking is how effective those particular pre-choreographed Chi Sau sections in LT's version of WT are as far as working against someone NOT doing Wing Chun. ;-)

Allow me to take my WC hat off at this moment (I started my WC training since 1973). When I spar, the moment that my arm contact with my opponent's arm,

if I put my

- striker hat on, I will bounce my opponent's arm away. This way, after I have collect enough information through the "bridge", I want to destroy that bridge ASAP so my opponent won't be able to collect any information from me.
- grappler hat on, my arm will be like a snake that wrap around on my opponent's arm.

Now, let me put my WC hat back on again. As a WC guy, how should I deal with these 2 situation? Does my solution exist in my WC Chi Shou training?

 

[dlcox]

Allow me to take my WC hat off at this moment (I started my WC training since 1973). When I spar, the moment that my arm contact with my opponent's arm,

if I put my

- striker hat on, I will bounce my opponent's arm away. This way, after I have collect enough information through the "bridge", I want to destroy that bridge ASAP so my opponent won't be able to collect any information from me.
- grappler hat on, my arm will be like a snake that wrap around on my opponent's arm.

Now, let me put my WC hat back on again. As a WC guy, how should I deal with these 2 situation? Does my solution exist in my WC Chi Shou training?

Hi John,

IMO you already have the solution. As far as I'm concerned the Striker/Grappler approach that you described can be done while engaged in Chi Shou, so why change your methodolgy to try and conform to anothers ideals of Chi Shou. Approach the strike as a grappler would and the grapple as a striker would.

My Thoughts on Yong Chun / Chi Shou Practice

One of the major problems with Yong Chun is the theories employed by the various lineages. Just like the 5 Element theory in TCM, I have yet to see two traditional practitioners agree on how the elements interact with the organs let alone see two charts from different schools that describe or correlate the same processes. Everyone has their own interpretation and everyone thinks that they are correct. So, just as no two schools of TCM approach the theory the same, no two schools of Yong Chun approach theory the same. I'm sure if I were to list the key words of my lineage that only 50% of the foundational theory would be in common with other branches. IMO there is no right or wrong or better than. Chi Shou is a very personal type of training that each practitioner needs to understand and make work for themselves. One should not blindly follow along a path they know is going in a direction that they have no faith in getting them to their destination. Some will play Chi Shou like a grappler, some a striker, some will approach it with a Taiji mind others a Xingyi mind. It all comes down to personal preference and what you can make work to get your desired results. Some practitioners will get it right away some won't, and as with all things, some will agree it is correct some will not. In the end the only thing that matters is if you can make it work to your advantage. The reason why so many fail in the application of their art is because they supress their natural response and try to conform to how they were taught to respond. We are individuals, with individual thought patterns and approach situations differently. Use the concepts, theories and principles in a way that you understand and works for you. Not in a way that is understood and works for the individual who taught it to you. No one lineage or person has all the answers, the best we can do is try, the worst we can do is fail. We can all learn from our triumphs as well as our failures. The foundation set forth by our teachers is only the beginning of our journey, at some point we need to leave the nest and explore the world on our own unimpeded by the regulation of those that reared us. This doesn't mean we abandon what we've been taught, but instead use that to forge our individuality. Evolution should first and foremost be a personal quest and the key lies in understanding of self. Too often have I seen just the opposite of this in Yong Chun, propogated by individuals who want nothing more than to supress and control those who do not agree with their understanding. The reasons why, I'm sure, are numerous. At some point we must "Graduate" and start applying what was learned in the field of work we choose to make a "Living" in.

 

[BPWT]

I see what you're saying. But I'm wondering if just doing the Gor Sau & Lat Sau against partners feeding something other than Wing Chun might be more productive. What you describe sounds like a pretty involved process to me.

It certainly would be productive to do as you say, and you're right also in saying that the process we have in the LT system is "involved."

But before I came to the LT system, I trained another Yip Man lineage system. They had no sections, though you did learn a few basic Chi Sau partner drills. After that, it was all about playing freely (Gor Sau).

To be sure, some of those guys were pretty good. Still, I felt there was something lacking in the Chi Sau there. People who were higher graded than I was, were better than me (duh! ). But I always wondered how much better: they did exactly what I did when Chi Sau'ing (so pretty basic attacks and an over-reliance on Bong/Lap ), only they had more experience with it than I did.

From meeting some LTWT guys, and doing some Chi Sau with them... well, for me it was like chalk and cheese. They seemed to have a far better understanding of using their system's principles and body methods in their Chi Sau (and also in their Lat Sau, of course). The forms are full of so many things (techniques/motions, body methods, concepts), and the WT guys seemed to be able to use that in their Chi Sau. And use it fairly instinctively as an exchange developed.

In my earlier group/organisation I was at Chum Kiu level (knew the form, kinda sucked at it), but when I Chi Sau'd with that group's instructors (who also knew Biu Tse and the Dummy and had far more experience with CK), none of that knowledge seemed to come out.

Doing well against them in Gor Sau was a nice stroke to the ego, LOL, but I always had this nagging thought - I knew that I shouldn't be doing quite so well against them. If I've trained for say 3 years, and they've trained for 7 or 8 years... things should be far from fairly evenly matched in Chi Sau (IMO).


So I agree that it is not an absolute requirement to have sections like the ones LT came up with, but they do offer something really valuable - they make sure that students are understanding how to use what is in the forms when they Chi Sau.

Of course, the sections are largely WT vs WT. To me that isn't really too much of a problem. At a Chris Collins seminar last year he made an interesting point. Essentially he was saying that when you Chi Sau don't worry too much about what a boxer would do, or a Silat guy, or a Karate guy. You're a Wing Tsun guy, so focus on using your system. An open line of attack is an open line of attack - regardless of who is in front of you. A bridge is a bridge. Keeping forward pressure and intent should be used whomever you are fighting. But, essentially, the Chi Sau sections are not about as-is applications you would try and use specifically against a certain attack (or a certain type of attacker - e.g. a right cross from a boxer). They are more about understanding how you use your Wing Tsun.

 

[KPM]

Good answer! Thanks BPWT! :cheers:

 

[yak sao]

when you Chi Sau don't worry too much about what a boxer would do, or a Silat guy, or a Karate guy. You're a Wing Tsun guy, so focus on using your system. An open line of attack is an open line of attack - regardless of who is in front of you. A bridge is a bridge. Keeping forward pressure and intent should be used whomever you are fighting. But, essentially, the Chi Sau sections are not about as-is applications you would try and use specifically against a certain attack (or a certain type of attacker - e.g. a right cross from a boxer). They are more about understanding how you use your Wing Tsun.

Very well put.

Now the trick becomes getting away from a stylistic movement. In other words, stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting. WT is not using a tan sau or a bong sau, if you do it this way then you are taking something that was meant to be fluid, vibrant action and making it a dead technique.
Which swings me back to my original post. The sections are an excellent teaching method. They teach your body how to move and apply/dissolve forces placed upon it. Where people mess up is they stop with the sections and become so engrossed in them that they stay on the diving board instead of using them to spring into the pool and swim.

 

[dlcox]

Don't know if anyone else does this or not so if you do please feel free to chime in.

Some free drills I like to do in Chi Shou are:

1. Chi Shou with focus only on trapping, no other techniques permitted.

2. Chi Shou with focus on throwing, no other techniques permitted.

3. Chi Shou with focus on locking, no other techniques permitted.

4. Chi Shou with focus on striking, no other techniques permitted.

I find that by breaking it apart that it still allows for all the same work defensively but forces the practitioner to work specific offenses in which they may be deficient in and defenses for that matter. I will also break this down further and only allow 1, 2 or 3 specific techniques to be applied. I find this to be especially useful when a student is learning a new technique as it allows equal opportunity for veteran vs. newbie students without all the extra "noise" being displayed. Usually this is engaged from the Ya Yao (Twisting Waist) exercise. Once they have a feel for the techniques; ex: 2 throws, 2 locks, 2 traps, 2 strikes, I have them engage in free form Chi Shou using only those techniques. It's a fun way to break things up and I feel it's a a nice progression towards "Anything Goes" Chi Shou and makes the practitioner focus on a way to make the technique/application work for them without having to worry about a surprise elbow, knee etc. that isn't allowed in the series coming in.

 

[Danny T]

Now the trick becomes getting away from a stylistic movement. In other words, stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting.

BOOM!! Stop thinking about WT as a "style" of fighting.
WT/WC is a training method. A method of learning about yourself, your body, your usage of your body. It Is NOT a style of fighting. Once you learn to use your body the how you do so is up to the individual. If you use a Tan to deflect or a Jut is all dependent upon what you feel, what is the relationship between you and the opponent/s. How you survive is all up to you and no one particular method.
Chi Sao is but one learning tool with in the WC pedagogy and it is important just as learning footwork is important, just as learning body positioning and to give and receive pressure is important.
We use different levels to train Chi Sao. Learning the roll and what causes it. Creating the pressure, learning to receive and deflect the pressure, Learning to feel the openings within the movements and positions. Learning to attack the openings. Learning to counter and counter-attack the attacks; and so on.

Train the method, practice the method, understand the method, move beyond the method.

 

[Vajramusti]

Wow tough to describe in a few words. In Ruan family we use 3 formats. Single Sticking Hands to Rolling Hands to Circling Hands. There are many preparation drills prior to each section. Each is based on the 3 families Tan, Fu & Bang. Once one learns proper structure, bridge usage and theory they progress through the formats. There are no real cycles to speak of as I like to keep it spontaneous and organic. I think this makes the student focus more on structure, theory and practical use as compared to coreographed sequences that turn in slap fighting. It admittedly takes longer to learn and there is a tendency for students to muscle the technique, but the trade off is practicality under heavy duress. Just as with everything else the more it is drilled the more sensitivity and finesse is developed. Ruan family is about what you learn today you use today. It follows an older mind set on training of learning realistic practical movement first then work towards polishing. It is cruder and not as pretty as some other branches of chi shou that I've seen but IMO just as effective. It looks similar to hand fighting in grappling. As time progresses one learns when to yield or press as needed along with subtle structure checks and manipulations. I would classify Ruan family as Iron Bridge style, not unlike a cross between Hongjia and Taijiquan. It is definately like Iron Wire tension, which is required for the heavy grappling aspect. More constricter than viper. All formats start stationary then progress to moving.

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At first I did not understand what Ruan was. Another spelling of Yuan. I now have a better sense of what you do.
A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.

 

[KPM]

Don't know if anyone else does this or not so if you do please feel free to chime in.

Some free drills I like to do in Chi Shou are:

.

Hey Dave!

Can you describe the basic rolling platform you use? I'm wondering if it is the same as the Ip Man rolling or is more similar to what we do in Pin Sun.

 

[kung fu fighter]

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A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.

Joy are you referring to Kiet Pham?

 

[dlcox]

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At first I did not understand what Ruan was. Another spelling of Yuan. I now have a better sense of what you do.
A good friend of mine is Vietnamese. he knows both Northern and Southern Yuen Kay Shan's older brothers
wing chun but shifted and learned very good Ip man wing chun.

Hi Joy,

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone. I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background, by the way, thanks for the dig at my art, I hope that wasn't intended as it came across.

 

[dlcox]

Hey Dave!

Can you describe the basic rolling platform you use? I'm wondering if it is the same as the Ip Man rolling or is more similar to what we do in Pin Sun.

My basic rolling platform is one person assumes the Tan & Bang positions the other double Fu positions, the same as Ip Man. I think that my circling hand platform my be the same as Pin Sun's rolling hand position, just named differently. The hand positions are various combinations of "Sickle Hands", double inside, double outside, left in & out, right in & out. Similar to SPM seeking hands, I believe it is quite close to the Pin Sun platform from what I've seen.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy,

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone. I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background, by the way, thanks for the dig at my art, I hope that wasn't intended as it came across.

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No dig intended at all.. The internet is tone and nuance deaf. creating imptessions that are not necessarily true.

 

[geezer]

For those of you who don't know me, I train in the Leung Ting lineage of Wing Tsun, though I am no longer affiliated with his organization.
LT Wing Tsun teaches chi sau by way of sections. These are prearranged 2 man sets that are designed to teach the student chi sau...

Having come from this method of training, I have naturally taught this to my students, but now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's time for a change, at least in my little corner of the world.

I don't teach large numbers of people...I have a group of maybe a dozen. It begs the question then, shouldn't my chi sau be taught from a more traditional standpoint instead of following the "corporate model"?

Yak, I've been pondering the same question. The basic concept of the "Chi-Sau Sections" is sound. It's a lot like learning a foreign language by practicing prepared dialogues. It's a tried and proven way to practice vocabulary, grammar and syntax, but it will only take you so far.

I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication.

I think Chi Sau is a lot like a verbal exchange, ranging from having a polite conversation, a lively debate or even a heated argument. Too much emphasis on prepared dialogues as compared to functional communication may be counterproductive.

So when it comes to Chi Sau, yes, I still teach the basic sections, but I try to simplify. Over the years, LT, KK and others have added on so many additional sessions and movement-counter movement cycles that it is honestly beyond me to keep it all straight in my head. Maybe that approach works better over in Europe where there are tons of schools and instructors who can all work together. Personally, I'm more interested in simple functionality.

BTW for those of you unfamiliar with Leung Ting's choreographed Chi-Sau training drills or "sections" here is an example posted by some guys who are not in LT's organization, but who show it pretty much as I learned it from LT:

Somehow these instructors seemed familiar. What do you think?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I prefer using Pinyin because of my northern background,

Same here!

You have to kill me in order to force me to use "Sau" instead of to use "Shou". :burp:

 

[yak sao]

I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication.

You know, to be fair, those same kids probably weren't getting many dates back home either

 

[dlcox]

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No dig intended at all.. The internet is tone and nuance deaf. creating imptessions that are not necessarily true.

Thank you for the clarification Joy, I appreciate it.

I would be curious to know why your friend decided to switch methods. I could make assumptions based on the history of the Vietnamese line as it can be quite suspect, but would like to hear it instead of speculate.

 

[yak sao]

Yak, I've been pondering the same question. The basic concept of the "Chi-Sau Sections" is sound. It's a lot like learning a foreign language by practicing prepared dialogues. It's a tried and proven way to practice vocabulary, grammar and syntax, but it will only take you so far.

I knew kids back in my high school Spanish classes that could actually memorize batches of these dialogues perfectly. I could never do that. But when we actually went to Mexico, I was with the kids who played stick-ball with a group of Mexican kids our age, snuck off and got beer and cigarettes (this was the 70s after all), and went on a date with a Mexican girl. On the other hand, some of those A students with the perfect "dialogues" never got the hang of imperfect but functional communication.

I think Chi Sau is a lot like a verbal exchange, ranging from having a polite conversation, a lively debate or even a heated argument. Too much emphasis on prepared dialogues as compared to functional communication may be counterproductive.

So when it comes to Chi Sau, yes, I still teach the basic sections, but I try to simplify. Over the years, LT, KK and others have added on so many additional sessions and movement-counter movement cycles that it is honestly beyond me to keep it all straight in my head. Maybe that approach works better over in Europe where there are tons of schools and instructors who can all work together. Personally, I'm more interested in simple functionality.

Simplification really is the key point. As much respect as I have for LT's and KK's knowledge and ability, I think so much of what they developed was about creating a need so that it could be filled.
The original simplicity of the sections were enough, I think, to get people moving in the right direction.

By always having more and more for them to learn, people become hooked on the "Wing Tsun drug", as I've heard LT put it, and keep coming back for a fix.