PAK SAU .... The elbow or the wrist ?

[mook jong man]

Against an incoming straight punch , where abouts on the opponents arm do you lot in the various lineages parry?
In TST lineage we parry the wrist , but I have since found out that some lineages parry the elbow.

I will outline why I feel it is better to parry the wrist later when I have some more time , but I am curious as to how other lineages approach this most basic of Wing Chun techniques.

 

[Danny T]

Where am I in relation to the opponent? At what distance am I?
If I am directly in front of the opponent and am making the first connection on the outside I prefer to pak closer to the middle of the forearm. If am off angled I prefer just above the elbow. If having to counter an attack from the inside at the wrist.

 

[mook jong man]

Where am I in relation to the opponent? At what distance am I?
If I am directly in front of the opponent and am making the first connection on the outside I prefer to pak closer to the middle of the forearm. If am off angled I prefer just above the elbow. If having to counter an attack from the inside at the wrist.

Lets just say for arguments sake , he is directly in front of you.
He moves in from close range with a straight punch right down your centerline , and you have no time to step out an angle either.

 

[Vajramusti]

Against an incoming straight punch , where abouts on the opponents arm do you lot in the various lineages parry?
In TST lineage we parry the wrist , but I have since found out that some lineages parry the elbow.

I will outline why I feel it is better to parry the wrist later when I have some more time , but I am curious as to how other lineages approach this most basic of Wing Chun techniques.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pak sao is one use of motion and energy. IMO-If you distinguish between development and application-
for development you control a person via contact at the bridge- kiu. I application the closest available
contact point of the other person- could be wrist, elbow, shoulder , jaw,neck, head etc.

 

[OzPaul]

I have been taught to Pak the forearm/wrist around where you wear a watch. Slightly passed the wrist. From my limited experience I find this to do the trick as if a punch is thrown with proper intent it is quite hard to change into an elbow if the wrist is pak'd. If the opponent stepped at you and you pak the wrist I can see how it could turn into an elbow but that would take considerable skill in the heat of a fight

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In TST lineage we parry the wrist , but I have since found out that some lineages parry the elbow.

If you parry on the

- wrist, the advantage is your opponent's wrist is closer to you. The dis-advantage is your opponent's elbow can still bend and strike at your chest.
- elbow, the advantage is your opponent's elbow cannot hit you. The dis-advantage is your opponent's elbow is farther away from you.

IMO, the elbow parry is much more effective than the wrist parry. It will give your opponent less options to deal with your parry. You can move his whole arm by parrying at his elbow (or upper arm). You can't do that by parrying at his wrist (or forearm).

 

[mook jong man]

If you parry on the

- wrist, the advantage is your opponent's wrist is closer to you. The dis-advantage is your opponent's elbow can still bend and strike at your chest.
- elbow, the advantage is your opponent's elbow cannot hit you. The dis-advantage is your opponent's elbow is further away from you.

I hear this all the time about the punch turning into an elbow , that would only be possible if you were completely passive and only did the parry without a punch going out at the same time.
If your parry and punch is simultaneous as it should be , then your punch will hit him before he can get into range for the elbow strike.

Besides , people are usually committed to the one action , either punch or elbow strike , not a liitle bit of both.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I hear this all the time about the punch turning into an elbow , that would only be possible if you were completely passive and only did the parry without a punch going out at the same time.
If your parry and punch is simultaneous as it should be , then your punch will hit him before he can get into range for the elbow strike.

Besides , people are usually committed to the one action , either punch or elbow strike , not a liitle bit of both.

Sometime, we may have time to parry, but we may not have time to punch back right at that moment. This is why we don't see "parry and strike back at the same time" that often in real life. It's good principle and goal that we all want to achieve though.

We are talking about "parry" here that your opponent punches at you and you deal with it. That mean how fast, how much commitment on his initial punch is totally decided by him.

Most of the initial punch are fake.

- When your opponent punches at you (it can be just a set up),
- When he sees your hand try to parry his punch, his punching arm elbow already starts to bend (this is why he can be faster than you because he initial his set up).
- If you parry at his wrist, his back hand can "parry your parry" (since he is waiting for you parry, he is one step ahead of you). He can then
- drop his elbow right at your chest. If you move your body forward, you may even run your chest into his elbow.

That elbow range elbow strike is very powerful and very hard to deal with it. I prefer not to give my opponent that change to do so. IMO, it's always better to prevent a problem from happening than to let a problem to happen and then try to fix that problem afterward.

 

[Vajramusti]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pak sao is one use of motion and energy. IMO-If you distinguish between development and application-
for development you control a person via contact at the bridge- kiu. I application the closest available
contact point of the other person- could be wrist, elbow, shoulder , jaw,neck, head etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In practicing development of pak sao- there is a reason why the bridge(kiu) is important. By controlling the bridge properly you can control

elbow, wrist and body structure balancing.If your own structure and motion is good you can control a powerful elbow motion-not just theory-
I know folks who di it regularly...including yours truly.

Learning to control the bridge is imo a god wing chun idea.

 

[BPWT]

In my lineage, Pak Sau is more a forward movement (not a side-to-side movement) and should go towards the opponent's center. For us it should really jam up the opponent and seal that side of their body... so affect their structure and really hamper the range of motion of the opponent's attacking arm. For this reason, for us, it should ideally be closer to the elbow than to the wrist. (I think contact at the wrist would affect their structure less and leave their striking arm 'still in play')

In our line, Pak should also be combined with a simultaneous strike. e.g. Pak and Punch, rather than Pak then Punch...

 

[BPWT]

Learning to control the bridge is imo a god wing chun idea.

Absolutely. IMO, this is the heart of Wing Tsun.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Against an incoming straight punch , where abouts on the opponents arm do you lot in the various lineages parry?
In TST lineage we parry the wrist , but I have since found out that some lineages parry the elbow.

I will outline why I feel it is better to parry the wrist later when I have some more time , but I am curious as to how other lineages approach this most basic of Wing Chun techniques.

In Fut Sao lineage they never pak at the wrist because that opens it up with a continued elbow strike. I pak at the wrist and elbow it depends on the distance. When you pak at the elbow it turns him so in a sense its better,but at long distance not practical.
e

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we look at the following clip, either person can have opportunity to

- "collapse" his arm structure,
- bend his elbow, and
- smash his elbow to his opponent's head or chest.

 

[mook jong man]

Sometime, we may have time to parry, but we may not have time to punch back right at that moment. This is why we don't see "parry and strike back at the same time" that often in real life. It's good principle and goal that we all want to achieve though.

We are talking about "parry" here that your opponent punches at you and you deal with it. That mean how fast, how much commitment on his initial punch is totally decided by him.

Most of the initial punch are fake.

- When your opponent punches at you (it can be just a set up),
- When he sees your hand try to parry his punch, his punching arm elbow already starts to bend (this is why he can be faster than you because he initial his set up).
- If you parry at his wrist, his back hand can "parry your parry" (since he is waiting for you parry, he is one step ahead of you). He can then
- drop his elbow right at your chest. If you move your body forward, you may even run your chest into his elbow.

That elbow range elbow strike is very powerful and very hard to deal with it. I prefer not to give my opponent that change to do so. IMO, it's always better to prevent a problem from happening than to let a problem to happen and then try to fix that problem afterward.

It doesn't matter if his punch is fake , your punch is still going out regardless.
You only fall prey to these faking techniques, if you remain passive and don't counter with an offensive technique in conjunction with your deflection.

 

[Argus]

I'll just copy paste my response in the previous thread, as I'm curious to hear your response:

As long as one of your hands is chasing center, that's good. But, your opponent has another hand as well. That's why I believe it's always preferable to chase center with both hands whenever possible, so that either is a direct threat.

Maybe we're arguing apples and oranges though. It sounds like you're describing pak-sau from a point of contact, where his hand is already in contact with your guard. That is the best way to use pak-sau, and in that case, you can feel where he is definitively thanks to the contact you've made. I was refering more to the use of pak-sau in an out-of-contact context, as demonstrated in the video. It is not uncommon for me, at least, to find myself hitting thin air with another fist in my face upon trying to enter on someone with pak-da, for example. A fighter will often just pull his forward hand back and hit you with the other. That's what's dangerous about chasing the wrist while out of contact, I believe.

Incidentally, the same is true of intercepting round attacks on the inside. A lot of people try to intercept them at the wrist, but I feel that's far too risky. It's safer if your priorities go: step in, hit him, cover the line. You'll usually catch him around the elbow this way, but still with plenty of structure to avoid being hit yourself. And the important thing, of course, is that you're hitting him and disrupting his attack that way. Chasing the wrist, you have to turn further away from your opponent, and are more committed towards chasing his attack. Not only can you miss if he changes the line of his attack, but if you fail to connect with your punch, you're in a bad position for his follow up as you have more distance to turn.



Tok-sau. Get up underneath him
But, generally speaking, if his arms are fully extending to reach you, then his elbow will be somewhere around the half-way point. That allows you to intercept the elbow with a bent arm. At the same time, you should be moving in on him to counter, which further shortens the distance.
Usually you want to intercept before he's fully extending his fist to you, but we are talking about pressing the elbow, and generally, the best opportunity to do that is when your opponent's arm is fully extended and he has a weak structure anyway.
But I'm with you here. If you're over extending your arm to reach his elbow, you're putting yourself in danger.

I honestly don't think much about where I'm intercepting. I just close the line, threaten the opponent, and respond to pressure. And if an elbow presents itself, press it.

 

[dlcox]

In my branch we focus on elbow to wrist in a sliding fashion with forward pressure. The reasoning is that by focusing strickly on wrist one can potentially mis-time the counter and miss the hand completely if too fast to react. But if too slow to react by focusing on the elbow instead of wrist one increases the chance to atleast catch the elbow. In short we focus on the middle of the bridge as an ideal contact point. Also by going from elbow to wrist you can expodentially increase your chances of a grab.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my branch we focus on elbow to wrist in a sliding fashion with forward pressure.

This 45 degree or 30 degree toward yourself parry approach is much better than the 90 degree parry approach. It mainly "redirect" your opponent's punch in a small angle so his punch will pass next to your face. Many CMA styles call this kind of parry as "combing the hair".

When my opponent punches at me, I like to use

1. one hand to parry on his wrist first,
2. one hand to parry on his elbow next (prevent his elbow strike),
3. I then change my wrist parry hand into a punch.

 

[Argus]

In my branch we focus on elbow to wrist in a sliding fashion with forward pressure. The reasoning is that by focusing strickly on wrist one can potentially mis-time the counter and miss the hand completely if too fast to react. But if too slow to react by focusing on the elbow instead of wrist one increases the chance to atleast catch the elbow. In short we focus on the middle of the bridge as an ideal contact point. Also by going from elbow to wrist you can expodentially increase your chances of a grab.

I've heard that described before. The chinaboxer has described this in some of his videos, I believe. I've also heard of some people who try to contact the middle of the arm, neither at the wrist nor the elbow. But, I like the method that you describe.

This 45 degree or 30 degree toward yourself parry approach is much better than the 90 degree parry approach. It mainly "redirect" your opponent's punch in a small angle so his punch will pass next to your face. Many CMA styles call this kind of parry as "combing the hair".

When my opponent punches at me, I like to use

1. one hand to parry on his wrist first,
2. one hand to parry on his elbow next (prevent his elbow strike),
3. I then change my wrist parry hand into a punch.

I tend to use that movement against high punches towards the face in a sort of "dodge and slip" manner. It's nice as it can be more subtle, and you can avoid over committing and opening a new line for your opponent. But your example prescribes three motions to deal with one. That's not very efficient...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But your example prescribes three motions to deal with one. That's not very efficient...

You are right!

- 1 is faster (efficient) than 1,2, and 1,2 is faster (efficient) than 1,2,3, but
- 1,2,3 is safer than 1,2, and 1,2 is safer than 1.

That's the trade off. When you apply 1,2,3 combo, you won't commit your punch 3 until both of your parry 1 and parry 2 are successful.

 

[mook jong man]

l would say the main reason we parry at the wrist area is because it just takes a whole lot less effort , get a big strong brute of a man to hold his arm out and due to simple leverage it takes less effort to move his wrist than what it does his elbow.
The reason being that his elbow is closer to his power structure ie (his body) so it takes more force to move it.

Now some would say that an experiment like this is flawed because a punch in motion is different than somebody just rigidly holding their arm out , that maybe so but I tend to think it is a pretty close approximation to the forces involved.

Parrying at the wrist also gives you the option of bringing your legs into play for chain kicking , you are at the perfect range to use low heel kicks with the parry or after the parry latching on with the other hand and dragging the opponent into a hook kicks and stamp kicks.

People are under the impression that by parrying the elbow you have the opponents arm under control , this is far from the truth.
Anyone who's been around for a while and has done a fair bit of chi sau knows that there are simple counters to someone trying to manipulate your elbow .

One is to simply cut down and sink the elbow thus changing the relationship of his force to your arm , another one I have used in the past from Biu Jee is where I let them push on my elbow and let my arm scribe a small circle before it comes back around and palm strikes them in the side of the head , usually catches them quite unawares.
It is also possible that they may let you parry the elbow and convert it into a shoulder charge.

This is not to say we never parry the elbow , under certain circumstances we do , such as when attempting to break through an opponents guard when his wrist is high and his elbow is on the centerline.
But generally speaking whether used against an incoming straight punch or as an entry technique the point of contact is usually as OzPaul said where you would wear your watch.