Chi-Sau from lineage to lineage....

[PiedmontChun]

Geezer's recent posts on another thread regarding WT (and the EWTO)'s method of teaching organized chi-sau "sections" got me thinking. My nominal WC experience is limited to practicing WT that is downstream of Kerspecht and the EWTO, and its all I really know.

I am curious what other lineages do to bridge that gap that exists between learning the forms, and being able to flow and work with another person in unscripted chi-sau / lat sau? At what stage do you have students learn to just double arm roll or poon sau? Do students move on straight to gor sau once they can roll / stick? Do you have specific drills you work off of to introduce the various ways to attack and dissolve? What helps students learn to chain together movements and "flow"?

I see and think of the WT chi-sau sections as sort of a two-man form. Just like you practice the forms solo to train critical limb positioning, etc then likewise, the WT chi-sau sections let you train movements in response to another's force, and correct / train responses in an organized way. For me, even though I'm not super analytical, it seems to help me break down and understand the mechanics. Also, this kind of repetition of attacking and dissolving attacks in a very relaxed way translated better into dynamic chi-sau / gor sau than had I just jumped straight into it, I think.

I'm curious as to other's experience.

 

[Phobius]

I think one thing is worth adding on chi-sau. Don't do it so soon that you forget your legs should move as well. It might otherwise become a bad habit that only makes you more stale.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Geezer's recent posts on another thread regarding WT ...

Can someone please tell me (thanks in advance) what are the difference between:

- WC,
- VT,
- WT,
- WCK,
- ...

I learned 詠春 (Wing Chun) from Ip Man's student Jimmy Kao back in 1973. I also worked out with Ip Man's student Jeffery Law and Albert Law. Is that WC, VT, WT, WCK. or ...?

 

[PiedmontChun]

Can someone please tell me (thanks in advance) what are the difference between:

- WC,
- VT,
- WT,
- WCK,
- ...

I learned 詠春 (Wing Chun) from Ip Man's student Jimmy Kao back in 1973. I also worked out with Ip Man's student Jeffery Law and Albert Law. Is that WC, VT, WT, WCK. or ...?

Gross generalization but....... WC just means Wing Chun and encompasses all Ip Man lineages, except those who are insistent on distinguishing themselves. Leung Ting labeled his method Wing Tsun and thus the WT label. Wong Shun Leung referred to his as Ving Tsun, hence the VT. The WCK is an actual organization in the UK and maybe someone else can chime in on which of Ip Man's students they derive from. As my sifu says "its still the same Chinese characters!".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Gross generalization but....... WC just means Wing Chun and encompasses all Ip Man lineages, except those who are insistent on distinguishing themselves. Leung Ting labeled his method Wing Tsun and thus the WT label. Wong Shun Leung referred to his as Ving Tsun, hence the VT. The WCK is an actual organization in the UK and maybe someone else can chime in on which of Ip Man's students they derive from. As my sifu says "its still the same Chinese characters!".

Thanks for your information.

When someone said I don't know VT. I told him that I know WC, but I don't know VT. According to your information, he was right and I was right too.

 

[Marnetmar]

Can someone please tell me (thanks in advance) what are the difference between:

- WC,
- VT,
- WT,
- WCK,
- ...

I learned 詠春 (Wing Chun) from Ip Man's student Jimmy Kao back in 1973. I also worked out with Ip Man's student Jeffery Law and Albert Law. Is that WC, VT, WT, WCK. or ...?

I view all the different spellings as a way for each Chun family to make themselves look like special snowflakes. It's one of the reasons WC gets such a bad name and IMO it's a bunch of nonsense that needs to stop.

I suppose VT is an exception because of the whole water closet story but come on, we live in different times now.

 

[yak sao]

VT, from what I understand was actually the spelling that Yip Man preferred.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For Mandarin Chinese, Youg Chun (YC) should be the correct name.

I think one should use the following order.

1. stationary single sticky hand.
2. moving step single sticky hand.
3. stationary double sticky hands.
4. moving step double sticky hands.

The

- stationary training can train no matter how powerful the attack may be, you will never move back (train courage).
- moving step training can train move like a butterfly, hit and run (train smartness). Try to maintain bridge can be an issue here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I view all the different spellings as a way for each Chun family to make themselves look like special snowflakes. It's one of the reasons WC gets such a bad name and IMO it's a bunch of nonsense that needs to stop.

Agree with you 100% there.

VT guy: You don't know VT.
WC guy: You don't know WC.
WT guy: Both of you don't know WT.
WCK guy: All 3 of you don't know WCK.
Mandarin YC guy: I only know YC. What are your guys talking about?

This just make no sense.

 

[LFJ]

When someone said I don't know VT. I told him that I know WC, but I don't know VT. According to your information, he was right and I was right too.

He was referring to what Yip Man taught, and doesn't believe Yip Man taught dozens of different versions of the same system. It's one system. You either know it or you don't. Yip Man used the Ving Tsun spelling.

 

[geezer]

He was referring to what Yip Man taught, and doesn't believe Yip Man taught dozens of different versions of the same system. It's one system. You either know it or you don't. Yip Man used the Ving Tsun spelling.

Whatever Ip Man may have taught in the course of his lifetime, his students brought forth many interpretations. A number of groups use the "VT" spelling to honor Grandmaster Ip.

Although much of my foundation was with LT's "WT" the association I belong to now uses the "VT" spelling. I just call it Ip Man Ving Tsun. It may not be the same as what you do, but it comes from the same root.

The problem with varying names and translations is hardly unique to WT/VT or even to Chinese Martial arts. I also practice Filipino Escrima. Others use the terms Arnis, Kali, and so forth. In Tagalog the correct spelling is Eskrima with a "k". The old Spanish term was Esgrima with a "g" meaning "fencing". We use the old regional spelling Escrima to honor my Instructor and his instructors who spelled it that way. But the same term can be used to describe many different arts. And different terms are often used by various clubs practicing pretty much the same art. That's just the way it is.

 

[LFJ]

Whatever Ip Man may have taught in the course of his lifetime, his students brought forth many interpretations.

If the forms are an alphabet or single words in a language, people can use these to eventually say all sorts of things. But if the alphabet is changed, we're no longer speaking the same language.

I think YM taught only one language. Many have changed the alphabet and created different languages, for whatever reason. Often they are mutually unintelligible, and sometimes even internally incomprehensible.

As to the chi-sau topic, adding footwork and other things to DCS is trying to have a conversation with single letters or making nonsense words by putting letters together that don't spell anything.

 

[Phobius]

If the forms are an alphabet or single words in a language, people can use these to eventually say all sorts of things. But if the alphabet is changed, we're no longer speaking the same language.

I think YM taught only one language. Many have changed the alphabet and created different languages, for whatever reason. Often they are mutually unintelligible, and sometimes even internally incomprehensible.

I have a different opinion. In my view it is very clear and higher likelihood that YM changed the alphabet with time. So it was ever changing. The reason being that it is the concept we learn and teach. But we will never see eye to eye there I think.

As to the chi-sau topic, adding footwork and other things to DCS is trying to have a conversation with single letters or making nonsense words by putting letters together that don't spell anything.

Can you quote where this is stated. Not sure who said anything about footwork in DCS. Sadly I personally don't even remember when we (me) did DCS, terrible memory it seems.

 

[LFJ]

In my view it is very clear and higher likelihood that YM changed the alphabet with time. So it was ever changing. The reason being that it is the concept we learn and teach.

Can't change the alphabet without the language (concept) changing too. Do you think he drastically changed the concept of VT all the time? If not, and the concept remained the same, why change the alphabet?

Can you quote where this is stated. Not sure who said anything about footwork in DCS. Sadly I personally don't even remember when we (me) did DCS, terrible memory it seems.

Post #8.

 

[guy b.]

He was referring to what Yip Man taught, and doesn't believe Yip Man taught dozens of different versions of the same system. It's one system. You either know it or you don't. Yip Man used the Ving Tsun spelling.

Very well stated summary of my position.

It is ok to train other "wing chun", whether it derived from YM and was changed for whatever reason, or whether it came from somewhere else, for example recreation from scratch via old texts and imagination. But there is only one VT system that YM taught and that works in the way it was designed to work. Saying that all of the different approaches are equally valid interpretations of the same system is not true. Changing the system changes the system. The result is no longer the system, but something else. If you prefer that other thing then it is no problem to me.

 

[guy b.]

Thanks for your information.

When someone said I don't know VT. I told him that I know WC, but I don't know VT. According to your information, he was right and I was right too.

Please see the reply from LFJ. It seems you know a different system.

 

[guy b.]

As to the chi-sau topic, adding footwork and other things to DCS is trying to have a conversation with single letters or making nonsense words by putting letters together that don't spell anything.

Exactly, it is a classic misunderstanding or intentional change in the VT system of training. As such it doesn't produce VT, but something else.

 

[Phobius]

Very well stated summary of my position.

It is ok to train other "wing chun", whether it derived from YM and was changed for whatever reason, or whether it came from somewhere else, for example recreation from scratch via old texts and imagination. But there is only one VT system that YM taught and that works in the way it was designed to work. Saying that all of the different approaches are equally valid interpretations of the same system is not true. Changing the system changes the system. The result is no longer the system, but something else. If you prefer that other thing then it is no problem to me.

So you are saying YM does not teach VT or WC since he does not teach what he was taught. He changed the system so either there was no WC or VT before him or you are doing lineage bashing now.

Oh and one more crucial thing. By your statement VT is doomed because no one teaches what they were taught. Not even your sifu. He picks up on some stuff and puts less value on others that don't work for him.

 

[guy b.]

So you are saying YM does not teach VT or WC since he does not teach what he was taught. He changed the system so either there was no WC or VT before him or you are doing lineage bashing now.

Oh and one more crucial thing. By your statement VT is doomed because no one teaches what they were taught. Not even your sifu. He picks up on some stuff and puts less value on others that don't work for him.

VT is the system taught by YM. There are other systems calling themselves similar names which may or may not be more or less related.

You are incorrect about the teaching of the system. It is taught as it was passed down. This is because it is a set of concepts encapsulated in a particular training method with a particular order of teaching using particular forms and drills introduced at particular stages of development, not a catalogue of applications or techniques. The important bit is the method and the reasons for doing things the way they are done, and this is what is passed carefully between teacher and student. Individual physical or stylistic differences do not change this core of what VT is.

 

[KPM]

I have a different opinion. In my view it is very clear and higher likelihood that YM changed the alphabet with time. So it was ever changing. The reason being that it is the concept we learn and teach. But we will never see eye to eye there I think.

.

I agree. It seems pretty clear to me that what Ip Man taught in Foshan prior to going to Hong Kong is different from what he taught not long after he arrived, which is again different from what he was teaching near the end of his life. Anyone that thinks Ip Man taught the EXACT same thing through-out his career is not looking very closely, or is just seeing what they want to see.