How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[K-man]

About 25 years ago we had a big issue with sports insurance. Karate had to change to limited contact to enable any form of indemnity insurance. Boxing, kickboxing and other such full contact styles had to pay excessive premiums. As such we had to limit our full on sparring to a much more controlled form of softer sparring. As you become more proficient the sparring does tend to become harder and faster and many strikes do hit the body at close to full force. Although we don't strike hard to the unprotected head, the occassional unexpected contact does occur. We tend to think of such blows as 'conditioning'.

Other training we do is based on what I have seen with systema training. That is to work with a partner, punching to the body and gradually increasing the power of the strikes depending on the partner's ability to absorb the strike. This training also involves controlling the breathing and relaxing. What in means in the long term is the fear of being hit hard diminishes and the likelihood of remaining in control after being attacked is increased.
I suppose what I am saying is, you may not need to spar as long as you undertake some other form of conditioning but you will still be at a disadvantage unless there is some training to help you to recognise and take advantage of any openings in your attacker's defence. :asian:

 

[chinto]

I guess my question is .. are you talking about a real street attack? or some kind of stupidity that is prearranged in the street?
real self defense situations are over in seconds. the winner is alive and the looser may or may not be. the main thing is that it is over in seconds and usually some one is badly injured or even dead in that less then 15 seconds it took. ( often less then 10 seconds.)

That said, sparring and yakosoku kumite are good for timing and distance and such, but kata really does teach you most all you need to know.

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

 

[Chris Parker]

You can talk all you want about sparring not being the same as a 'street fight', but those who spar defend themselves better on the street than those who don't, period. Now, if you want to throw in some uncontrolled 'street' defense scenarios to round out your practice as well, that's ideal, but if you aren't sparring or haven't sparred, you are missing out on skill refinement that you don't get any other way. There's a reason boxers do well for themselves on the street.

I've said this already, but it seems to bear repeating.

Sparring has as many issues for real self defence skill development as it has benefits. We, for instance, don't "spar" in the sense that you are infering here, but we are very focused on getting our students prepared for any potential street confrontation. We do this by incorporating adrenaline response training, constant drilling of principles and techniques under pressure and against resistance, and always staying up-to-date with modern assaults.

We also utilise a traditional Japanese style free-form style of training. In this form, there is a nominated defender, and one or more nominated attackers, who can come in with definite, pre-arranged attacks from pre-arranged directions, all the way through to unnominated, random attacks from any direction at any time, with any style of attack (up to and including weapons). The defender responds with unnominated responses to the attack, from slow all the way through to full speed.

The idea of this type of training is that you have the opportunity to experience your art against a variety of attacks, with the addition of adrenaline (in most cases), and this is the traditional form of sparring. It gives many of the same benefits as the more typical sparring, with the added benefits of being far closer related to a real encounter. But, as with all things, it is how you train it that really matters.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not sparring hard will not prepare you for getting hit. I know, you think you won't get hit. Thats a nice thought, but it is not a reality. If you want to be prepared for the street, you need to have some hard sparring against a variety of opponents. I don't let my students spar with people of similar heighth or weight very often. I want them to experience a bunch of different body types and skill levels. And to make it as realistic as possible, we allow almost all techniques when they spar. You will fight like to train.

IMO, fitness and kata are important, just like SD techniques and basics, but you need to spar. And not tippy-tappy point style.

'Everybody has a plan....until they get punched in the face!' -Mike Tyson

 

[sgtmac_46]

You can talk all you want about sparring not being the same as a 'street fight', but those who spar defend themselves better on the street than those who don't, period. Now, if you want to throw in some uncontrolled 'street' defense scenarios to round out your practice as well, that's ideal, but if you aren't sparring or haven't sparred, you are missing out on skill refinement that you don't get any other way. There's a reason boxers do well for themselves on the street.

Yes there is........because they can take a punch and they can throw a punch, because they practice taking and throwing them all the time against someone who is really trying to hurt them back.

Most folks in the street don't actually get knocked out by an opponent, but they get dazed enough and put in an alien situation to the point where they become unable to react. Getting punched in the nose/head/jaw for the first time is disorienting, it's a sensation that if all you've ever done is imagine it, there isn't an imaging it.......the bizarre smell sensation of your nose being punched to the point of bleeding, the odd way that you can actually 'smell' being punched in the head.......the throbbing numbness of being punched in the face, the feeling of blood running out of your nose.

Those are things that can overwhelm people experiencing them for the first time.........overwhelm to the point of distraction.

 

[chav buster]

theres 2 sides to my answer the first is dancing around probing for openings has very little to no actuel use in a street attack. there are 3 main types of attack 1, the interview type were theres a bit of banter and argy bargy, this is the most common and happens from talking range sparring largely want help. you can do full force drills from this range but thats nothing like sparring more like a few strikes and some grappling. pre emptive striking, awerness is what will help here. the second most common type of attack is the ambush, awerness again is your main weapon and again sparring want help you here. you can have someone randomly attack students at any time during class but thats nothing like sparring. the 3rd type of attack is the match fight whihc 99% of ma solely deal with and sparring will help here but you never have to actuelly get into this type of fight as you can and should just decline the offer to come and have a strieghner.

after saying all that the 1 thing that is good about sparring is it will get you used to taking a punch as if you dont do anything were your taking a punch it will freak you out if you ever do get into a fight.

if you want to learn use your skills properly then use them properly, how much time do you spend practicing getting out of front chokes, bear hugs headlocks ect? and then you sparr which has no coralation to the techniques you have learned? if you want to learn how to use your skills then get a neck brace gum shield groin guard and full face head gear and practice your ecapes multiple oponents ambush fighting from talking range full force and then tell me its anything like sparring!

 

[sgtmac_46]

That said, sparring and yakosoku kumite are good for timing and distance and such, but kata really does teach you most all you need to know.

Well, here's the issue I have.......if I took two groups of similar people, and taught one for six months boxing techniques using a kata-esque method of teaching, I basically taught them the motions and movements of boxing, but no sparring.

And I taught the other group using the methods of boxing instruction commonly taught, which includes extensive boxing.

At the end of six months my boxers who sparred would outfight the non-sparrers........ring, street, it wouldn't matter.......all other things being equal, those who sparred would beat those who didn't.

Now, the Non-Sparrers would likely defeat a third similar group who didn't do any kind of training.......which supports the thinking that you only need to be as prepared as you need to be prepared to be. Sparring isn't for everyone.


As i've long maintained........learning to fight without getting hit, is like learning to play football.....without getting hit!

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

Free sparring might be less than 120 years in the TAMA's standards........but it's been apart of the western tradition for thousands of years.

 

[MJS]

for instance a guy that just trains techniques and katas and really keeps his health and fitness up - but doesnt spar , kumite , etc etc etc maybe in his mind he spars but thats about it :flame:

I would say that how you spar is what really matters. Nothing wrong with point sparring, but people condition themselves to stop after they score a hit, or they're used to nothing except light to med contact, just doing body shots, etc. may effect what you fall back on.

I gear my sparring to be more continuous. I throw more boxing type punches vs. the quick backfist. My footwork is different. Depending on what the training is for that day, clinch work, low line kicks, knees, elbows, and ground work will all be added in. The contact is hard.

For me, this suits my needs of what I want to get out of sparring.

 

[blindsage]

theres 2 sides to my answer the first is dancing around probing for openings has very little to no actuel use in a street attack. there are 3 main types of attack 1, the interview type were theres a bit of banter and argy bargy, this is the most common and happens from talking range sparring largely want help. you can do full force drills from this range but thats nothing like sparring more like a few strikes and some grappling. pre emptive striking, awerness is what will help here. the second most common type of attack is the ambush, awerness again is your main weapon and again sparring want help you here. you can have someone randomly attack students at any time during class but thats nothing like sparring. the 3rd type of attack is the match fight whihc 99% of ma solely deal with and sparring will help here but you never have to actuelly get into this type of fight as you can and should just decline the offer to come and have a strieghner.

after saying all that the 1 thing that is good about sparring is it will get you used to taking a punch as if you dont do anything were your taking a punch it will freak you out if you ever do get into a fight.

if you want to learn use your skills properly then use them properly, how much time do you spend practicing getting out of front chokes, bear hugs headlocks ect? and then you sparr which has no coralation to the techniques you have learned? if you want to learn how to use your skills then get a neck brace gum shield groin guard and full face head gear and practice your ecapes multiple oponents ambush fighting from talking range full force and then tell me its anything like sparring!

If some form of grappling (standing and/or ground work) is included in your sparring, then plenty. There is also a possible miscommunication here. I'm all for situational defense scenarios for training as well, but in many schools they call it realistic but that's about where the realism ends. For instance in many so-called SD demos and classes the application of technique is taught, but the resistance level of the opponent ends at the application of the technique with way to much opponent compliance. But if you have a serious scenario, with a fully resistent opponent or opponents then that's great, I agree this is a great skill builder.

But again, I also say if you're not doing sparring you are missing out on important skills. Not just learning how to hit or get hit, but timing, learning how to read an opponent, speed, and control. If you talk about sparring in just a strictly one on one fight context, superficially you are correct, but in actuality the skills you learn do translate to street reality, and those who spar generally do better on the street than those who don't.

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

Really? Nobody every practiced actual fighting before 120 years ago? They just used kata and that was it, and they were deadly? You can Guarantee that? I'd love to see your research that shows this was the case.

 

[Zero]

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

Personally I think it is a mistake to condition and train for SD situations as if they will always only be over in seconds/split seconds and that there is no possibility of you ending up in an altercation or even being "jumped" by an aggressor on the street who is actually also a good fighter (be it from street/school of hard knocks or dojo trained to a high level). There may be a time when you are attacked, you do your SD move only to have the aggressor disengage, square off and come back for more.

Without your sparring and hopefully some competition/full contact fights on top of your SD application training, I think you are only half way there. And that's fine if half way keeps you alive. But what happens when you find yourself confronted by a fighter who can evade your wrist lock, eye gouge, back of the knee stomp and is reigning some jheavy blows on you at the same time? You loose, game over.

I just don't see kata alone getting you home.

Those who have commented on the advantage that conditioning from sparring and fights (both of body and mind) brings are correct. I have had friends attacked on the street and who have been hit, only to freeze up in shock - not even hit by a debilitaing strike. One of them had done martial arts for a couple of years also - so the concept of hitting and being hit was at least not new to him! On being punched in the face, he froze while his friend then got a real beating. It's only after you have had a broken rib, black eye, smashed nose or torn lip that you realise a lot of surface damage and even some internal damage is to some degree superficial and that you can actually go on. If you have the right mind set you can fight pretty much 'til you're dead. Again, I don't see kata getting you to this place.

 

[Twin Fist]

real simple, as I am a simple man.

if you aint used to getting hit, it's gonna be ugly when you do get hit.

and you WILL get hit on the street.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I think it depends on the authenticity of the sparring. If all sparring is point sparring with combatants automatically pausing when the instructor calls a point or calls stop, then I think the effectiveness of the sparring is limited beyond the student learning some combinations. One of the problems with light-contact point sparring is that fighters can develop a bad habit of anticipating a judge's call. For self-defense purposes,
there also has to be heavier-contact, free-style sparring in order for people to get used to getting hit and to keep on hitting.

I've recently started Systema. We were doing some sparring the other day at a very slow, relaxed pace. It was interesting to take the time to spot openings that didn't reveal themselves to me previously. At the same time, though, while we were moving at a relaxed pace, we were hitting with some force -- more than is necessary in point sparring. I think varied levels of combat and aggression are helpful in self-defence.

 

[shihansmurf]

Training to fight by perofrming kata without sparring is like learning to play guitar by jamming on Guitar Hero. You might be good at punching buttons but you can't actually play a song.

If you want to be a good fighter you have to fight. We improve that skills we practice. Its the point of practice, after all. If we train Kata then we get good at doing kata. If we traing fighting, then we improve our ability to fight. Getting good at kata is fine, but it isn't the same as being good at fighting. On a similar note, punching the air is great fun but it won't make you better at hitting an object.

Its important to understand one's goals in training. If you are training to develope fighting ability then you have to train as a fighter. If you are training for some other reason, then you have to train accordingly. Taking a short cut like not sparring will leave you without the ability to engage a resisting oppponent.


Mark

 

[Aiki Lee]

The truth of the matter is that you will do as you train yourself to do. I realize that in some martial arts solo kata practice is the essence of the art. The secrets are in the kata and it is up to the warrior to discover what they are himself. I do think that without training with other people who put up resistance there is really no way to see if your techniques will work out the way you think they are going to work.

I asked my teacher's teacher during a personal interview of him "Does a martial artists have to obtain actual experience in a real life fight to know that he is skilled enough to protect himself?"

he responded, "To know? Yes. Without actual combat experience all we can really do is form a good guess. That is why we must train as realistically as possible."

 

[seasoned]

I will try to explain this, as best as I can. When I was a white belt, to be very honest, it was understood that we were the sparring dummies. Sound harsh, well it was very harsh. Mind you we didn’t start sparring right away, that was held off until we had a good grasp on basic blocks, punches, and kicks. But we all knew, that by the time you made it to purple belt, that you better have your act together. White belt sparring was 3 times a week with instructional matches, with colored belts. 2 nights a week, it was by invitation only, not mandatory, but expected if you wanted to advance. These 2 nights, were hard core, and if you were there, it was because you wanted to be, as long as you were invited. Once there, you were there for the whole class, with no exceptions. Nothing instructional that night, just survival, no coddling, if you got hit it was because you didn’t block it. The hitter never got blamed for contact, unless it was malicious, in which case, everyone came down on you, even Sensei. I’ll tell you this, from the time you bowed in, until the time you bowed out, it was war. If you got hurt, you didn’t show it, and if you could walk, you could spar. We did round robin style, where there was two lines facing off, and we would rotate to the left or right so we would end up sparring everyone there many times. The survivors of this training over years became warriors. Our dojo in those days was “old” CNY Karate. We did many tournaments from Binghamton, NY to Buffalo, NY, and were well known. The best thing that came out of all this is even though we kicked the hell out of each other, we were always friends afterwards. To this day most of the DoJo in Syracuse NY are made up of these old time warriors. These days, there is more sparring gear worn, but man do we have fun talking about the “good old days” . J

 

[Sukerkin]

Sparring is useful for getting you used to making do with imperfect technique due to circumstance and, as I said before, is a shortcut for students to 'get' the concept of distance and timing.

I don't think that anyone, in any of the many {many :sigh:} threads we've had along these lines has said that sparring is useless. It does, however, have downsides and "trains in" bad habits becase it can never be close to real. The limitations required to make it 'safe' are what make it a poor way to train technique.

Given the choice between only kata or only sparring then I'd take kata but both is better as long as the emphasis is on the former.

Now clearly others are going to disagree. All I can say is that I had more than a decade of experience with 'empty hand' and found hard sparring useful but not as useful as kata training. I now have my third dan in my sword art and have not missed sparring as a training method at all - kata is fine for me thanks .

 

[Chris Parker]

There have been a few comments about the old systems only utilising kata and no sparring, and that working well enough for them. Rather predictibly, a number of members have called this type of comment out, and asked for evidence (I think the timeline of "only the last 120 years or so" for sparring was used). Personnally, I feel that there may be a little confusion over exactly what is meant by "sparring" and "kata" in this sense.

The way I have read the OPs concept (pirate smiley and all...), is in reference to the modern training tool as used in karate dojo, tae kwon do dojang etc., primarily point based, bouncing back and forth, two individuals trying to "tag" each other. Some organisations do teach this as a full-contact version, but the rest is the same, with the same habits, benefits, and dangerous tendancies as previously mentioned. This form of training is, in the main, a modern occurance, however, it came out of duelling training, where rules would be enforced, and strict parameters would be in effect.

Most people here, it seems, are from this type of background, training in these modern systems, with modern training methods allowed by modern protective equipment. There doesn't seem to be too many of the more "old school" systems, although those that are, you may notice, are not advocating the necessity of sparring as it is understood. This is because it is rarely used in these older schools. But those that train the newer systems are familiar with the term "kata", as it forms a part of their classes as well. And if we take kata as the form found in karate arts (and related methods, such as Tae Kwon Do's hyung), then I completely agree. It is not enough to truly prepare for violent encounter, as it is designed to instill the fundamental tactics and strategies of the particular art.

But kata is not always what has previously been described. In classical (Japanese) arts, martial and otherwise, kata is the primary form of training/teaching. In martial arts, it is often a paired exercise, and involves an attacker and a defender. The two practitioners then go through a pre-arranged sequence of movements, which could be as simple as: Attacker punches; Defender evades and blocks, then counter strikes, and applies a throw and pin. It could also be much more complex, as in the (much!) longer sword kata of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which may be made up of around 20 or so exchanges as described above, with the idea of attacker and defender often switching.

This version of kata training is often performed (at high levels) at full speed and power, which gives you a very good sense of distance, timing, accuracy, control etc. In the weapon systems, real weapons could be used, which certainly brings the reality of the situation to the forefront (I heartily recommend you try going completely free-form sparring with real weapons, and see if you may want to try a different approach). This is often combined with the traditional form of free-response training as I have described in my previous posts, giving you the ability to work on your reflexes and other aspects.

The closest to the more modern sparring in classical systems is what is known as shiai, essentially a form of duelling competition. A number of old arts have this as part of their curriculuum, with the Owari Kan Ryu actually starting with shiai before kata. Other than that, many older schools (in Japan and China, at least) would often go out to challenge other arts/practitioners, and would have fights to determine the best (the Japanese term was Taryu Jiai). This practice was outlawed in the mid 20th Century, though.

So, sparring as we seem to be discussing it is a modern thing, however, it has it's roots in older training practices. And kata as it is commonly recognised today (a long solo routine) is not going to give a complete set of skills, however the older version of kata is quite different and much more applicable to the realities of combat. So everyone is right! Well done!

 

[Ninja_in_training]

Sparring helps, but does not prepare you to fight either. Countless hours of sparring will still not give you the exp of going 100%. Repitition of the techniques will be what helps you win a real fight, so when the real life fight comes, its instinct on how to react and you dont have time to let nerves get in the way. First fight is always the hardest.. gets easier after that !!!

 

[ap Oweyn]

I know this is an old thread (April of this year) and has been resurrected. But just in case the same question comes up again, I'll throw my two cents in: There have been some really well considered answers about training methods, types of sparring, mental rehearsal, etc. But the first question that leaps to my mind is "why would you set out not to do such a major component of martial arts training?"

Are you afraid of sparring? (And I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP.) Why? What scares you? I ask this because it seems to me that overcoming that fear or trepidation is both an important personal goal and a useful exercise in coming to grips with the effect of adrenaline and intimidation.

The fact that it scares some people is fine. It's useful. Learn to work through it and you'll have put sparring to one of its most basic uses.

Try to skirt around it and you'll just have short changed yourself.


Stuart

 

[Franc0]

At the risk of sounding repetative (and/or stupid), I went ahead and decided to post based only on the Title and didn't bother reading a single reply: Easy, it effects you 110%. You have to know 3 simple "effects of the individuals technique" that you can only gain through sparring;
1. Does my "Technique/ Fighting skill" work against a resisting opponent?
2. Can I "Take a shot or do I have a glass jaw?"
3. Who runs out of gas 1st, me or my opponent?

IMO, sparring helps to answers these questions so that your answers can be something like (in order of question)....
1. Some did and some didn't, so I will work towards fixing or dispose of what didn't work as well as solidifying what did work.
2. One major rule is to "Always protect yourself" / "Always keep your hands up" so your "glass jaw" if you do have one, isn't compromised. If you have a glass jaw, sparring will tell you soon enough.
3. Sparring equals cardivascular conditioning. In a street fight, whoever runs out of gas 1st, usually gets his *** handed to him. That is a simple fact.

Franco