did sparring help your fight outcome???

[cfr]

from what i understand sparring is to get you used to seeing knuckles coming at you and not flenching or freezing up.

Is that what it's done for you in any street altercations you've had?

 

[7starmantis]

sparring that is for points where people stop you if you get a clean, light contact shot to successfully connect could be an introductory level, but it really isn't going to get you results for self defense if that is what you stay with. Moving to more intense contact and fighting for goals other than time or points is more productive for street defense.

I agree with that 100%. Actually in my school we dont even start with that type of "point sparring". We start with a very slow version of chi sou, but the progression is what you need to look at. I think I was misunderstood as being pro forms training alone, I am not. I am pro forms training in addition to contact training which progresses towards full contact and speed. This progression may take 8 years, but it is the progression that increases your skill.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

I agree with that 100%. Actually in my school we dont even start with that type of "point sparring". We start with a very slow version of chi sou, but the progression is what you need to look at. I think I was misunderstood as being pro forms training alone, I am not. I am pro forms training in addition to contact training which progresses towards full contact and speed. This progression may take 8 years, but it is the progression that increases your skill.

7sm

I think some form of forms training, whether one step a la TKD, or Self Defense combo's a la Kenpo or something else is really a good component as well. Using live dummy targets instead of standard heavy bags can really let you zing throat shots, eye strikes or some of the soft tissue/vital types of targets. Trained in conjunction with sparring that is geared toward the conditional goals of the fighting style is really productive. MJS on another thread used the term 'aliveness' in training. I think it is an effective concept to fit sparring into and be productive.

 

[Rainman]

I agree with that 100%. Actually in my school we dont even start with that type of "point sparring". We start with a very slow version of chi sou, but the progression is what you need to look at. I think I was misunderstood as being pro forms training alone, I am not. I am pro forms training in addition to contact training which progresses towards full contact and speed. This progression may take 8 years, but it is the progression that increases your skill.

7sm

Yes and what some don't understand is that during the progression you become conceptual. Proactive instead of reactive as it were. I know you know what I mean I can tell... our methods are similar to yours in the progression of the thing itself. We fight sooner but it is measured with the lower ranks until they start pulling rabbits out of a hat... I have seen a 3 year student wearing an orange fight in a superconsious realm. He was patient and took his time with the art and enjoyed the process.

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, you can see it when someone is fighting in their head. You can see the difference when someone is fighting to use certain techniques or if they are taking their time, allowing their skill to be used.

7sm

 

[moving target]

As far as addressing the eye gouges and breaks and such, there is no sparring or any way of practicing those techniques, not truly doing them. That is what forms are good for. I forget who is was, I think Lee Kam Wing said that in your forms is your chance to actually break someones arm, to really gouge their eyes. If you play your forms correctly, in your head you can practice those dangerous techniques. Is it as good as going out and gouges out someones eyes, no. But then again, society kind of frowns on that as a whole.

7sm

I disagree with that. You can train those techniques in other ways. You can hit a pag or a pad with your fingers for physical feed back with eye gauges, you can spar with the use of modifications of the techniques so that you don't hurt your partner but get practice at landing them. I don't think forms are the only way you can practice any given technique.

 

[7starmantis]

I disagree with that. You can train those techniques in other ways. You can hit a pag or a pad with your fingers for physical feed back with eye gauges, you can spar with the use of modifications of the techniques so that you don't hurt your partner but get practice at landing them. I don't think forms are the only way you can practice any given technique.

OK, but I didn't say forms were the only way to practice any given technique. I said forms were the only time you can (at least in your mind) actually break someones arm in practice. Training to pull your punches will help you pull them in a fight, something you don't want to do. I think the applying of the technique such as an eye gouge but modifying it so it doesn't actually contact the person can be detrimental. It can be done to get the basics of the body movement, but for the actual eye gouge, your opening yourself up to a world of bad technique.

You can train on a bag or such for the eye strike, this is true, and many people do. How would you train in actually breaking someones arm? You can modify the break and do it with a partner up to the control point, but that isn't really practicing the full technique is it?

All that to say, I understand your point, and I agree with it to a degree. I did want to clarify that I didn't say forms were the only way to practice any given technique.

7sm

 

[loki09789]

"I said forms were the only time you can (at least in your mind) actually break someones arm in practice. "

I love how this very common practice in Martial Arts is not so common and a 'breakthrough' in performance development in sports. They call it visualization training.

Also, precision skydivers and pilots and other team coordination practice 'forms' or 'kata' everytime they rehearse a show, play or pattern - yet, conversely in Martial Arts, there is a debate over whether forms are useful... back and forth all the time.

 

[Tony]

I enjoy learning forms especially when I am performing them right and it begins to feel comfortable. The forms contain all the techniques you might not be able to do while sparring such as Chin na, eye gouges, pressure/ nerve point strikes and kicks to the shins and groin.
My instructor likes us to perform out forms sometimes as if were being attacked but he puts it in such language that i cannot repeat on here!
Fighting for points is so different to fighting for ones life but atleast it helps in coordination, learning what techniques work better than others, reaction time, perception time, desensitisation to being hit, and learning how to use fear to your advantage. However just because you're good at sparring does not make you invincible if you are cornered in the street by the local wannabe gangsters! Bruce Lee once said Competiton fighting and forms were like "swiiming on dry land" but I think there has been many changes in Martial Arts since his death and from what I am learning of Kung Fu, there are some effective applications in the forms but you really need to work on them, practicing them and thinking about them, breaking them down and analysing each move.
I have a friend who has been learning Taekwondo and has no idea why he practices the patterns and sees them as useless. He loves the sparring aspect, infact he loves fighting full stop. Due to his lack of flexibility and technique he usually gets over aggressive while sparring. His instructor has warned him about this on numerous occasions but I don't think he can controll his anger. He has been in numerous fights but a long time before he started Taekwondo.
I think for me sparring is beneficial in that i am getting used to being hit and learning to fight back without being so afraid. In fact my sparring is improving because I managed to get some good side kicks in the other week, and learning to duck. I can't wait for tonight because I have Kung fu, but most of that will be forms and then the last half hour dedicated to sparring!

 

[moving target]

7* I misspoke myself somewhat, I should have said "I don't think there are any techniques that can only be practiced in forms"

Wear some kind of protective eyeware like shooting glasses and you can practice eyeguages in sparring. I don't see how practicing a break in ayour form will make you much better at the break. True, you do go through the full range of motion, but there is no resistance. You don't have a person squirming to get free, you don't even know what it would feel like to break the arm of an unresisting opponant, and no amount of visualisation will give you that input.

As to visualisation,

Also, precision skydivers and pilots and other team coordination practice 'forms' or 'kata' everytime they rehearse a show, play or pattern - yet, conversely in Martial Arts, there is a debate over whether forms are useful... back and forth all the time.

This type of visualisation is used for a somewhat diffrent purpose from the type of visualisation a martial artist would use. Visualisation for team coordination is the visualisation of the routine, the diffrence is in the mind of the martial artist you are visualising a set of dynamic circumstances and how you would deal with them, for team coordination you are visualising a set pattern and are attempting to basicly get everyone on the same page.

 

[Black Bear]

Pardon my absence, I was in a Native reserve doing psych assessments.

Okay, okay. I was just being rude. Hey my bad. But this is what you said:

Longer does not equal incorrect. That is like saying it takes too long to become a doctor, why go that long when you can become a nurse in half the time.

Please explain explicitly how this relates to what was being talked about.

 

[7starmantis]

Please explain explicitly how this relates to what was being talked about.

C'mon man, I think everyone reading this understands exactly what he was saying. Your making this so much more than it has to be. Don't over analize these things, we all know his point.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Please let him speak for himself. What I'm curious about is how exactly is this analogous to when in the process sparring is introduced?

 

[darkintruder]

You can`t learn to swim without getting wet. :jedi1:

 

[Tony]

Last night I was sparring and I enjoyed a good sparring match with one of the lower grades who is a lot bigger than me but he seems to be getting better. Its so much fun to spar against someone with good skill rather than someone with no focus on technique, just blind rage, but this is what we are face with on the street. My Instructor has noticed that I have started to sparring. He commented that this was something I didn't seem interested in but I told him I needed to desensitise myself to the fear of getting hit and he said thats a good idea. I am definately getting better. It doesn't matter to me if I don't emter tournaments. I'm not interested in winning metal trophies!
However I'm not naive to not to use the other techniques we don't use in sparring such as elbows, knees, eye gouges, throat, groin, knee and shin strikes. But in tournaments when everyone is wearing the same protective gear, it is hard to tell which style is which because all the ounches and kicks look the same. The various hand strikes of Kung Fu are not evident due to the wearing of gloves. However in the street it doesn't matter what style you use as long as you managed to escape alive!

 

[Mormegil]

On the subject of sparring to prepare for the street, we rececently started doing 2 vs. 1 sparring at the JKD school I go to.

It is something else, when you have two people trying to get you. I found my adrenaline rush being way higher than regular 1 vs 1 sparring - I can't think clearly, have even less wind, trouble with depth perception...etc. Though, I felt these when I first started sparring initially.

Now, I consider this type of sparring very useful for a real fight.

 

[moving target]

In 2v1 when I'm the 1 all I do is run and kick

 

[loki09789]

On the subject of sparring to prepare for the street, we rececently started doing 2 vs. 1 sparring at the JKD school I go to.

It is something else, when you have two people trying to get you. I found my adrenaline rush being way higher than regular 1 vs 1 sparring - I can't think clearly, have even less wind, trouble with depth perception...etc. Though, I felt these when I first started sparring initially.

Now, I consider this type of sparring very useful for a real fight.

What kind of tactics or preparation did you get before they threw you in the mix? Any of the typical "stack them up like dominos" or 'duck and cover' run and gun tactics?

I have taught/participated in this type of thing where there was maybe one or two types of tactics that we were focusing on applying. Otherwise it is a sink or swim type of environment that is more of a bearing/composure test than 'fight' training because you haven't been given any 'tips' or goals to get from the experience.

 

[Thesemindz]

What kind of tactics or preparation did you get before they threw you in the mix? Any of the typical "stack them up like dominos" or 'duck and cover' run and gun tactics?

I have taught/participated in this type of thing where there was maybe one or two types of tactics that we were focusing on applying. Otherwise it is a sink or swim type of environment that is more of a bearing/composure test than 'fight' training because you haven't been given any 'tips' or goals to get from the experience.

At the Kenpo school I train at we took a page from Aikido and do a mass attacks randori. Advanced rank students. One guy get attacked at random from a circle of attackers. He begins by getting out of the way. Then moving and striking. Striking and locking. Locking and choking. Choking and throwing. Increase intensity of attacks and attackers. Attackers don't take turns, they just watch for openings.

This is just one of many methods we use to improve our skill in this area of our training. Other multiple attack drills and scenarios we use include the two man techniques, scenario training (environment, weapons, context), multiple combatant point sparring including team sparring, mass attacks set, simultaneous target training, objective based combat, evasion drills with multiple opponents, and maneuvering around human obstructions ie. innocent bystanders.

Now, this is mostly at the advanced and senior ranks, but there is alot that we do in the beginner classes that begins to simulate multiple opponent combat as well as increase overall awareness. Drills with multiple participants trying to accomplish simple conflicting goals. One in particular gives the student the goal of subduing an opponent using the skills they have aquired, while defending themselves against multiple opponents. This drill forces the student to react spontaneously to a constantly changing combat environment where awareness and perceptual speed are as important as physical technique. It gives the student a chance to monitor the progress they have made even after only a short time. We call it freeze tag.

I've found that sparring has indeed helped me fight. As have many other methods of training. I think some people will respond to some methods of training and others to others. Some people train while they do their dishes or clean their car. You can train arm breaks on tree limbs if you want. Or cadavers. All training imposes limits on what is in reality a dynamic situation. Sparring isn't fighting. Neither are forms.


-Rob

 

[Jason Davis]

Sparring will help you in a real life confrontation.

This is true only if you spar like it is a real life confrontation. By that I don't mean try to kill each other; I just mean don't wear pads and actually try to hit each other. pain is the best teacher. Getting hit with pads on is a lot different that getting hit without them on. Pads won't teach you.

Also the only way it is going to help you in a real fight is if you fight like you spar. By that i mean don't go crazy and start swinging your arms around like a 7 year old girl in a cat-fight. Think about what your doing use your technique. You have got to make the attacker do what you want them to do not vice-versa. don't fight their fight.

Always remember 90% of the time you are going to fight someone who doesn't have any kind of martial arts training and they are going to be fighting stricktly with anger. If you train martial arts you have the advantage. Your punches are more devistating and you Know how and when to use them affectively.

Don't streetfight a streetfighter. Use your skill. Therefore, if you are very good at sparring spar as hard as you can when your in a real fight. It'll all work out.