High Kicks to the Head

[Hand Sword]

Wow! Ron and Don were my friends, and Ron was a school mate of mine. (Helped to throw some hands with me too, back in the day!)

I remember Pedro as well. Outstanding Find Carol!

 

[bluemtn]

Great find, Carol, and thanks!

 

[Boomer]

:soapbox:

Sorry, I have to be the dissident here.
I used to fight in NASKA, and competed with Pedro Xavier, Hakeem Alston and that lot.

The whole point sparring thing under NASKA had turned into a glorified "extreme tag" match. Fighting was ignored, the competition seemd to be "who could wear the gaudiest outfit". And the whole putting your hand up in the air after scoring a supposed point is downright disrespectful and about the most un humble thing ever...ie: un martial artslike.

Was it entertaining? I suppose. Heck, I competed, too. Was it conducive to martial arts? Not in the least.

I am glad those days are behind me. My 7 year old son, who has seen me compete in MMA and muay thai, made his way into the attic one day and found half of the space taken up by old trophies. He was all wonderment and awe.... and I was embarassed. How could I tell him that I used to ..."play tag"?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

:soapbox:

Sorry, I have to be the dissident here.
I used to fight in NASKA, and competed with Pedro Xavier, Hakeem Alston and that lot.

The whole point sparring thing under NASKA had turned into a glorified "extreme tag" match. Fighting was ignored, the competition seemd to be "who could wear the gaudiest outfit". And the whole putting your hand up in the air after scoring a supposed point is downright disrespectful and about the most un humble thing ever...ie: un martial artslike.

Was it entertaining? I suppose. Heck, I competed, too. Was it conducive to martial arts? Not in the least.

I am glad those days are behind me. My 7 year old son, who has seen me compete in MMA and muay thai, made his way into the attic one day and found half of the space taken up by old trophies. He was all wonderment and awe.... and I was embarassed. How could I tell him that I used to ..."play tag"?

Tell him the truth, you were once a kid too. :angel:

 

[Boomer]

Tell him the truth, you were once a kid too. :angel:

LOL!:lfao:


I did!

That's funny tho...

 

[Hand Sword]

:soapbox:

Sorry, I have to be the dissident here.
I used to fight in NASKA, and competed with Pedro Xavier, Hakeem Alston and that lot.

The whole point sparring thing under NASKA had turned into a glorified "extreme tag" match. Fighting was ignored, the competition seemd to be "who could wear the gaudiest outfit". And the whole putting your hand up in the air after scoring a supposed point is downright disrespectful and about the most un humble thing ever...ie: un martial artslike.

Was it entertaining? I suppose. Heck, I competed, too. Was it conducive to martial arts? Not in the least.

I am glad those days are behind me. My 7 year old son, who has seen me compete in MMA and muay thai, made his way into the attic one day and found half of the space taken up by old trophies. He was all wonderment and awe.... and I was embarassed. How could I tell him that I used to ..."play tag"?

I can speak first hand about the real skills of Ron. He was not non conducive to the arts. Those on the receiving end are usually the first to spout off about that stuff. That spouting off is what is not conducive to the arts.

 

[Adept]

A head high kick takes longer to reach it's target than the equivalent hand technique. This gives your opponent more reaction time.

Myth, Is the distance longer. Sure. But there are more factors at play than distance, sure. If trained your legs can be faster than your arms.

The mechanics of the leg and the arm are such that, with a comparable amount of training vested in each, a foot will always take more time to reach a high target than a fist.

A head high kick places you in a vulnerable position, standing on one leg within 'shoot' range of your opponent.

Shoot range? Ok, yes, and punching puts you within that range also???

Punching does not require you to stand on one leg. It allows you to mount an effective 'sprawl' defence

A head high kick often requires some kind of twist of the grounded foot, which increases the risk of falling or slipping.

Every technique be it hand or foot derives its power from the ground.
A boxer can not do a knock out punch without twisting their feet on the ground.

However, standing on one foot, and then twisting that foot, leaves one more vulnerable to slipping or falling, especially when one is rapidly shifting their centre of balance during a high kick.

A head high kick has a slower recovery time, and until the kicking foot is planted on the ground your balance and mobility is limited.

Slower recovery time, maybe in milliseconds

Times during a violent conflict can easily be measured in fractions of a second. A longer recovery time is a disadvantage.

A effective head high kick, for most people, requires warming up and loose pants.

Why? can you not thow a full lenght punch without warmups and a loose shirt?

Why? because it requires an extreme flex of the lower body which, for most people, is not possible without warming up. I know I can't kick to head height in my normal street jeans, which are hardly a tight fit.

A head high kick limits the ability to move and strike simultaneously, unlike handstrikes.

So are you saying you must be stationary to throw a high section kick?

By and large, yes. While that kick is moving from the ground to the target, your mobility is very limited. Perhaps not to the point where you must be stationary, as a small amount of sliding is possible, but you certainly don't have the option of taking a step to side while your attack is actually travelling.

Now, obviously you can move right up until the point of attack, but once that attacking foot leaves the ground, your options become very limited. Not so with a hand technique.

if your primary tools are kicking, then getting in and letting someone put their hands on you also seems unreasonable. Having both tools is the optimum war chest.

The concerns I outlined above are always relevant, no matter how much time is invested in training your kicks.

You'll note that I conclude by saying that high kicks are not useless. Simply that their drawbacks must be acknowledged before you commit to using one.

 

[seasoned]

The legs are a great and probably underrated target, at least in KMAs. They're much more accessible, much harder to miss, and require far less range of motion than head shots, and if someone can't stand, or at least can't stand comfortably, they're not going to want to continue the fight all that much. And a groin shot... again, not the easiest to hit, but a lot of advantages.

Simon O'Neil pointed out in his TKD Times article a couple of years back that a hard strike to the knee or just below triggers a reflexive throwing back of the head by the assailant... opening up the throat to a `rising block' (forearm strike to the throat), a sequence actually recorded in one of the very early Taegeuks. Funny, that...

I can remember many years ago at a tournament I came in with a side kick to my opponents midsection and he blocked it. Funny thing is, but not for him, is when he blocked the kick he redirected it into his own hip. He went off his feet and could not get up for awhile. "You can take a sledge hammer to the top of a car and do a lot of damage, but flatten a few tires and that car is not going any where. Not to good anyway .

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.

Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.

Enjoy

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Carol,
That video display much of what my understanding of the limitations of high kicking. Notice how their arms extend downward and the elbow relevant to the kicking leg rolls outward and upward to get the reach and height needed for the kicks. The positioning of the hands is what makes them vunerable to kicks in the head. Kind of brings some validity to my toungue and cheek OP??

"1. Fight someone else who is also trying to kick high to the head. They will definitely be hanging back at the right range and you won't have to worry about those pesky throws, takedowns, or hand techniques. Just hope your kicking is better than theirs."

Carol, a few pages back you mentioned some very interesting Indonesian kicks - I'd love to see a video of those!

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

You never lean when doing a hand technique?

I consider that poor technique as it limits your mobility and compromises your balance. If your experience is with fighters who use leaning to land a hand technique then they are not very skilled at hand techniques. People that are skilled with their hands may lean to evade but not to strike. That's why one practices footwork to get proper position.

Really? I can hop, slide, jump off one leg.... And jumping and skiping are done while kicking. I have always been mobile. Who would just stand and kick and expect their opponent to walk into it. That seems silly!

Single kicks, multiple kicks, kicking with both legs at the same time...

I know that both hands and feet are mobil. But many imply that you can just grab my leg and throw me over. Only my grandmother kicks that slow. So that was the point. You don't punch slow enough for people to grab, neither is kicking. Besides, while your grabbing my leg with both hands then I can have fun punching you in the head or kicking you in the head with the other foot!

So you can kick to the head with no feet on the ground, and generate power in your hands with a captured leg. Besides why do I need both hands to grab your leg? Why go I even need to grab your leg? I could just attack the one that your standing on or blast you in the head. You're assumption is I can not read your body to see the kick before it happens. Your assumption is also that I'd be so afraid of the kick that I wouldn't close the distance as you tried kicking. All I need to do is move a few inches for the kick to miss then I have alot of options as far as counters while your on one leg. I could move when you shift your weight to one leg or when you begin your chamber and be in a position where I'm safe and you're not.

Legs are more versital than most know. I.e. the example one person gave of hook kicking you in the back of the head while in a clinch.

Legs are not expected. (I could side kick you in the head while our shoulers are touching.)

What?? Both these statements are completely unrealisitic. How can a side kick get to someone's head while your shoulders are touching?? As far as the hook kick which is possible in close proximity but very risky, I don't see it happening in a clinch (someone grabbing your neck or with 1 or 2 underhooks under your arm). Try punching, elbows, knees, or low kicks they'll work better.

It os possible to circle around your opponent throwing continous kicks.

I'm impressed to hear that you are equally mobile with one leg on the ground as you are with two.

And so tit for tat...
You are mearly stating your preferances based on your training, but applying your training to other styles is about as fun as underestimating your opponent.

At no time have I ever stated that I would not use my other weapons. Or that I had to use high kicks first. The weapon is not a choice I make but rather made by the holes in my opponents armor.

I have 4 weapons, you have 2
I love the odds!

At no time have I stated that I wouldn't use a high kick under the right circumstances but I am surprised to find so many proponents of the technique that are being unrealistic about the right circumstances.

By the way I have more than 4 weapons, I have 8> hands, elbows, knees, & feet and more if I pick something up.

You can add the one leg mobility art, the elastic side kicks, the kicks with no support leg, & the elastic hook kick to your one page ad in Black Belt Magazine.

DArnold,

I'm baffled that a man of your experience doesn't see the difference between a punch and a kick. How come you don't see how a kick can magnify concerns over risks associated?

Your claims about people that can kick someone in the head three times before they can raise their hand sound like they belong in a full page ad in Black Belt Magazine titled KICKING SECRETS where you charge $175 for the course. That would be 2 pages after the ad about the Nebraska Mountain Man with the magnetic chi powers that sells his secrets too.

Forgive my skepticism but I'd need to witness claims like this before I'd give them any credulity.

_Don Flatt

 

[zDom]

So, without warming up, you're capable of throwing a high or jumping kick?

I am

 

[shesulsa]

I am

So am I.

The question is not whether the kick can be done or not - it clearly can. The question is the efficacy of the kick on the str33t.

:shrug:

Folks, we have reached no man's land - where everyone's right and everyone's wrong.

The kick can be done effectively, quickly, by a select few people and *might* work in a self-defense situation with the right people, the right circumstances, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Therefore we cannot within the rules of logic correctly state that it can't be done and is worthless because of those few people who could do it.

The vast majority of people would not choose it as a viable self-defense tool because of the percentage of people who can make it work. Because that percentage is so low, and because the likely physique of those who make a living at doing this is likely not conducive to doing so, it is considered totally unviable by those people.

So ... everybody's right ... and everybody's wrong. Two schools of thought and really, they will likely never agree.

Let's move on, folks, and refrain from cheap shots, accusations of falsehoods, personal digs, etcetera.

:asian:

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

So you can kick to the head with no feet on the ground, and generate power in your hands with a captured leg. Besides why do I need both hands to grab your leg? Why go I even need to grab your leg? I could just attack the one that your standing on or blast you in the head. You're assumption is I can not read your body to see the kick before it happens. Your assumption is also that I'd be so afraid of the kick that I wouldn't close the distance as you tried kicking. All I need to do is move a few inches for the kick to miss then I have alot of options as far as counters while your on one leg. I could move when you shift your weight to one leg or when you begin your chamber and be in a position where I'm safe and you're not.

I forgot to mention I could also move just out of range as the kick is thrown and follow the retraction in.
_Don Flatt

 

[Em MacIntosh]

For me it is simple when I'm in the tussle. I have a few points (I'm a shin kicker myself).

1. A leg is bigger, weighs more and generally delivers a much harder strike than a punch.
2. The head. If you hit anything enough, it doesn't work anymore.
3. Except for accute pressure point tactics, a harder hit is generally a better hit. A leg is generally capable of much more power.
4. You can headbutt a fist more effectively than a shin.
5. Sometimes the only thing to do when a powerhouse kick is en route is to get outta the way. If they get outta your way you may be in a bad position.
6. I find using knees to be a much better alternative.
7. Shin kicks keep me in a less comprimised position.
8. When I kick I try to break something (knee, jewels, my foot off in their @$$.) So it's pretty dedicated and I HATE getting 'jammed' in the middle of a high kick.
9. No matter how good I get, I beleive the simplest techniques are the best.
10. I tend to beleive Chuck Norris would sooner kick your leg off than your head.
11. There is a time and a place for everything. I train it, but don't use it. Not that that I've never ended a fight with it but it was a lucky reflex. Not something I want to make a habit of.
12. What would you do if someone tried to kick you in the head?

 

[Sukerkin]

Chaps, I really think it's time to take on board the sentiments that shesulsa expressed above.

There are two irreconcilable camps here and no amount of logic, emoting or anecdotal evidence is going to change anyones mind.

Stick the serpents tail in its mouth and let it feed on itself and stop bothering everyone else i.e. let this thread go and sink out of sight so we can get on with reading posts that don't make us grind our teeth.

 

[Carol]

Carol,
That video display much of what my understanding of the limitations of high kicking. Notice how their arms extend downward and the elbow relevant to the kicking leg rolls outward and upward to get the reach and height needed for the kicks. The positioning of the hands is what makes them vunerable to kicks in the head. Kind of brings some validity to my toungue and cheek OP??

"1. Fight someone else who is also trying to kick high to the head. They will definitely be hanging back at the right range and you won't have to worry about those pesky throws, takedowns, or hand techniques. Just hope your kicking is better than theirs."

Hi Don, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Isn't what you are saying (someone also trying to kick you in the head) a matter of taking advantage of an opportunity presented...and having the experience to know when such a move would be advantageous?

My experience with sparring is very limited (I'm still an MA noobie) but the way I find myself fighting is...I survey my opponent looking for areas of opportunity. If I see a target that looks "more avaliable" than others, I attack that target. I'm noticing that as my own abilities slowly increase, I'm seeing different targets when I spar.

Will I ever be personally able to kick like that...I honestly don't know. It seems to me that with the proper training and with the proper teaching, one can get a sense for when to work it in to their training...but I can't speak from experience as to whether that's the case. :asian:

Carol, a few pages back you mentioned some very interesting Indonesian kicks - I'd love to see a video of those!

Me too. I don't have much of a video collection. I don't personally learn very well just from watching (I'm painful to teach), I need an instructor that can explain something to me eleven-teen different ways so I have to admit I don't have a very good catalog of the arts that interest me.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Hi Don, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Isn't what you are saying (someone also trying to kick you in the head) a matter of taking advantage of an opportunity presented...and having the experience to know when such a move would be advantageous?

Exactly. Too many people that probably have tons of insight into high kicking have treated this thread as an argument as to whether high kicking works or not, when the discussion should be when does high kicking work and under what circumstance is it not the best idea.

With that in mind, I will not tolerate the exaggeration of abilities, ignorance of physical limitations, or borderline supernatural claims. The point is for street effectiveness.

_Don Flatt

 

[MJS]

Exactly. Too many people that probably have tons of insight into high kicking have treated this thread as an argument as to whether high kicking works or not, when the discussion should be when does high kicking work and under what circumstance is it not the best idea.

AFAIK, there was mention of that. However, those claims were part of the split camp. Some were saying, yes they had done high kicks in a SD situation and the other side saying impossible and/or it was not a wise thing to do.

With that in mind, I will not tolerate the exaggeration of abilities, ignorance of physical limitations, or borderline supernatural claims. The point is for street effectiveness.

_Don Flatt

Likewise, this is why I'm done with this thread as well.

Mike

 

[Carol]

Exactly. Too many people that probably have tons of insight into high kicking have treated this thread as an argument as to whether high kicking works or not, when the discussion should be when does high kicking work and under what circumstance is it not the best idea.

With that in mind, I will not tolerate the exaggeration of abilities, ignorance of physical limitations, or borderline supernatural claims. The point is for street effectiveness.

_Don Flatt

*puts away the magic amulets*

IMO...it comes down to training. I don't think anyone would advocate picking up a gun and shooting it if they have not had gun safety and marksmanship training.

I also don't think marksmanship proficiency is required to be a martial artist. However, should a firearm be the choice of defense, it should ONLY be used if one has marksmanship proficiency.

High kicks...they are an unusual weapon. Like firearms, I don't personally believe that one must specifically be able to use high kicks in a combat situation to be a martial artist. However, if they are used, they should only be used if one has been trained to be effective in combat with them.

Just my thoughts though.

 

[LawDog]

Princess Carol,
Excellent point of view.
:asian: