Welcome along Sherman. Nice vid BTW. Will be perusing you're youtube channel 
Hi from Sherman Self Defense! ^_~
- Thread starter Sherman
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- #22
Wow! So many posts! 0_0;;; Thanks for the warm (and maybe some not so warm) welcome, guys! ^_^ Glad that my introduction managed to provoke some good discussion here! A point to note is that since this is a self defense video series, it is meant to be easy to do and as Chris says, "the idea of parrying the elbow is solid, and more reliable. It's moving slower than the wrist, it's easier to hit, and offers more control than trying to use the wrist for leverage." It is also not Wing Chun and my recommended entry in the middle range is the simple "Elbow Up" technique, which also protects your head. Wrist deflections are fine in the long range. Here's my latest video to demonstrate:
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Please remember to subscribe if you like! ^_^
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi again, Sherman,
As noted, this forum is really all about welcoming new members, and giving you an opportunity to introduce yourself… if you're looking for some more feedback and discussion of your videos, I'd suggest posting them in either the Self Defence or Members in Motion forums… but do be prepared for some comments that might not be what you're looking to hear. I'll refrain from commenting on this clip until it's posted in one of the other forums.
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Welcome, Sherman!
For those who objected to the deflection of the attacker's elbow, I don't see the problem. I do that all the time; the main difference is that I evade while deflecting. In fact, it's one of our basic exercises (ouchi, ouchi).
Not my video, but you get the idea from it.
Evade, deflect, strike. You have to go above the elbow to turn the opponent's body away and place them where you want for your shots.
For those who objected to the deflection of the attacker's elbow, I don't see the problem. I do that all the time; the main difference is that I evade while deflecting. In fact, it's one of our basic exercises (ouchi, ouchi).
Not my video, but you get the idea from it.
Evade, deflect, strike. You have to go above the elbow to turn the opponent's body away and place them where you want for your shots.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
That's the thing Bill , you have a secondary defence with the evasion in case you miss the elbow .
Sherman is still in the path of the strike , so has no margin for error.
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I'll give you that. I don't care to wait until a punch is nearly upon me to take action. Job one is to neutralize the immediate threat, either by not being where it is aimed, or getting it aimed somewhere else, or both. But I do like to turn the opponent's body by stepping out at an angle, deflecting the incoming blow high enough on their arm so that their entire body has to turn away from me, and then unleashing my counter attack on their exposed ribs, neck, face, etc. As you said, if I entirely blow the intercept, at least I'm out of the way of the punch.
I have no problem with deflecting the elbow but if you do it like is shown in the video I reckon you'll be hit 9 out of 10 times from a committed strike. We have a saying ... two hands for beginners, and that applies at least up to 9th dan.
If there had been a parry with the other hand first, then you would be protected from the strike and able to carry the elbow. Whether you move off the line or take your attacker off the line depends on your training. Personally, I would parry with the left and take the elbow with my right. That then opens him for a head shot, or ribs, with your left.
Exactly. Although a parry as the primary defence will do the same thing and take your attacker's centre at the same time.
The problem is to take the elbow with one hand as shown in this video you have to be watching the striking arm and not the body. Your instinctive protection is taken out of the equation and you are reacting, not being proactive.
:asian:
mook jong man
Senior Master
Another option , which is used in Wing Chun is to wait for them to come to you , and instead of using a lateral deflection you hook your wrist over the top of his wrist and let your forearm drop ( a bit like a gate on a hinge) and redirect his strike down and to the side.
There is a lot more surface area of your arm to use so it doesn't have to be as precise as a lateral parry so it is a bit safer , you are using two different force vectors at once to effect his balance( simultaneously down and laterally) the theory of using simultaneous multiple force vectors to defeat the opponent is used in the Wing Chun 2nd empty hand form called Chum Kiu.
If the attacker is really charging in and committing his body mass , his head and upper body can be pulled straight down into a strike to side of his neck with your other hand
Ideal for use against any type of lunging straight punches coming down the center.
There is a lot more surface area of your arm to use so it doesn't have to be as precise as a lateral parry so it is a bit safer , you are using two different force vectors at once to effect his balance( simultaneously down and laterally) the theory of using simultaneous multiple force vectors to defeat the opponent is used in the Wing Chun 2nd empty hand form called Chum Kiu.
If the attacker is really charging in and committing his body mass , his head and upper body can be pulled straight down into a strike to side of his neck with your other hand
Ideal for use against any type of lunging straight punches coming down the center.
I have no problem with deflecting the elbow but if you do it like is shown in the video I reckon you'll be hit 9 out of 10 times from a committed strike. We have a saying ... two hands for beginners, and that applies at least up to 9th dan.
If there had been a parry with the other hand first, then you would be protected from the strike and able to carry the elbow. Whether you move off the line or take your attacker off the line depends on your training. Personally, I would parry with the left and take the elbow with my right. That then opens him for a head shot, or ribs, with your left.
Exactly. Although a parry as the primary defence will do the same thing and take your attacker's centre at the same time.
The problem is to take the elbow with one hand as shown in this video you have to be watching the striking arm and not the body. Your instinctive protection is taken out of the equation and you are reacting, not being proactive.
:asian:
Just for the record, we also routinely practice this with an additional pass-off using the free hand prior (or after, depending on the technique) to engaging the blocking motion shown in the video. It depends on the circumstances; but we do practice both.
- Thread Starter
- #31
Just to clarify, move out of the line of attack first before entering the short distance of attack. In a street fight, this might not be possible if the opponent is moving in fast with his full body weight . If so, move the opponent's elbow to redirect his line of attack when he gets to the middle distance. An opponent cannot punch you once you have control of his elbow because you can change his line of attack easily. If you are still worried about the punch, protect your head with the Elbow Up technique using your other hand while simultaneously launching a followup attack if you miss your opponent's elbow with your first hand. It is also more than likely that your opponent has entered the short range by then so you can target his shoulder. Of course, this is dependent on the situation. For self defense purposes, I have kept it simple.
Sorry, not showing the most important part of the defence 'to keep it simple' doesn't wash. Taking control of the elbow is good technique but generally it requires two hands. What you have shown will earn a smack in the mouth from an experienced person.Just to clarify, move out of the line of attack first before entering the short distance of attack. In a street fight, this might not be possible if the opponent is moving in fast with his full body weight . If so, move the opponent's elbow to redirect his line of attack when he gets to the middle distance. An opponent cannot punch you once you have control of his elbow because you can change his line of attack easily. If you are still worried about the punch, protect your head with the Elbow Up technique using your other hand while simultaneously launching a followup attack if you miss your opponent's elbow with your first hand. It is also more than likely that your opponent has entered the short range by then so you can target his shoulder. Of course, this is dependent on the situation. For self defense purposes, I have kept it simple.
Sherman said:
You are right about that one for sure. It is possible to be quite defensive, but usually the opponent is either drunk, stoned or high, or a combo of all three. I've restrained idiots so juiced, that elbow would have done nothing. If they (as in FPP) were skilled, then yeah I can see it with good reach. No offence Sherman, just my own personal perspective
- Thread Starter
- #34
None taken, Transk53. Did you mean the Elbow to the face would have done nothing? Should probably have mentioned that Elbow should target the eyes and nose.
As for controlling the opponent's elbow, it can be done with one hand if the purpose is to shift the opponent's line of attack away from you, thus controlling both of the opponent's hands from striking you. Will probably show this in another video since this has been brought up a couple of times now.
Did you mean the Elbow to the face would have done nothing? Should probably have mentioned that Elbow should target the eyes and nose.As for controlling the opponent's elbow, it can be done with one hand if the purpose is to shift the opponent's line of attack away from you, thus controlling both of the opponent's hands from striking you. Will probably show this in another video since this has been brought up a couple of times now.
Mook, it is easier to miss if you're chasing the wrist than if you're going for the elbow. I'm not sure about slapping the elbow -- you have a point there. But pressing it is absolutely legitimate and widely used in our art. Taking an opponent's elbow is an excellent way to shut him down. More over, if you simply apply pressure to the wrist, it is easy to change through as we are so aware of in our chisao practice.
In any case, I don't think you should be chasing your opponents hand. You should simply cover the line, with your own line, directed at your opponent. That way you're bound to intercept, and your action is a threat to him regardless. Sticking to the principles of chasing the opponent's core, and not his hands, is the way to leave the most margin for error.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm… Sherman, I've suggested this before… but I'm going to again recommend that you put these in a new thread, preferably in either the "Self Defence" or "Members in Motion" forums… this area is really for welcoming new members… as a result, I wouldn't necessarily feel completely right about pointing out that each video has been fairly flawed, there are major issues in your personal skill level presently, and that the weapon defence here would have you killed pretty quickly. If you repost them in another area, I'll jump in and explain exactly why.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
I have never missed parrying the wrist ( hey that rhymes).
Even if you have slightly misjudged it , you can still use the inside of the forearm.
It is not easy for him change if you parry the wrist because he has already been hit with the other hand , it is all done in the one beat , not parry then punch with the other hand.
Its parry and punch at the same time.
It is not chasing the hand , his hand is coming straight down my guard all I have to do is wait for it to come and nudge it out of the way slightly.
I am not averse to controlling the elbow , if said elbow is on the centerline , then I will use Pak Sau to press and trap it against their body.
Hypothetical question for the elbow parry crowd , what if there is a very big disparity in the height of the combatants?
The dude has much longer arms than you , he moves in fast from close range , so you can't get out the way.
The further you have to stretch your arm out to parry his elbow in order for his fist not to reach you means you are losing the structure in your arm and force in your parry because your elbow is not properly behind it anymore.
But by parrying the wrist I can maintain proper biomechanics and have my elbow behind my parry so I have maximum force and a nice clear path of energy from my elbow and out through my palm , exactly as it is done in the form.
None taken, Transk53.
As for controlling the opponent's elbow, it can be done with one hand if the purpose is to shift the opponent's line of attack away from you, thus controlling both of the opponent's hands from striking you. Will probably show this in another video since this has been brought up a couple of times now.
No I think I meant the grab. I'll have to watch it again and recollect.
As long as one of your hands is chasing center, that's good. But, your opponent has another hand as well. That's why I believe it's always preferable to chase center with both hands whenever possible, so that either is a direct threat.
Maybe we're arguing apples and oranges though. It sounds like you're describing pak-sau from a point of contact, where his hand is already in contact with your guard. That is the best way to use pak-sau, and in that case, you can feel where he is definitively thanks to the contact you've made. I was refering more to the use of pak-sau in an out-of-contact context, as demonstrated in the video. It is not uncommon for me, at least, to find myself hitting thin air with another fist in my face upon trying to enter on someone with pak-da, for example. A fighter will often just pull his forward hand back and hit you with the other. That's what's dangerous about chasing the wrist while out of contact, I believe.
Incidentally, the same is true of intercepting round attacks on the inside. A lot of people try to intercept them at the wrist, but I feel that's far too risky. It's safer if your priorities go: step in, hit him, cover the line. You'll usually catch him around the elbow this way, but still with plenty of structure to avoid being hit yourself. And the important thing, of course, is that you're hitting him and disrupting his attack that way. Chasing the wrist, you have to turn further away from your opponent, and are more committed towards chasing his attack. Not only can you miss if he changes the line of his attack, but if you fail to connect, you're in a bad position for his follow up as you have more distance to turn.
Tok-sau. Get up underneath him
But, generally speaking, if his arms are fully extending to reach you, then his elbow will be somewhere around the half-way point. That allows you to intercept the elbow with a bent arm. At the same time, you should be moving in on him to counter, which further shortens the distance.
Usually you want to intercept before he's fully extending his fist to you, but we are talking about pressing the elbow, and generally, the best opportunity to do that is when your opponent's arm is fully extended and he has a weak structure anyway.
But I'm with you here. If you're over extending your arm to reach his elbow, you're putting yourself in danger.
I honestly don't think much about where I'm intercepting. I just close the line, threaten the opponent, and respond to pressure. And if an elbow presents itself, press it.
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