Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 48484
  • Start date

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some). This is consistent with my anecdotal observations. That's not going to do much for anyone.



Even if what I said above was a non-issue, that's not a good analogy. You continuously train for things that do not occur on a regular basis. Like fighting. If you're driving your car to work and back everyday, you're already staying sharp from that.
the fall off for most things people sign up for is considerable, commercial gyms over sell memberships by about 500 % as they know most of them are never going to turn up after the first week unless it for a skinny latte

gym fees seem to exist almost entirely as a fat guilt tax

that said if you can learn to drive to the point your allowed to take a killing machine out in public in three, months

then you should be able to learn to fight to a reasonable standard in the same time frame, admittedly some tma make this a difficult proposition, as they move at glacial speed, your likely to spend three months learn to move your left foot and your arm in a circle, which may be why so many quit?
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,819
Reaction score
5,693
I never bar hopped without a wing man... Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy. Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them! (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.) I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.

People raise these points and each one is this super complicated situation that takes pages of nuance to really understand and then throw lots of them in one post. That makes it so hard to go in to that it is just easier to let the dogma win.

So just this one section. Bjj teaches grappling but along with that teaches anti grappling. And so in an environment where you are being held on to you should be in a dominant position and be able to choose what you do.

This is very important.

It means if you are grabbed or thrown or held down you have the best tools to be un grabbed un thrown and un held down. So in a multiple attacker situation you have the best chance of negating their most effective option which is dog piling you on to the deck and beating you up.

Alternatively. If I also have a wing man and can effectively hold you down then you are fighting from positional disadvantage.

Which raises the next point.

Positional disadvantage negates striking. So if you are a very good striker and I am a poor striker, but I am sitting on top of you or have a dominant clinch then my striking will pretty much be more effective. So in these positions the best striker is actually the best grappler.

Also the more dominant position I strike from the more likely I am to stop the guy I am fighting and less likely to be stopped by him. So if I am standing up trading shots with three guys there are three times as many punches coming at my head as I can physically dish out. And the likely hood of me being able to drop even one of them before I get dropped isn't actually very good.

This is where the risk of going to ground or clinching and throwing effective unopposed shots becomes a bit more viable. Say it takes your mate 10 seconds to cover distance and go for me. I could have ten seconds of basically unopposed striking before he rolled up. Then I could stand up and deal with your mate or run off or all sorts of things. Where if I am trading stand up for ten seconds and a second guy shows up I have just lowered my odds considerably. And I am probably as gassed and beaten up as the guy I am fighting.

Now all of these options are risk assessments there is no hard and fast rule to determine when to do what.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,819
Reaction score
5,693
BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker. Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder? Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them? If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by. Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...

You generally dont have to resuscitate anyone from a choke. They mostly just wake up of their own accord. Yes people die. But people also die from being punched in the head.



All that back slapping or feet raising is basically unnecessary drama.

And so how would you use this in real life?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7nb4MN7OYPswjj7RRi_0mndYfIrC8Ef
 
Last edited:

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
Stats are a form of evidence. But I don't expect you to know that.
they are, but so is just about anything else that isnt totally dependent on your unsupported opinion,

so far its unsupported opinion that your been subjecting us to, which isnt therefore commonly accepted as being evidential
 

Urban Trekker

Brown Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
459
Reaction score
150
Location
Hampton, VA
they are, but so is just about anything else that isnt totally dependent on your unsupported opinion,

so far its unsupported opinion that your been subjecting us to, which isnt therefore commonly accepted as being evidential

Same goes for gpseymour. We both based our statements on anecdotal observations. We both admitted it.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,499
Reaction score
1,089
In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ? I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.

I never bar hopped without a wing man... Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy. Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them! (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.) I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.

The Lone Mugger scenario.. a high percentage use a weapon. I don't know, nor have seen any grappler who could deal with a serious knife attack..i.e. without taking a serious, possibly life ending wound(s).. Every mock scenario I've seen on youtube or witnessed hat starts with a very aggressive sewing machine attack, the grapple defense falters, and breaks.. if successful.. serious, often fatal wounds would have been acquired during the defense. (No one talks about going into shock and what happens to the body when that happens) Because of the lethalness of knife attacks FBI and law enforcement teach distance (i.e. mobility as a defense) while employing a firearm.

Ok... So one get's lucky and runs into a Thug Mugger who uses his fists to thrash money and valuables from his victim, that's a level of violence few even if "booked up on technique" are prepared for. The best can and do freeze. OK trained BJJ guy submits the thug... Then what.. ??? Hold him tell he says "Uncle" then let him up? In an ally? A deserted parking lot? rool the dice and let him up? Dislocate, break... what? Who trains to end someone's life? Going further on the this .... the BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker. Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder? Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them? If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by. Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...

There's a lot of assumptions in this post. I'll try to address them point by point;

Single/Multiple Attackers: Whether I stuck with Karate or did what I did and switched over to Bjj, I'm not engaging in a fight unless someone forces me to fight them. If someone is putting up their dukes, I don't need to engage, I can just get away. If someone whips out a knife, I can still get away. The only point where I have to engage is if someone grabs me and doesn't allow me to leave. In that situation, Bjj is the better option.

When it comes to submissions/chokes, it all depends on the level of violence. If my life is in danger, I'm breaking their limb, and I know multiple ways to break multiple limbs. Not a brag, simply a reality of training Bjj for almost 2 decades. Additionally, for what to break? You can break their leg(s) so that they can't get up regardless of what they're hopped up on. Popping a shoulder in incredibly painful and will stop people in their tracks and can be done from multiple positions (including standing) while on the offensive via the Kimura. I would only do an arm bar from a defensive position.

Chokes are another option, and contrary to popular belief, it's rather hard to kill someone with a choke. A properly applied choke will knock out the typical person in a matter of seconds, and it can take about 15-20 seconds for them to wake up, and up to a few minutes for them to collect their thoughts. That's plenty of time to escape the situation. The only point where you would kill someone with a choke is if you slapped on a choke and didn't let up for several minutes. That is completely unnecessary, because again, a person will go limp from a properly applied choke in a matter of seconds.

In either case, a limb break or a choke is preferable to attempting to pummel an assailant with blows.

I'm a firm believer you react under extreme pressure by how you train and what methods you train in. I see a lot of rolling in BJJ, which IMO is counter intuitive to effective self defense... which is always based around mobility using distance as a defense. I've had BJJ guys say .. that's exactly what I'd train to do i.e. "maintain distance!"

The reason you see guys rolling around in Bjj is because you're seeing two grapplers with skill going at it. If I'm in a self defense encounter, there's a pretty high chance that the person assaulting me isn't as skilled a grappler, so it would take significantly less time to subdue them than it would me subduing a classmate. It would be like rolling with a white belt, which advanced BJJ practitioners do constantly for that very reason.

Also again, I'm only engaging if the attacker has left me no other option, and that mainly only happens if the assailant has grabbed me and made it impossible for me to leave. So yes I'll maintain distance until the assailant takes that away from me.

Ok... then what about that is different or superior to Karate?...

From my perspective and maybe I'm missing something and I could be... but I don't see a lot of reality outside of sport in BJJ. Most BJJ focus on Rolling, take downs, slips, entering, mount technique, guard technique, submissions, chokes etc etc Yes... Yes...and yes.... that's really effective mono vs mono or in sport... Yet..... In Reality it is extremely rare a "duel to the death" by hand to hand combat happens . I just don't read that in the newspapers...

Face Saving" violence. Drunk on Drunk... Drunk vs Sober... scenarios like that... all martial arts IMO are equal.
IMO.... Urban Trekker basically dropped the mic and walked out the room and ended this thread with the " for a scenario beyond that,(i.e Saving Face in School Yard scenario) you need to be going the range regularly. I totally agree... training with a focus on mobility and employing a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon preferably a firearm ) is training self defense. Period... all other school yard scenarios Karate is sufficient

Yeah, see above. Again, being able to snap a limb quickly or choking someone out is far more effective and efficient than punching or kicking someone. In addition, there's plenty of violent situations that Karate simply doesn't prepare you for. Being on your back with someone on top of you immediately comes to mind.
 
Last edited:

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
Same goes for gpseymour. We both based our statements on anecdotal observations. We both admitted it.
anecdotes can be evidential, what not so is other peoples anecdotes, that's hearsay, as soon as you say" this guy told me" or I read somewhere, but forgot where it's not your anecdote

all so not evidence is opinions based on your anecdotes, unless you add, "in my considered opinion "or similar.

to make it clear what's evidence and what's your opinion of the evidence
 

Paul Calugaru

Yellow Belt
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
33
Reaction score
16
People raise these points and each one is this super complicated situation that takes pages of nuance to really understand and then throw lots of them in one post. That makes it so hard to go in to that it is just easier to let the dogma win.

So just this one section. Bjj teaches grappling but along with that teaches anti grappling. And so in an environment where you are being held on to you should be in a dominant position and be able to choose what you do.

This is very important.

It means if you are grabbed or thrown or held down you have the best tools to be un grabbed un thrown and un held down. So in a multiple attacker situation you have the best chance of negating their most effective option which is dog piling you on to the deck and beating you up.

Alternatively. If I also have a wing man and can effectively hold you down then you are fighting from positional disadvantage.

Which raises the next point.

Positional disadvantage negates striking. So if you are a very good striker and I am a poor striker, but I am sitting on top of you or have a dominant clinch then my striking will pretty much be more effective. So in these positions the best striker is actually the best grappler.

Also the more dominant position I strike from the more likely I am to stop the guy I am fighting and less likely to be stopped by him. So if I am standing up trading shots with three guys there are three times as many punches coming at my head as I can physically dish out. And the likely hood of me being able to drop even one of them before I get dropped isn't actually very good.

This is where the risk of going to ground or clinching and throwing effective unopposed shots becomes a bit more viable. Say it takes your mate 10 seconds to cover distance and go for me. I could have ten seconds of basically unopposed striking before he rolled up. Then I could stand up and deal with your mate or run off or all sorts of things. Where if I am trading stand up for ten seconds and a second guy shows up I have just lowered my odds considerably. And I am probably as gassed and beaten up as the guy I am fighting.

Now all of these options are risk assessments there is no hard and fast rule to determine when to do what.

You generally dont have to resuscitate anyone from a choke. They mostly just wake up of their own accord. Yes people die. But people also die from being punched in the head.



All that back slapping or feet raising is basically unnecessary drama.

And so how would you use this in real life?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7nb4MN7OYPswjj7RRi_0mndYfIrC8Ef

Both great posts! I was being honest when I said I wasnt trolling and trying to understand the mindset of a grappler when it came to self defense. Imo... I think you did an excellent job clueing me in!
Most appreciated!
 

Urban Trekker

Brown Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
459
Reaction score
150
Location
Hampton, VA
anecdotes can be evidential, what not so is other peoples anecdotes, that's hearsay, as soon as you say" this guy told me" or I read somewhere, but forgot where it's not your anecdote

all so not evidence is opinions based on your anecdotes, unless you add, "in my considered opinion "or similar.

to make it clear what's evidence and what's your opinion of the evidence

Say.... WHAAAAAAT? I'm not even gonna try to figure that out. You win.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,800
Reaction score
8,224
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Stats are a form of evidence. But I don't expect you to know that.
They are. You might notice you said "a form of evidence". Not the only one, and the statements I made were clearly stated as personal observations. Those should be taken with a grain of salt, since such are generally not supportable by evidence. But since I made no claim beyond my personal observations, they don't really require additional support.

If you disagree with what I've observed, perhaps share what you think is either incorrect or not generalizable about my statements, rather than just ranting.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,800
Reaction score
8,224
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Same goes for gpseymour. We both based our statements on anecdotal observations. We both admitted it.
Yes, and the only time I brought up evidence was when you made two statements in a row that seemed meant to be connected, but didn't logically connect.

Absent that implied/inferred connection, the discussion could easily have just continued.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,800
Reaction score
8,224
Location
Hendersonville, NC
There's a lot of assumptions in this post. I'll try to address them point by point;

Single/Multiple Attackers: Whether I stuck with Karate or did what I did and switched over to Bjj, I'm not engaging in a fight unless someone forces me to fight them. If someone is putting up their dukes, I don't need to engage, I can just get away. If someone whips out a knife, I can still get away. The only point where I have to engage is if someone grabs me and doesn't allow me to leave. In that situation, Bjj is the better option.

When it comes to submissions/chokes, it all depends on the level of violence. If my life is in danger, I'm breaking their limb, and I know multiple ways to break multiple limbs. Not a brag, simply a reality of training Bjj for almost 2 decades. Additionally, for what to break? You can break their leg(s) so that they can't get up regardless of what they're hopped up on. Popping a shoulder in incredibly painful and will stop people in their tracks and can be done from multiple positions (including standing) while on the offensive via the Kimura. I would only do an arm bar from a defensive position.

Chokes are another option, and contrary to popular belief, it's rather hard to kill someone with a choke. A properly applied choke will knock out the typical person in a matter of seconds, and it can take about 15-20 seconds for them to wake up, and up to a few minutes for them to collect their thoughts. That's plenty of time to escape the situation. The only point where you would kill someone with a choke is if you slapped on a choke and didn't let up for several minutes. That is completely unnecessary, because again, a person will go limp from a properly applied choke in a matter of seconds.

In either case, a limb break or a choke is preferable to attempting to pummel an assailant with blows.



The reason you see guys rolling around in Bjj is because you're seeing two grapplers with skill going at it. If I'm in a self defense encounter, there's a pretty high chance that the person assaulting me isn't as skilled a grappler, so it would take significantly less time to subdue them than it would me subduing a classmate. It would be like rolling with a white belt, which advanced BJJ practitioners do constantly for that very reason.

Also again, I'm only engaging if the attacker has left me no other option, and that mainly only happens if the assailant has grabbed me and made it impossible for me to leave. So yes I'll maintain distance until the assailant takes that away from me.



Yeah, see above. Again, being able to snap a limb quickly or choking someone out is far more effective and efficient than punching or kicking someone. In addition, there's plenty of violent situations that Karate simply doesn't prepare you for. Being on your back with someone on top of you immediately comes to mind.
Literally the only thing I could find to disagree with (because I can't go around agreeing with you, dangit!) is that leaving is necessarily an option against a knife. Before my foot surgery, I rather routinely had days when leaving would have been a fast jog at best. Same would go for some injuries I've had (oddly, most of them not from MA). In those cases, striking probably just gets me to where I can grapple for my life. If I can get possession of the knife arm, I'm never giving it back.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,499
Reaction score
1,089
Literally the only thing I could find to disagree with (because I can't go around agreeing with you, dangit!) is that leaving is necessarily an option against a knife. Before my foot surgery, I rather routinely had days when leaving would have been a fast jog at best. Same would go for some injuries I've had (oddly, most of them not from MA). In those cases, striking probably just gets me to where I can grapple for my life. If I can get possession of the knife arm, I'm never giving it back.

Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,800
Reaction score
8,224
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).
Unless you're Bruce Wayne's parents. Nothing will save you then.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).
one, the best way to avoid having your wallet stolen is not to have a wallet, lots of people miss this simple solution

2) however they are not likely to belive you so extending the encounter whilst you convince them
3) best to have a wallet with a modest amount of money in it, so they leave reasonably satisfied with their work,
whilst you have your wealth in your sock
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,499
Reaction score
1,089
one, the best way to avoid having your wallet stolen is not to have a wallet, lots of people miss this simple solution

2) however they are not likely to belive you so extending the encounter whilst you convince them
3) best to have a wallet with a modest amount of money in it, so they leave reasonably satisfied with their work,
whilst you have your wealth in your sock

I haven't carried cash in quite some time. My money is wrapped up in bank/debit cards. If someone steals them, I can simply cancel them and order new ones.

That's kind of my point; Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged. There's nothing in that wallet that can't be replaced relatively quickly.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
I haven't carried cash in quite some time. My money is wrapped up in bank/debit cards. If someone steals them, I can simply cancel them and order new ones.

That's kind of my point; Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged. There's nothing in that wallet that can't be replaced relatively quickly.
but it's best to give them money carry a modest amount for that purpose, they are more likely to leave quickly than want too frisk you for any money you might have in your sock, or decided they are accompanying you to the auto bank
they have an appointment with a drug dealer, get them on their way quickly
 
Top