Shotokan for self defence.

Tez3

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I do have stressed this move against a much stronger and bigger opponent assumin i was the weaker girl.

If you have made this drill by yourself instead of came here so diligently pointing the flaws of what you have saw just on the vid you will end up realizing all the move is real. Besides that i agree only with that if the guy really grabs hard it will very hard to release the hand as showned in the vid.

But anyways he will fall and lost balance when you transition to zenkutsu coz hes not expecting that. I havent told the guy i was about to do this just told its a karate drill and that he have to grab hard both of my wrists.

Now hes on the ground prone to get his head kicked while you still up there. Maybe you need a video footage of that also?

I'm sorry but I am that weaker girl and I did just try this out to see what would happen and DaveB is correct, it doesn't work. I'm not speculating on this, I tried it out with a couple of guys, as self defence it doesn't work.
 

DaveB

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I'm sorry but I am that weaker girl and I did just try this out to see what would happen and DaveB is correct, it doesn't work. I'm not speculating on this, I tried it out with a couple of guys, as self defence it doesn't work.

The most important points about any grasping attack are the liklihood of multiple assailants and that the real thing will not be static. Either you are being dragged or pinned.

Any defense you try will need to account for these and the simplest way to address both elements is by using body movement to avoid/overtake the grasper's energy and to place the attacker between you and any other attackers.

From the hiean kata the best double wrist escape comes from the opening of hiean yondan:
Applied kokutsudachi from neutral stance is a lateral body shift, dragging the opponent with your bodyweight (not your arm) and changing your angle relative to their applied power.

Circle the arms over head. The drag from the opponents grip will cause you to cross hands, clearing their grip on one of yours and potentially trapping both of their hands with your one, leaving you free to strike etc.
 

RafaChan

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If you have made this drill by yourself instead of came here so diligently pointing the flaws of what you have saw just on the vid you will end up realizing all the move is real. Besides that i agree only with that if the guy really grabs hard it will very hard to release the hand as showned in the vid.

Yes...this move can be performed... but... as highlighted above ^^ its the implict condition above that can tell if it really will happen or not...but note that very hard still not impossible...

Im pretty sure thats why Tez were not being able to do that. I was not there to see but i can guess that guys were holding her wrists very hard...

Those are one of the conditions that one can check while in a SD situation and by that can look which technique will be the best to apply.

For example: Is the guy holding your wrists, arm that hard? Is the guy holding the gun at you that hard, focused and tense or is he shaking trembling unstable and looking to the sides a lot ?

So in that specific case, gedan barai pretty much wont be doing the magic alone. But you will have to make that inside wrist/hand turn in their thumb direction to force the opening more easily... thats why i told about age shuto also if u have noted. Not only on yondan but shodan with age shuto its pretty much lauching the basis for that hidden cloud sweeping hands of unsu...

Gedan Barai wrist release and take down. Iain Abernethy

If you won't listen to me, maybe you will listen to a group of self defense application specialist. Note I've not waited for responses to the thread that support me because I know that they will.

Always nice to see others opinion judging by their own experiences. But i dont tend to be biased by those said specialists in a hurry but rather i prefer to apply what they are saying by myself and check what will be better. I personally have met some ''self titled'' self defense intructors that had even some good credibility but in reality with almost zero practical experience in IRL SD aplications. Not saying its your case or the case of posters. But well, thats not the point.

Its not that easy to judge and come to say whats viable or not by looking unidiretional before not even stressed that in some way with more than one condition as i pointed. I myself had my couple of real fights out there and i can say out of the moves i did (mostly karate and thai ones) what was usefull or not, regarding the particular opponent i was facing and his specific bio-type.

You really can't see what is wrong with a technique that relies on the attacker re-grabbing the other wrist after she releases her hand when nothing compels him to do so?

First of all, and like ive said, i came to that conclusion of viability not coz of that vid alone, but when practicing bunkai of [gedan barai - age shuto - age uke] moves of heian shodan as strong combos that allows wrist escape, joint lock and trow. So thats lead me to start research around YT and check more of that bunkai moves aplications to check if i could found something about those being done in YT. Thats the way ive found that vid. Was not the vid that made me think initially, the vid was not the first cause the way are you pointing and looking at. The vid alone has its limitations when applying to a resistant opponent but in principle its right under conditions that ive said.

Initially, as i said in the previous post, the wrist escape in heian shodan i was practicing was made with age shuto (starting to move to the inside), and if you could i would like to see your opinion on that too and opinion of tez if you guys might think its viable. That age shuto its a response to a wrist grab on the gedan barai starting from move 6 than age shuto and wrist release at 7 as ive said previously. Gedan barai being the opening move that allows a wrist escape with that age shuto.

The girls vid alone showned another situation, applying only gedan barai and zenkutsu balance mess. And the practice have showned me that was not specifically a wrist release in the begining but a balance mess that ends with a strong zenkutsu transition in any angle to the side trapping the opponent front leg from behind. That way he will fall and ending releasing the wrists coz he now have to set a guard or grab your leg trying to defend his layed down body. Its viable like ive said.

If you think it can work then answer the specific criticisms. How will this help if there is a second opponent?

That hypothesis of yours its leading to just one direction. That confirms your uni-diretional view but ok. The case is if the girl have her wrists grabbed and theres a second guy the context its saying that things will be pretty much requiring a massive knee to the testicles before trying to attempt in other moves or just her running away. Thats my take on that. You judge the situation guided by that hypothesis of the second guy ofc will limit a lot the possibility of other techniques...

What is stopping the assailant from grabbing or hitting the girl's head once his hand is released?

As showned in the vid she will make the turn and the release in a one single fluid moment. The guy will be going on the floor with that already, with his hand released or not. Down there he will have few options: protect his head from a step/kick or try to grab a leg maybe...
 

Tez3

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Always nice to see others opinion judging by their own experiences. But i dont tend to be biased by those said specialists in a hurry but rather i prefer to apply what they are saying by myself and check what will be better

I've trained with Iain Abernethy so I'm very well acquainted with his methods, what he does too is when you are training is give you variations for you in relation to your size, strength etc. If something doesn't work for me, I don't use it, I have plenty of techniques that I know work for me so I won't take risks using something that may/may not work.
If you only train something with your partner not gripping tightly you are doing yourself a great disservice, train realistically or don't bother.
 

RafaChan

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I've trained with Iain Abernethy so I'm very well acquainted with his methods, what he does too is when you are training is give you variations for you in relation to your size, strength etc.

You adressed one of a very fundamental aspect regarding kata bunkai here.

''Each kata is said to cover a complete combat system, wich varies in content and appearence, according to the creator's unique body set up.'' Burgar, Five years one kata pages 29/30.

I would add, as ive said, thats the body set up of the opponent really matters also when you think of the right tech. Unfortunelly, i myself have learned that the hard way. Now i keep my eyes wide open.

If something doesn't work for me, I don't use it, I have plenty of techniques that I know work for me so I won't take risks using something that may/may not work.

You are right and thats pretty much my same line of thinking.

If you only train something with your partner not gripping tightly you are doing yourself a great disservice, train realistically or don't bother.

Not really. As ive said to dave and i think he doesnt gave the fair importance: SD scenarios involves not only de-escalation but also escalation of force. Softer grips can happens when the hard things are almost going to happen next. In that case the guy that wanna drag the girl attention forcefully while she pass. Thats happening a lot by here 'realistically' speaking.

But dave insists only with the 2 guys going to attack the hardest way scenario and by that the tech its the utterly of trash. Ofc each tech and move have their own limitations and reach depending of the situations and scenarios. Sorry but your friend has being kinda hard on what ive told (extremist?) and close minded here. But i do agree if you guys think that can be a ''culturally'' impossible scenario for you. At least you miss took time to see by yourself instead of just being sitted typing behind the keyboard and i respect that a lot. Its easy to disagree if you just keep looking in one direction and not even going to check by yourself.

Finally the good thing about that gedan barai soft wrist swep its that the guy will end up on the ground in a very disadvantageous position. A thing that the techs designed for the very hard hand grips wont be allowing you to do that way... my loved unsu very hard hand grip release here also.

Thats why i stated the age shuto hand swept. Thats for a pretty ''very hard grip'' release wrist-hand swep technique and you can check by yourself too. Its on heian shodan also but really...i know people even of the 4th dan that dont know this and you can check a lot of heian shodans being performed on YT with people doing the age shuto part not doing with the adequated hand movement and a lot of people even not doing it forgeting that age shuto exists on this kata.

Im not saying that heian shodan nor the heian series are the supreme upper-dupper kata. Not really. But in that case, heian shodan its a pretty decent aswer for the starters.

As an example of the age shuto tech performed the right way with the right intention on the kata ill show you the vid above (after quite extensive research):


On 00:21... Unfortunelly couldnt have found any bunkai for that on YT. I know that YT can represent the supreme contestation of truth for a lot of people including here on that forum but fortunelly still exist some people that can search thing by theirselves putting things in experimentation.

Peace !
 
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RafaChan

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FIRST NEGATIVE CRITICISM: On the overhead hammer-strike bunkai to the opponent's head, in the 1st leg of heian godan, I think this as presented is a bit impractical & rigid. Shotokan KARATE phys-ed form...

Infamous hammer-fist tetsui uchi strike. In heian shodan bunkai thats a response that one do after the third move if the enemy happens to grab your wrist in that gedan barai. Again... i have stressed it and if its a very hard grip that circular swep movement before the strike wont be releasing you.

But if the guys its not that hard and not expecting it, thats a highly desirable wrist release tech besides you are defending and attacking with the same hand (hen te concept), and whats better, the attacking its going to hit from an unexpected angle.

And thats why i dont train only looking to one direction. That way i can have even perform a wrist release and strike at the same time...

On the vid above: 00:15 he makes that so obvious in a way most people forgets or just dont do the right way when they do perform this kata.
 

Tez3

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I think though that if you train with someone using a hard grip and can get out of it getting out of a soft grip is easy. If you train for the hardest scenario then it's a bonus if your attacker doesn't use techniques full on, it's a case perhaps of expect and train for the worst that can happen, you can't hope that your attacker uses a looser grip.
 

RafaChan

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That's because you're ghost-writing for K-Man. You quote the Machida / Romero match, and so Machida // NOT // engaging with karate effectiveness was actually the highest risk approach Machida could have taken against Romero....And yes, there is a lot to say for K-Man's approach. Perhaps the mentally easier approach is to wait and counter, so that is why the lower level of mental intensity is emphasized in the Shotokan black=belt curriculum... The mental dimension training provides the calmness to act in stressful situations. How many can dedicate this training, it's a minority. You & K-Man have left out some depth on focusing on the issue this way....

Talking by myself here... one can develop a very solid counter attack based strategy working with a lot of different array of passive-agressive tactics. And i must and will tell you this is not that easy the way you talking about. Ofc that in the case of machida when people its already expecting that he will start with some disadvantage.

And btw i think you underestimating the power of machidas left gyaku a lot...hes a very good sniper and him being lefted...even belfort refused to went against him by that. ''im not going. havent trained to went against a lefted...hhmmm... you guess... i can agree a little about his jabs tho...but its normal, everyone will always have room for improvement...and im with him being the winner or not. His family is divided rite now. Parents from his mom and wife side are telling him to stop while bigger part of the others are telling the oppposite.

And now theres a chance for him to come back with something new... lets see... i think will be him against jacar矇 next...
 

RafaChan

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I think though that if you train with someone using a hard grip and can get out of it getting out of a soft grip is easy. If you train for the hardest scenario then it's a bonus if your attacker doesn't use techniques full on, it's a case perhaps of expect and train for the worst that can happen, you can't hope that your attacker uses a looser grip.

So i must tell you that the techs i told above designed for that 'hard grip release' they are even easier to perform both in the case of a single hard wrist grab or both wrists.
Thats why i do train for both scenarios twists without limiting myself about what will be the most likely thing to happen. Theres no that ''unreal'' thing dave dropped on me since from the start.

The objective of the techs are the same... but the consequences of each one for the opponent and his position its what makes them really unique and usefull depending of the situation and of what you want. Grip not so tied and you want him losing balance prone to go ground ? Ofc the hard grip releases ive told will work over all.

The best way to see whats happening for real ? Fast push and pull to feel the guy grip pressure and to check in wich degree your arms can move and if thats possible while arguing with the guy...no sir, no sir im such a tender girl :dummy1:

I can agree with you and dave that in the case of that girl on the vid the grip applied on her was 'super soft' that she even managed to release one hand. But ive saw that movement potential since the first sight.

I could not manage that the same way she did coz i stressed the tech under some resistance since from the start as i told...

The 'soft grip' people used on me allowed me to move my arms enough to cross them and do that gedan barai the exact way she did, but it was not soft (compliant) enough for me to release one of my hands like her. And not even soft enough in a point that i wont be in the need of a specific technique to release and not soft enough that allowed me to punch...

I hope we could get always the better results from each situation.
 

Tez3

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Usually a baton and handcuffs solved my problem with men trying to grab :cool:
 

DaveB

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[QUOTE="RafaChan, post: 1715783, member: 33651"
That hypothesis of yours its leading to just one direction. That confirms your uni-diretional view but ok. The case is if the girl have her wrists grabbed and theres a second guy the context its saying that things will be pretty much requiring a massive knee to the testicles before trying to attempt in other moves or just her running away. Thats my take on that. You judge the situation guided by that hypothesis of the second guy ofc will limit a lot the possibility of other techniques.....[/QUOTE]

You're right, I do limit my thinking. I limit to techniques that work for situations that might actually occur.

This is a self defense thread pertaining to a self defense art.

The bottom line is efficiency in training. You can never train for every exact situation, so you train for the most serious and the most common. Then you rely on the flexibility and combat sense you have developed to guide you through everything else.

You gain nothing playing around with techniques that don't work when tested with strength. If your assailant uses a soft grip you use the same technique as if they have used a hard grip. Equally if your technique is sound for a realistic attack, it will work just as well against the idiot who does something so dumb that you didn't train for it.

You are not limiting your ability to respond, you are making sure your responses are effective.

And working with false assumptions about the self defense environment is just dangerous.

A knee to the groin is not a guaranteed win because all men have been learning to defend against it since childhood. It also leaves you vulnerable to the second attacker. That's why the tactic I described began with moving away from the danger. The groin/low kick is always there; in fact it is implied as a function of kokutsudachi, but you must be in a place of relative safety to employ it.

Incidentally the efficiency built into the kata means that you can use this kata movement as a defense to any grasping attack from the front. Train one movement and defend against a whole class of attack.

Lastly, the age shuto uke works fine as a single wrist release. Single arm releases are more common and less tactically specific.
 

RafaChan

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Usually a baton and handcuffs solved my problem with men trying to grab :cool:

Uops things getting really dangerous now ;)

You're right, I do limit my thinking. I limit to techniques that work for situations that might actually occur.

Thats your right, i also have my own limits of techs and views. But please dave, dont limit what i can do judging only from your personal limits or just of what you think its viable or ideal coz my limits borders often expand.

This is a self defense thread pertaining to a self defense art.

Again... what you think its the ideal and real limiting hard other options for SD. And here is you acting like that foundamentalist that you hate so much...

The bottom line is efficiency in training. You can never train for every exact situation, so you train for the most serious and the most common. Then you rely on the flexibility and combat sense you have developed to guide you through everything else.

The most common for your environment its not the most common in my enviroment like i told. Uni-diretional way of thinking again. Not telling that your techs are wrong but you just close others and yourself for another possibilities and that is whats wrong with you for me.

You gain nothing playing around with techniques that don't work when tested with strength.

Read my posts above again man... you can gain a really expressive position advantage...you told earlier that in SD things are dynamic but now you saying thats not happening and have to be trained just in one way.

And working with false assumptions about the self defense environment is just dangerous.

Softer single and double hand grips can happens more frequent than you can even imagine in a lot of SD enviroments. Dont know why you insist in assuming im making false assumptions here. I can see only a man who feels the need and the hurry to hijack others way of thinking. A hard grip release like age shuto can be even more dangerous if you dont manage to gain any advantage with that if you choose it over the softer wrist release in a softer grab.

A knee to the groin is not a guaranteed win because all men have been learning to defend against it since childhood. It also leaves you vulnerable to the second attacker. That's why the tactic I described began with moving away from the danger. The groin/low kick is always there; in fact it is implied as a function of kokutsudachi, but you must be in a place of relative safety to employ it.

From my childhood memories i just can tell you that is pretty damn painfull and effective and a lot of times it caught me by surprise. Learn to defend it since childhood ? Thats why people are paying for thai and krav classes learning how to defend against knee strikes coz they knew it since their childhood...baaa

All i can say its in SD scenarios that will be pretty much unexpected but wait, you just know that someone will be expecting that also rite ? So again my assumption here its false and incorrect, no knees to the balls... kekeke... all right sir, all the way you want. Im not going further with this you can start your teachings ill be all ears. :headphone:

Btw a knee strike can be trown from other stances also and even from a neutral one but mostly from zenkutsu...Relative safety place to employ it???? wtf... where in the world launching a knee strike inside others clinch or at close range can be considered a safety position? sry thats a really false assumption.

Lastly, the age shuto uke works fine as a single wrist release. Single arm releases are more common and less tactically specific.

Finally we can agree :yawn: in the first part of the sentence. Age shuto is effective overall anykind of hand grips pressure and can open space for a wide array of tactics.

I know a very simple (and i mean very very its so beatifull and natural) easy double wrist release that will function against very hard grips also. And guess what, age shuto its just the foundation for that.

But i pass, go on dave. I think you have a lot of more than me to contribute on this thread coz you are the maximum representative of the only and supreme real deal thing. Please show us...
 
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dugite61

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Quite a few years ago now when I was in the Aussie navy I was exiting a pub in Geelong (for pizza of course) when I was attacked from behind by 3 attackers who had planned on gaining my wallet and taking my pizza money, luckily for me the one first attacking alerted me by saying "hey mate" as he was launching a kick at my head, I automatically found myself without thinking pivoting, blocking and catching that kick while striking with a Shuto Uchi to the throat and sweeping his other foot putting him on the deck and out of the picture, the next closest attacker I managed a lucky shot of a Yoko Kekomi Geri to the Solar Plexus and then the rest of the defence was purely mongrel street fighting with maybe a technique thrown in here and there but I don't really remember as I really like pizza. I was then joined by my mates who had been a minute or so behind me who then assisted with the clean up till the Police arrived who initially were going to arrest me. By the end they said thanks as apparently the attackers had been mugging quite a few in the past in that area.
I tell this story not as a boast but like many Martial Artists one is never sure until it happens in the "real world" whether ones training will work or not.
There is always conversations over which Martial Art is better than others and which would and wouldn't work in real life, BTW I have respect for all. I have competed in sports Karate in the past but now my love is for traditional karate but I have also trained in Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu (Japanese). Just a few weeks ago I was reunited with one of me mates that was there that night and he is a practitioner of BJJ, as we were beering the old conversation of Shotokan v/s BJJ in the "real world" came up and he actually agreed that if I had of gone shoot and down to the deck with the first attacker that night I would have been stuffed because of the other two and the story would have ended differently with more than one attacker.
That all being said I think that too many believe that a couple of classes a week will solve all of the problems, but the real truth is there the same as for the 70's or 80's in that you must invest your own time outside the Dojo to sharpen the skills learn't within.
Kata I believe still has a very relevant position for those like me who have a love of the traditions, I also believe that many of the blocks and strikes in the many Kata's have a relevant position in today's defence and counter situations also Kata's are an excellent tool in perfecting moving and transition, but if this is what you want to get out of your Kata you must go deeper than the sports side of the Kata which seems to be the trend and most popular which only emphasizes the dramatic and not the practical but looks very good.
Anyway enough of my dribble and just my humble opinion
Cheers.
 

Tez3

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Thats your right, i also have my own limits of techs and views. But please dave, dont limit what i can do judging only from your personal limits or just of what you think its viable or ideal coz my limits borders often expand.
Are you trying to put him down here, if so you are wrong, he's not limiting anyone, like me and most others DaveB is practical.


Uni-diretional way of thinking again.

I'm not sure what this means.

you can gain a really expressive position advantage

Again I'm sorry I don't know what you mean.

From my childhood memories i just can tell you that is pretty damn painfull and effective and a lot of times it caught me by surprise.

In MMA fights as well as altercations on 'the street' I've seen guys take hits there and carry on with only a wince, while it may well be painful it's also true that alcohol and adrenaline as well as anger etc can mask the pain long enough for a man to carry on attacking. It's true as well that when attacking men will take a stance that minimises the chance of a blow to his family jewels, we teach that should should never take it for granted that it will floor them.

But i pass, go on dave. I think you have a lot of more than me to contribute on this thread coz you are the maximum representative of the only and supreme real deal thing. Please show us...

I think you are being sarcastic here and there's no need for that.

but if this is what you want to get out of your Kata you must go deeper than the sports side of the Kata which seems to be the trend and most popular which only emphasizes the dramatic and not the practical but looks very good.

Absolutely, this is why I go when Iain Abernethy is teaching, plus follow his articles and videos, he introduces other instructors too, it's not all about him!
 

DaveB

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Read my posts above again man... you can gain a really expressive position advantage...you told earlier that in SD things are dynamic but now you saying thats not happening and have to be trained just in one way.

No you read my post again. I said techniques that don't work . That means you won't get any position advantage from them because they don't do what they are meant to do under pressure. They don't work.

Techniques that give you a position advantage are under the group that Do Work.

Now if you can make that application in the video work, then great, but I will not believe that until I see it.

As for training one way, I never said that. There are lots of ways to train and lots of combinations of skills to train in. My one point in this thread is that your training has to be appropriate to your goals, and where your goal is SD, that training needs to take into account the things that really happen, both in terms of common methods of assault and how we ourselves deal with violence.

I've given quite clear reasons why I think the video you posted falls short of this. If you don't want to accept those reasons that is up to you.

Softer single and double hand grips can happens more frequent than you can even imagine in a lot of SD enviroments. Dont know why you insist in assuming im making false assumptions here. I can see only a man who feels the need and the hurry to hijack others way of thinking. A hard grip release like age shuto can be even more dangerous if you dont manage to gain any advantage with that if you choose it over the softer wrist release in a softer grab.

You can think how you want but we are here to discuss. If you can't cope with people disagreeing with your ideas and actually giving you reasons why then a discussion forum is probably not a good place for you.

In the heat of a confrontation you want to analyse the grip strength of your assailant, then select an escape based on how hard he's holding.?

How is that better than using the first escape that comes to mind because you know it works no matter the grip strength?

Fewer techniques to train means more time to get good at them. This is why efficient training is good.

From my childhood memories i just can tell you that is pretty damn painfull and effective and a lot of times it caught me by surprise. Learn to defend it since childhood ? Thats why people are paying for thai and krav classes learning how to defend against knee strikes coz they knew it since their childhood...baaa

All i can say its in SD scenarios that will be pretty much unexpected but wait, you just know that someone will be expecting that also rite ? So again my assumption here its false and incorrect, no knees to the balls... kekeke... all right sir, all the way you want. Im not going further with this you can start your teachings ill be all ears. :headphone:

So because a knee to the groin will catch you by surprise you should assume it will catch everyone by surprise?

Think about what I'm saying. I just said you can't rely on it: that doesn't mean it won't work, just that it should not be your whole plan. You must always have a backup plan incase plan A fails.

Why would you argue with that?

My friends and I learned before I was 11, how to hold a girl and cover my groin because girls would fight us but we wouldn't hit them. I've never met a guy who hadn't been hit in the groin by a girl at least once so why a guy would hassle a woman and not expect it I couldn't say.


Btw a knee strike can be trown from other stances also and even from a neutral one but mostly from zenkutsu...Relative safety place to employ it???? wtf... where in the world launching a knee strike inside others clinch or at close range can be considered a safety position? sry thats a really false assumption.

Rafa, I'm guessing English is not your first language. Relative safety means as safe as you can be in the situation. Not that you can be safe.

You might have worked that out if you were trying to understand what I've written rather than just trying to argue with it.

So it's spelled out, the lateral (sideways) movement takes you off the grasper's line and puts him between you and the second opponent. That gives you a split second longer to manage the situation. Going further with the applicatiion, you control the first attacker to keep him between you and the second assailant before striking.

Yes you can knee from a range of stances, but I was discussing the application potential of the heian yondan opening, not generic technique. It helps if you take phrases in context.

I don't really get why you are arguing about things you clearly have not been trained in or considered.

You can train how you like, but you are the first person I've met who doesn't want to train efficiently. Cluttering your mind with techniques that work sometimes under certain conditions may cause you to select the wrong technique under pressure. But that 's probably just my experience and not valid for you.

But i pass, go on dave. I think you have a lot of more than me to contribute on this thread coz you are the maximum representative of the only and supreme real deal thing. Please show us...

If you can come down from this caricature of my views you might understand them better, but while you ignore the reasoning I give you in favour of this rubbish you won't get it.

There is really nothing controversial about my views. You can disagree as to whether the technique in the video works, (although I can't see why you would since Tez confirmed it doesn't, and in the Abernethy forum there's at least one poster offering a good analysis of it's weaknesses), but I am explaining things I've learned through training with skilled and experienced instructors, some of which I've done or observed through time policing a major city. It's not theory, guess work or supposition.

You seem to want your ideas to be correct more than you want to know what has been shown to work well. As I said in my introduction, I'm no great master and that's why I will always give my reasons and explain the logic behind my views. So feel free to disbelieve anything I post, but at least do me the courtesy of trying to understand it first.
 
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RafaChan

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In MMA fights as well as altercations on 'the street' I've seen guys take hits there and carry on with only a wince, while it may well be painful it's also true that alcohol and adrenaline as well as anger etc can mask the pain long enough for a man to carry on attacking. It's true as well that when attacking men will take a stance that minimises the chance of a blow to his family jewels, we teach that should should never take it for granted that it will floor them.

Im pretty aware one may have balls/jaws of steel or being under effect of high adrenal or other stuff like medicine or alcohol and in that cases neither a strike to the groin or a punch will do that KO/stun trick. Thats why pretty much all of us are training under a system of techs, if something fails you switch for other good stuff.

This what you said also proves that lot of possibilities can happen in practice and about carry on with a wince as a man i can tell you this is not a truth generally speaking. And thats why most MMA/kickboxer fighters use cup protectors while training or in competitions for example, coz they fear taking hits in that spot. No matter how they have being prepared for that since their childhood playground days nor counting on the adrenal leves in their blood stream to mask the pain.

Thats why i take with a grain of salt what some specialists or posters may tells that fast about what they think will be valid/happening or not in SD scenarios/cases just guiding the discussion by their own impressions and personal experiences.

By that i can tell you that alone doesnt invalidate knee attacks to the groin by no means just coz you as a girl have seen some guys handling the pain there, or else you will be restricting the scope of what you can do since from the start without even not knowing if will be really effective for the particular guy attacking you with his balls of glass.

Remember that vid i have posted of a security cam showing the girl doing that ascending schin to the guys groin ? What happened next ? The guy managed to hold on the pain ? No, he didnt. He felt on the ground in his knees and the girl kicked his face straight buying some time for the escape. That proves that we can act depending of whats happening in manny SD scenarios if we train and think about all the possibilities of those scenarios you will be pretty aware of what you can use and when.

If you think and train/practice only by the scope of the hardest situation with loads of pressure ever and the guy being under alcohol or drugs you are omiting a lot of usefull techniques that will gonna work smoother and faster when the altercation its escalating in the use of force progression and the adrenals are not yeat spread all over the blood stream.

I do have also some experience having to restrain violent people with brain damage under psychotic attack with the similar conditions you told. And the worst thing is that some of them were martial artists out of control coz of substances and agressive behaviour. In my earlier posts i talked a lot about shihon nukite being a lot of effective strike to the plexus the way i used it and people that work with me know as the kind of strikes we call as ''amansa doido''. (from google translator will be something like ''tames crazy'')... Have quite some guys who can attest the effective of this from practical experience in the field and how it can buy us some time to handcuff or tie the guy/s. If this is not working one should go for usual grabs and locks.

No you read my post again. I said techniques that don't work . That means you won't get any position advantage from them because they don't do what they are meant to do under pressure. They don't work.

Techniques that give you a position advantage are under the group that Do Work.

Now if you can make that application in the video work, then great, but I will not believe that until I see it.

I have stressed it like ive said. To make it work as showned in the girl vid the opponent grip cant be really that hard as i concluded also earlier. If you tell me that softer grips cant happen in SD scenario i must tell you that you are wrong. And if you tells me that you are practical i tell you that you are being practical just in one direction. No offense dave and nothing personal here. And i can show you also how we can make that technique happen with a hard grip also. Like ive sad age shuto foundation in heian shodan its the answer.

As for training one way, I never said that. There are lots of ways to train and lots of combinations of skills to train in. My one point in this thread is that your training has to be appropriate to your goals, and where your goal is SD, that training needs to take into account the things that really happen, both in terms of common methods of assault and how we ourselves deal with violence.

I've given quite clear reasons why I think the video you posted falls short of this. If you don't want to accept those reasons that is up to you.

My efforts are trying to go in that direction of what you saying above but i just cant see you doing the same of what you saying when you telling me its just happening the way you think. If you doesnt understand and cant apply the hard and soft components of MAs in the SD scenarios when things can be escalating in force progression then your practices are not aligned with your speech.

You can think how you want but we are here to discuss. If you can't cope with people disagreeing with your ideas and actually giving you reasons why then a discussion forum is probably not a good place for you.

In the heat of a confrontation you want to analyse the grip strength of your assailant, then select an escape based on how hard he's holding.?

Forum is a good place to people check in a lot of different opinions and i think im on my way.

Analyse the grip strenght its the easiest thing to do in the situation when a guy is starting to push in one direction and the girl start to resist and push back in the opposite side. BTW in the very moment someone grip my wrist i can have a good idea of the grip strenght being applied.

How is that better than using the first escape that comes to mind because you know it works no matter the grip strength?

Fewer techniques to train means more time to get good at them. This is why efficient training is good.

If we are here to discuss our different views regarding shotokan and SD why you trying so hard to make me look like a stubborn ? You cant accept whats different and fails to see the potential behind a technique. Its not my fault. You told me that it have flaws/limits while i can agree but im not entirely neglecting the entire potential as i can work on that to make it viable.

I must tell ya that other MAs for example have lot of techs thats for the use in more softer grips situation and when things are escalating. I can remeber some from aikido and jujutsu. The hard and soft components you are not efficiently taking in to consideration in your practices. Wanna make it work under pressure also ? Age shuto like ive said will do the trick.

So because a knee to the groin will catch you by surprise you should assume it will catch everyone by surprise?

Have not said that ''everyone'' but in the other hand you just telling me that ''coz since childhood'' the knee to the groin wont be working for everyone. I think we can skip on that as the guy spotted on that security cam footage have not managed to get your level of expertise in SD at the playgrounds.

Think about what I'm saying. I just said you can't rely on it: that doesn't mean it won't work, just that it should not be your whole plan. You must always have a backup plan incase plan A fails.

Yes dave i highly agree and my training consists in have at least three manuevers for each situation. Hard and softer outcomes. When things are escalating, when things are about to happen and when things are already really happening. I dunno but u took the girl vid as my only truth and the only think i pursue and i dont know why.

My friends and I learned before I was 11, how to hold a girl and cover my groin because girls would fight us but we wouldn't hit them. I've never met a guy who hadn't been hit in the groin by a girl at least once so why a guy would hassle a woman and not expect it I couldn't say.

Great, but that alone doesnt explain why theres a load of people learning how to defend effectively against knee to the groins in manny MAs classes. We do have also the more internal stances that we learn like hangetsu, sanchin and all of that being learnt effectively within a MA system and not in the play grounds.

You can train how you like, but you are the first person I've met who doesn't want to train efficiently. Cluttering your mind with techniques that work sometimes under certain conditions may cause you to select the wrong technique under pressure. But that 's probably just my experience and not valid for you.

You here are being completely ignorant about my backgrounds and my training as a whole. Thats consistently showing you just jump on this thread without have read all the pages and without read the things that ive posted earlier. If you clutter your mind or whatever if you train a lot of techs its your fault not mine.

There is really nothing controversial about my views. You can disagree as to whether the technique in the video works, (although I can't see why you would since Tez confirmed it doesn't, and in the Abernethy forum there's at least one poster offering a good analysis of it's weaknesses), but I am explaining things I've learned through training with skilled and experienced instructors, some of which I've done or observed through time policing a major city. It's not theory, guess work or supposition.

You seem to want your ideas to be correct more than you want to know what has been shown to work well. As I said in my introduction, I'm no great master and that's why I will always give my reasons and explain the logic behind my views. So feel free to disbelieve anything I post, but at least do me the courtesy of trying to understand it first.

Nope. I think you are the guy here trying to make a point getting that vid and posting it in another forum just out of its context as we discussing here and judging all of me by your personal way. I think thats not fair coz at least every time i see a movement and technique i stressed it for myself. And if you havent noted it was that have pointed the weaknesses/limit of the tech, the harder grip issue. And btw i was not there seeing her but i could made a right guess coz i have stressed it.

And again, i have worked it in a way its usefull against hard grips also. Maybe i have manage that coz i gave it a chance before just trying to deny it without apply it first. And you playing the role of the practical guy here now i can see clearly the issue...
 
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DaveB

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My efforts are trying to go in that direction of what you saying above but i just cant see you doing the same of what you saying when you telling me its just happening the way you think. If you doesnt understand and cant apply the hard and soft components of MAs in the SD scenarios when things can be escalating in force progression then your practices are not aligned with your speech.

Thats not what is meant by hard and soft technique.

You need to read my posts over again as I was quite clear about SD training to enable a sufficient variety and adaptability.

Analyse the grip strenght its the easiest thing to do in the situation when a guy is starting to push in one direction and the girl start to resist and push back in the opposite side. BTW in the very moment someone grip my wrist i can have a good idea of the grip strenght being applied.

Yes you can, but what if you are distracted by what else is going on? What about the guy who holds you gently until you try to move? What about the assailant who feels you pull to test the grip and goes straight into pounding your face, not giving you the second chance to move to a more effective technique? What about the second assailant that you didn't know was there?

Adding extra steps that don't directly improve your position is a risk because every heartbeat is potentially an action against you.

You keep repeating that I am limiting myself to only one way, but I seem to take a lot into account in my limited viewpoint.


If we are here to discuss our different views regarding shotokan and SD why you trying so hard to make me look like a stubborn ? You cant accept whats different and fails to see the potential behind a technique. Its not my fault. You told me that it have flaws/limits while i can agree but im not entirely neglecting the entire potential as i can work on that to make it viable.

I'm not trying to make you look like anything. Your argument about the video has been that it works fine, then that it works for a soft grip, now that you can build on it to make it effective. All I did was explain why I disagree with the first two arguments.

I must tell ya that other MAs for example have lot of techs thats for the use in more softer grips situation and when things are escalating. I can remeber some from aikido and jujutsu. The hard and soft components you are not efficiently taking in to consideration in your practices. Wanna make it work under pressure also ? Age shuto like ive said will do the trick.

As I said, that's not what hard/soft refers to in MA.

Many traditional MA are not considered fit for purpose by self defense experts precisely because they include too many techniques and ineffective techniques and inappropriate training methods for self defense.


Yes dave i highly agree and my training consists in have at least three manuevers for each situation. Hard and softer outcomes. When things are escalating, when things are about to happen and when things are already really happening. I dunno but u took the girl vid as my only truth and the only think i pursue and i dont know why.

I've made no assumption about you based on the video, I've disagreed with you about it. My one comment about your training is based in you arguing against modern SD principles. If you are aware of them, arguing against them is not a good way to show it.

Great, but that alone doesnt explain why theres a load of people learning how to defend effectively against knee to the groins in manny MAs classes. We do have also the more internal stances that we learn like hangetsu, sanchin and all of that being learnt effectively within a MA system and not in the play grounds.

You shouldn't need karate or krav to teach you to turn your knee in to cover your groin.

You here are being completely ignorant about my backgrounds and my training as a whole. Thats consistently showing you just jump on this thread without have read all the pages and without read the things that ive posted earlier. If you clutter your mind or whatever if you train a lot of techs its your fault not mine.
Thats nice, but you forgot to answer the question you quoted. You also seem to have not understood me.

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell people to explore every half effective technique for the sake of covering every possible situation and every possible skill variation and also claim efficient training. You are either one or the other.

Nope. I think you are the guy here trying to make a point getting that vid and posting it in another forum just out of its context as we discussing here and judging all of me by your personal way. I think thats not fair coz at least every time i see a movement and technique i stressed it for myself. And if you havent noted it was that have pointed the weaknesses/limit of the tech, the harder grip issue.

The context was, This video shows bad SD. That was what I said about it. By posting without that context I let the posters in that forum give opinions untainted by my own.

BTW, you keep on about hard grips and soft grips, but that wasn't even my biggest problem with the technique.

I had issue with the fact that the technique relied on the attacker doing one exact technique and that it didn't account for other possibilities.

Again you complain that I see things one way, but my one way is covering many different elements that you seem to want to ignore in the hope that you encounter the exact circumstances needed by the technique.

Lastly, the things I've written are not my way, I didn't make them up. The methods and approaches to SD are things I've learned from skilled SD experts. From police and military trainers, as well as various martial arts instructors. That is why I knew my views would be supported in the Practical Karate forum. The principles of SD are pretty universal. There are details that people debate, but things like cutting out inefficient techniques and training have been settled.
 
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Tez3

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By that i can tell you that alone doesnt invalidate knee attacks to the groin by no means just coz you as a girl have seen some guys handling the pain there, or else you will be restricting the scope of what you can do since from the start without even not knowing if will be really effective for the particular guy attacking you with his balls of glass.

I don't think you understood properly what I was saying. I wasn't saying that groin strikes are ineffective, not painful or shouldn't be done, I was saying that one shouldn't rely on them working and should always have something else ready.
 

RafaChan

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Yes you can, but what if you are distracted by what else is going on? What about the guy who holds you gently until you try to move? What about the assailant who feels you pull to test the grip and goes straight into pounding your face, not giving you the second chance to move to a more effective technique? What about the second assailant that you didn't know was there?

Adding extra steps that don't directly improve your position is a risk because every heartbeat is potentially an action against you.

You keep repeating that I am limiting myself to only one way, but I seem to take a lot into account in my limited viewpoint.

You have trown a lot of ''ifs'' wich i always do also and find valid to analyse how far a technique can be strategically effective so we can hit commonground in good practice. As ive said before, each tech has its limits and reachs depending of the scenario outcomes. But here we have to agree that no matter how we try to be cautious or practical theres a lot of stuff out of our control in those scenarios. Regarding all those possibilities, the best thing we can do its training/practicing with all those ''ifs'' in mind.

For example, if the second guy happens to come by surprise what we will have to do next? How we can best react and try to still keep our backs covered? Is there any escape route nearby to avoid the agression? Have we being properly aware of the surroudings? Is there anything next to me that could be used as a weapon to aid me?

My opinion on that is if the second guy happens to come, pretty much we will need to act with more offensive manuevers always with evasion in mind (if we got the chance). Thats why i have suggested the knee strike to the groin for the first guy coz its a high rate technique for the most cases. Pretty much all the SD systems i had some experience with they point areas like the groin or throat for example as very sensible to these kind of attacks.

But consistently saying that attacking the groin can be not productive some times coz the guy can handle or the guy will be somewhat expecting it coz he was a naughy boy, while i can agree with that all, those things alone doesnt make attack to the groin ineffective. I pointed as an example only and havent said i rely entirely on technique X and Y and that i dont have a plan B,C,D...

Thats my opinion. You are free to disagree or make it your way based on your own practices and experiences.

I'm not trying to make you look like anything. Your argument about the video has been that it works fine, then that it works for a soft grip, now that you can build on it to make it effective. All I did was explain why I disagree with the first two arguments.

Yes, to make it work strictly like the video thats the condition as i pointed earlier. But in the other hand i have stressed it and discovered how i could manage that to work under pressure. If that will be ideal for you or not regarding X and Y conditions thats another matter in wich each technique can be put to test. If you revisit that post of mine i was saying how i was apllying age shuto from heian shodan as a wrist release also, i have said about unsu also, its the same principle for the hardest of grips. I have found this video to illustrate better what im trying to tell you and how we can make it effective. Check on 01:58.


Well... Thats the initial age shuto movement as performed in the kata as a wrist release, ill add a little wrist twist outside also not only to the inside of the grab. That way it can evolves to a standed arm lock as i experienced in my practice of that bunkai. Near future ill have more time to record some of that stuff on vid of my own and ill show the way i perform with an opponent resisting. Will be light years better instead of me here typing 1000 words and struggling with my bad engrish sorry for that...

You shouldn't need karate or krav to teach you to turn your knee in to cover your groin.

That alone will make an interest thread to check others opinions about that. But still, im pretty sure that theres a difference in know how to defend the groin instinctively and how to defend efficiently. Btw i will keep saying most people wont be expecting an attack there. Specially when they are concentrated on the harass/assault and looking eye on eye with you. Besides its the kind of strike that can be launched by surprise from the body blind spot (below the waist) when at close range.

Thats nice, but you forgot to answer the question you quoted. You also seem to have not understood me.

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell people to explore every half effective technique for the sake of covering every possible situation and every possible skill variation and also claim efficient training. You are either one or the other.

And thats why, like Ian said in his forum, that people judging the effectiveness of a specific technique he is doing sole by his 2 minute videos are often missing important parts of a whole bigger training practice.

The context was, This video shows bad SD. That was what I said about it. By posting without that context I let the posters in that forum give opinions untainted by my own.

I dont know the people that made the vid and envisioned that technique. My goal its not in promoting them either. I have watched some of their vids and like everything in life i get for me only the things that i can apply and see some potential. That way i can happen to make it work my way. Other poster also do admited the potential of that specific tech instead of just telling its bad or useless without even stress it or pointed that it need some more work to happen.

But yes. For the exact same way its happening on the vid and the way the opponent its compliant to make it happen ill agree with you in the matter of this debate will be pretty ineffective.

I had issue with the fact that the technique relied on the attacker doing one exact technique and that it didn't account for other possibilities.

Looking that way all the techniques are subject for other possibilities and by a 2 min video with a compliant opponent most of them will be useless like you said.

Again you complain that I see things one way, but my one way is covering many different elements that you seem to want to ignore in the hope that you encounter the exact circumstances needed by the technique.

Dave, lets agree here in one thing, every technique pretty much needs the right circumstances to happen. Even to trow a single jab you will have to be in range for that to make it happen, so i dont know/understand why you wanna invalidate techniques by that so fast with this argument.

Lastly, the things I've written are not my way, I didn't make them up. The methods and approaches to SD are things I've learned from skilled SD experts. From police and military trainers, as well as various martial arts instructors. That is why I knew my views would be supported in the Practical Karate forum. The principles of SD are pretty universal. There are details that people debate, but things like cutting out inefficient techniques and training have been settled.

Sorry but saying all of that to me and to others reading trying to validate your opinions i think its not the best way to make it work. And by that i can tell you that not all the skilled SD experts are in agreement with all they preach/do. Theres a lot of discussion and debate the same way we are doing here now. Theres not that thing of absolute truth coz i learnt with military and police trainers. Im from the military 5 years now in my state and received more than one kind of SD courses and the only thing i can tell you that is depending on the circles, instructors, agencies, still theres some disagreement in the discussion between the best techs to apply depending of the situation.

I agree that some SD principles are universal (the vital areas i.e. groin) but some of the principles sometimes are determined by culture, social behaviour and conditions of a particular country or place. As ive said regarding the best technique to apply could be even worst.

In SD, consensus between each tech will be the best for X, Y situation its not guaranted the way you talk. Same way that knee to the groin its not guaranted either.
 
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RafaChan

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I don't think you understood properly what I was saying. I wasn't saying that groin strikes are ineffective, not painful or shouldn't be done, I was saying that one shouldn't rely on them working and should always have something else ready.

And i dont know if you understood the context in wich i was presenting the knee strike to the groin but lemme remind you. I was presenting it like a plan B in case of a second attacker comming like dave ''multi-questioned'' me. And by that alone the ''something else ready'' statement of yours here its totally unnecessary in my view as a reply to me coz it was already there since i replied him.

BTW strikes to the groin are considered to be consensus by pretty much all SD circles and authorities as the strike amongst having a high rate effectivenes.

Since i have joined this forum i have being questioned and doubted a lot...nukite strikes, groin strikes, solar plexus strikes...i think its time to take a break and getting back by here when ive got all the material video documented proof for the YT mania video generation...not saying its your case. Besides that i wanna give space to other people talk.

My best regards.
 

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