Shotokan for self defence.

ShotoNoob

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...So you have made an attempt of strike interception and went forward closing in range with your opponent...In case of miss it and he being a dedicated striker have you being familiar to defend effectivelly hooks, elbows, knees and uppercut strikes as response to your irimi aproach?

And in the case of a bad outcome with a grappler what shotokan will offer you to be able to broke up of his holds in your body, cloths, hands, arms...What shotokan katas maybe are telling you to do? Would they have gave you enough knowledge to even defend competently the attempt of tackle for you to defend agains that takedown? Whats that unsu (cloud hands) kata from the gorgeous female serbian team are telling us to do with their ''hidden'' sweeping hands techniques for you to be able to defend against those arms and wrists locks?

Lets all the shotokan true searchers fill in those gaps...
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Now we are finally getting down to cases: Please remember I'm a more basic technique guy, and not so clever as K-Man's dojo or Pretty serbian girls kata team...:shy:
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I will start on the MMA side by using Machida / rockhold:
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Machida's striking was hailed as taking the round @ the outset. Machida is too fast & on target (in the head -good) for Rockhold. See early part of video; this is verified. So what's wrong?
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Machida's strikes in a full contact setting have no effect/ no visible power. Yet how much does Machida spar??? TONS & TONS with TEZ-like MMA partners... So when Machida, like Mazzotta mets Garbrant in a bar & Garbrandt makes it clear he's gonna take your head off, what is the first mistake? To tap the opponent with punches, egg-him on, (see Garbrandt, Mazzotta match) and then expect to walk away unharmed...
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SO SHOTOKAN KUMITE RULE NO. 1: So the first kumite principle for SD is to make strikes count. How does traditional Shotokan do that?--why doing what little debbie was training of course.... Or by K-man, the makiwara board, etc....
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SHOTOKAN KUMITE RULE NO. 2: OK, RAFA asks your strike against tough striker or skilled grappler doesn't work. FIRST ALTERNATIVE ANSWER: REVISIT SHOTOKAN KUMITE RULE NO.1. That's what Shotokan does, make strikes count. If you strikes are having a "Machida / rockhold" effect, then I suggest you go back and start over from day 1 and train Shotokan to traditional standards... here ED parker demostrates with short explain that TEZ should understand...
Tez, Guys, little Debbie is all grown up here....:playful:
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BTW: For all the Shotokan guys, Ed Parker does use some body momentum to break the boards....
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EDIT: other Machida / Rockhold lesson here, Shotokan doesn't want to end up like Machida, pretty helpless to Rockhold on ground....KMAN--HELP!!! Machida needs a new cornerman (I told you I don't depend on cornermen--there's why.).
 
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ShotoNoob

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Knew I could count on you to add value.... so predictable.... even telegraphed .... o_O
Especially when they aren't Ippon Kumite because it's a Korean martial art...............
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You also missed I spelled Sensei Hotten as "Horton." Get with it....
 

ShotoNoob

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...

And in the case of a bad outcome with a grappler what shotokan will offer you to be able to broke up of his holds in your body, cloths, hands, arms...What shotokan katas maybe are telling you to do? Would they have gave you enough knowledge to even defend competently the attempt of tackle for you to defend agains that takedown? Whats that unsu (cloud hands) kata from the gorgeous female serbian team are telling us to do with their ''hidden'' sweeping hands techniques for you to be able to defend against those arms and wrists locks?

Lets all the shotokan true searchers fill in those gaps...
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RAFA, taking piece by piece... you ask the world here, TEZ help!
Machida / rockhold, Machida knocked to ground Round 1 by Rockhold counter right when MACHIDA PATENTED STRAIGHT LEFT WHIFFS.... this was shown on YT but can't find now on highlights... Here's similar exchange where Rua KO counters Machida PATENTED STRAIGHT LEFT.
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Muay Thai > Shotokan Karate right? Is Kanazawa throwing his body momentum into the opponent like Machida and utilizing or relying on a single technique? Or what's an ever better observation from Kanawaza demo? How bout the korean ippon kumite version?
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Hint: the korean master demo does specifically something I rarely see Machida (Mazzotta the "TKD" practitoner also) even attempt. OH WELL, now we know why karate fails in MMA.... Matt Thornton is smiling here.... karate debunked.... massive fail....
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EDIT: Actually Shogun Rua's Muay Thai irimi-version was excellent here...
 
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ShotoNoob

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:artist:Rafa-Man, I'm in your hands....
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EDIT: Best of luck with that....
 
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Tez3

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Machida's strikes in a full contact setting have no effect/ no visible power. Yet how much does Machida spar??? TONS & TONS with TEZ-like MMA partners...

I very much doubt they are 'Tez like' partners, you have no idea how I spar, I don't even think you know who Machida spars with, you're waffling and rambling about nothing. I think you just like seeing your words written up, they don't even have to be in coherent sentences. You are also trying to bait people, that's not in the rules here.

So, we aren't talking about self defence anymore but discussing various MMA fights, perhaps this should be split off and stuck in the MMA section.
 

DaveB

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It would have been nice to have a sincere and respectful discussion about our differing views on Shotokan, but this is just not feasible.

ShotoNoob, I'm glad you enjoy your way of training and I hope it yields results.

RafaChan, I don't agree with all you wrote, but I think that in your case it's more a difference in emphasis rather than lunacy. It's a shame there was not more space to talk.
 

RafaChan

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Guys plz... Lets get along with this...

EDIT: Let me repeat that K-man is practicing a more sophisticated style of karate than Shotokan.... TMU....

I do believe... Have heard that before of someone somewhere...

No the ippon kumite applies anywhere. It's a 'highish' risk when you are relying on reactions, or less on risky instincts... as K-Man does...

I understand your point but yup... still its a highrisk... I myself have learned to just dont underestimate any one besides mental clarity to track intentions its a heck of hard skill to tame while in stress... just agree that people will be in danger...I prefer most times observe, step back and hit - while they miss me and get frustraded.

In your vid #1 its all about wait the attack and not enter in to the attack so in this way the vid its contradicting you. He just wait, stepback and hitback keeping the distance pretty much the way i do when i can keep relaxed.

Correction: What you are saying applies to the recreational or much of the conventional Shotokan kumite. The better Shotokan kumite sport or traditioanl, are prepared for follow on techniques / tactics... Good Shotokan follow on fighting is on YT... That is made EXPLICIT in Ippon Kumite & kata////

Agreed. Kata and bunkai will give the answers and the practitioner must fill in the gaps. Ill give a more in depth own lecture of shotokan for self defense with kata bunkai below the way i do. I have seen your vids and the way you personally contributed to those answers.

The answers i have made were intentional and was to serve a purpose in lead us a little away of training paradigms (the emphasis - right dave?) and next to the more practical aspects of the art and SD validity.

I consider that we have already pretty much dissecated a lot in the ''physical embodiment of the mental outlook'' realm and thats done for me IMO... Althought training paradigms issue was highlighted since the first OP post on this very thread and was to taken in to consideration in some part...

Don't sleep walk through the material and then assume 'cause you bullied some one who looks like me that you know karate...:cold:

kekeke, thats not me...

Of course. Taikyoku kata#1: low block for low defense. It's so simple a concept it's taken as stupid 'cause a low block doesn't protect like the boxer hands up guard. We are learning to place the mentally disciplined strength of the entire body in a precise & tactically strong way to defend against a low [middle?] attack, yet simultaneously position & chamber for an immediate follow on move...

Even when starting from the start shotokan its very SD practical yet most can see only as fitness or recreational - what the white belt (mine its heian shodan not taikyoku) kata is trying to say since day 1 yet some people from the higher dan grades still doesnt comprehend nor put in practice at all ?

Its really saying that the kata aplication for that gedan barai left block its to deplet an enemy strike coming from your left side? Really that you will be stopped there in musubi dachi looking forward while hes coming from your side and suddenly turns left to block his kick or stab with a gedan barai ? Whats the chances ?

I could find some vids that represents better what i do and think of that... while gedan barai its a block very used and usefull block in kumite for kick defenses to the waist, belly against some mawashi - mae geri kicks some people its applying also as a wrist grab release technique with the add bonus of a trow just like this:


Now zenkutsu will also plays a big role to create that trow momentum when the body turn and your front foot its trapping the opponent balance. Important things to note:

This can be performed even if the opponent still holding your two wrists when you raise your left arm around your head... the stronger is he holding the better to mess with his balance...

Thats a small part of the answer if you end up with your wrists grabbed: you raise your stance a little and transition to a strong zenkutsu to any degree to the side...

Follow on...

The more ''traditionalistic'' heian shodan bunkai in my view will be the wrist release presented only at the time of the tetsui uchi wich IMO its a little gem of a strike from unexpected angle technique that can also serve as a wrist release also:


Well, they have not showned the gedan barai power hand swept potential or even the nage waza take downs aplications of age shuto - age uke techniques wich i found of fundamental importance of a good practice of the bunkai of this kata.

Those guys have worked had for shotokan and SD aplication i have found their video pretty decent and that was the only video that i have found that showned ''some'' of the potential of the age shuto - age uke techniques. If some one have found some plz share...

Check in 02:55:


I still doesnt have any videos of my own aplications - bad rafa - will work on that at some point perhaps as the material i look forward that can match what im doing its really scarce...

I couldnt find for example the usage of gedan barai - age shuto to block and trap a leg of the opponent when he kicks in and then trow him to the ground following by age uke.
Kata move 6, 7 and 8...

Nor the potential of age shuto - age uke against clinch aplication follow by a trow...

Heian Shodan... 21 moves - 6 basic techniques - really a lot of potential more that you could even imagine...

Not the answer for all the questions ofc but its a pretty decent start out of the blue.

Im open to hear from you guys if you all think thats not already too late for this thread.

Peace !
 

RafaChan

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Shoto... Machida doesnt represent any shotokan failure by no means. And even more on the matter of this shotokan and SD debate...

Hes the only responsible for his failures not the style. And about his recent failures,

Ill risk that his over evasive hit and run tactic its not being effective anymore coz it makes him being more focused on connects evasion to the sides or back than be focused to connects in more attacks while he goes forward or back wards. I saw that two times with romero... he could have landed more hits but his evasiveness was put him already out of range for that...

Im not saying its a bad tactic at all but i would say its not much more effective as the time passes by and pretty much every one its already aware and studying it on the mainstream and learning how to deal with that. Pretty much like shogun did and studied. He practiced a lot with another karateka champion that was playing the role of machida while trying to emulate his tactic.
 

ShotoNoob

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Shoto... Machida doesnt represent any shotokan failure by no means. And even more on the matter of this shotokan and SD debate...
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Too much sport fighting in Machida's karate. Karate is not a sport; it's a mental discipline....

Hes the only responsible for his failures not the style.
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NO, there is weakness in the CONVENTIONAL Shotokan point-fighting style of kumite. Machida is a product of that convention...
And about his recent failures,

Ill risk that his over evasive hit and run tactic its not being effective anymore coz it makes him being more focused on connects evasion to the sides or back than be focused to connects in more attacks while he goes forward or back wards. I saw that two times with romero... he could have landed more hits but his evasiveness was put him already out of range for that...
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No sure I follow your explanation completely. Yet I think you looked @ it and go the gist.... Machida relies too much on elementary sport fighting technique, opponents applying same.
Im not saying its a bad tactic at all but i would say its not much more effective as the time passes by and pretty much every one its already aware and studying it on the mainstream and learning how to deal with that. Pretty much like shogun did and studied. He practiced a lot with another karateka champion that was playing the role of machida while trying to emulate his tactic.
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Exactly. Initially, his style was effective against the really poor tactics of the rank & file MMA competition.
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Subsequently, all his later UFC competitors have the luxury of watching him on tape for hours.... Because Machida relies on a few simple gambits for the most part and repeats those over & over like clockwork, he became fixed in strategy as well as predictable. Shogun's training for UFC 113 was expert in it's approach....
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Moreover, Machida should train like "LITTLE DEBBIE" for another weakness he has consistently failed to address.... TEZ3 still has Machida on focus mitts... massive fail against Romero...
 

ShotoNoob

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Guys plz... Lets get along with this...
I do believe... Have heard that before of someone somewhere...
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That's what my training & study have led me to understand...
I understand your point but yup... still its a highrisk... I myself have learned to just dont underestimate any one besides mental clarity to track intentions its a heck of hard skill to tame while in stress... just agree that people will be in danger...I prefer most times observe, step back and hit - while they miss me and get frustraded.
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That's because you're ghost-writing for K-Man. You quote the Machida / Romero match, and so Machida // NOT // engaging with karate effectiveness was actually the highest risk approach Machida could have taken against Romero....And yes, there is a lot to say for K-Man's approach. Perhaps the mentally easier approach is to wait and counter, so that is why the lower level of mental intensity is emphasized in the Shotokan black=belt curriculum... The mental dimension training provides the calmness to act in stressful situations. How many can dedicate this training, it's a minority. You & K-Man have left out some depth on focusing on the issue this way....
In your vid #1 its all about wait the attack and not enter in to the attack so in this way the vid its contradicting you. He just wait, stepback and hitback keeping the distance pretty much the way i do when i can keep relaxed.
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Yes, what you say is largely the physical form.... My "extremist" view on your response would be what?
Agreed. Kata and bunkai will give the answers and the practitioner must fill in the gaps. Ill give a more in depth own lecture of shotokan for self defense with kata bunkai below the way i do. I have seen your vids and the way you personally contributed to those answers.
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Yes, there are lots of blanks to be filled in. On a technique basis, you can just look at Iain A.'s work and go from there... I just looked @ the black-belt curriculum and the fighting application exercise.... as I've stated over & over....
The answers i have made were intentional and was to serve a purpose in lead us a little away of training paradigms (the emphasis - right dave?) and next to the more practical aspects of the art and SD validity.
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K-Man's approach mentally of instinctual training is workable for many, and a huge step up over sport fighting....
I consider that we have already pretty much dissecated a lot in the ''physical embodiment of the mental outlook'' realm and thats done for me IMO... Althought training paradigms issue was highlighted since the first OP post on this very thread and was to taken in to consideration in some part...
On the contrary, it's the key issue. I wonder how many will actually embrace K-Man's instinctively=based bunkai for self-defense.
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Unfortunately, there's a lot of sleepwalking, monkey-see-monkey-do in karate practice out there.... good luck with that....
Even when starting from the start shotokan its very SD practical yet most can see only as fitness or recreational - what the white belt (mine its heian shodan not taikyoku) kata is trying to say since day 1 yet some people from the higher dan grades still doesnt comprehend nor put in practice at all ?
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Well Machida violated the Taikyoku kata in the Romero fight; the major failing BEING lack of mental discipline which the Taikyoku kata are meant to ingrain.... There are physical form & tactical lessons Machida violated Taikyoku kata as well. particularly glaring in the Rockhold fight (loss).... But since I religiously practiced the Taikyoku kata as advocated by Gichin F., I guess I an extreme.
Its really saying that the kata aplication for that gedan barai left block its to deplet an enemy strike coming from your left side? Really that you will be stopped there in musubi dachi looking forward while hes coming from your side and suddenly turns left to block his kick or stab with a gedan barai ? Whats the chances ?
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That is not the main purpose of that block. You & K-Man are stuck in relying on technology of technique, instead of stating it to extreme, the technology of spirit... I've already answered that issue elsewhere, on the physical form of the low block. Technical people like K-Man get hung up on the low block and it's faults, I absorbed the traditional karate principles which that low block keystones into. That's it... BTW, wrote about those in my earliest postings..
I could find some vids that represents better what i do and think of that... while gedan barai its a block very used and usefull block in kumite for kick defenses to the waist, belly against some mawashi - mae geri kicks some people its applying also as a wrist grab release technique with the add bonus of a trow just like this:
All your & K-Man's technical stuff is good.
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Of course, use some imagination on how to apply kihon Shotokan, as opposed to putting up the hands-up guard and hope the opponent doesn't punch thorough opening(s).
Question Begged:
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How does a physically weak female compared to the male uke develop the strength to throw that guy to the floor with that move? There at least better be some K_MAN KIME behind it.... this is why I stressed the "LITTLE DEBBIE BOARD BREAKING KIHON SHOTOKAN TRAINING. I'm not going to try some grappling bunkai on Romero, I'm going to smash his nose back into his skull and with his eye's tearing & vision blurring and pain distracting him, I have a chance to repeatedly pound him into disjunction....Quickly & repeatedly....Taikyoku kata.... Funny, Little Debbie (& her dad get it).:punch::punch::punch:
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In Principle, I love the bunkai vid you posted. It represents what traditional karate, traditional Shotokan is all about....
 
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ShotoNoob

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Actually, IMO, the DrobyshevskyK Karate bunkai illustration has K-Man's Okinawan-jutsu quality (on a number of fronts), hence it should receive the K-man stamp of approval...
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EDIT: got to take a break. On the above, good luck with that. I'm sure the demonstration will appeal to many students interest....:cool:
 

ShotoNoob

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....have worked had for shotokan and SD aplication i have found their video pretty decent and that was the only video that i have found that showned ''some'' of the potential of the age shuto - age uke techniques. If some one have found some plz share...

Check in 02:55:


I still doesnt have any videos of my own aplications - bad rafa - will work on that at some point perhaps as the material i look forward that can match what im doing its really scarce...

I couldnt find for example the usage of gedan barai - age shuto to block and trap a leg of the opponent when he kicks in and then trow him to the ground following by age uke.
Kata move 6, 7 and 8...

Nor the potential of age shuto - age uke against clinch aplication follow by a trow...

Heian Shodan... 21 moves - 6 basic techniques - really a lot of potential more that you could even imagine...

Not the answer for all the questions ofc but its a pretty decent start out of the blue.

Im open to hear from you guys if you all think thats not already too late for this thread.

Peace !
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Not at all. Except for the hard spar-rers, pounding each other >>> will find this too meek (eek!) I'll try to take a close look at all three and reply in greater detail. First cut on Shotokan Bunkai Kata Vid #3...quoted above....
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FIRST NEGATIVE CRITICISM: On the overhead hammer-strike bunkai to the opponent's head, in the 1st leg of heian godan, I think this as presented is a bit impractical & rigid. Shotokan KARATE phys-ed form...
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SECOND NEGATIVE CRITICISM: Now rafa, here's where your own vid violates the criticism you made of my practice of Ippon Kumite moving in... ya know "high risk." The master instructor in the above vid doesn't move back either with the low block. When the opponent advances, the master remains stationary. He executes the low block against the front kick attack. This form of defense, as has been pointed out a million times all over everywhere, leaves the master instructor standing in place with his face completely exposed. Boxing coaches poop all over this kihon form. So, very high, extra risk by K-Man standards on 2 fronts very plain....
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I don't have a big problem with such kihon training because the real purpose is not the SD application K-Man teaches or advocates. The exercise is teaching foundational Shotokan strengths..... It's teaching the mental discipline to stand and face Romero as he pressures..... of course that is only the surface of the mental discipline actually sought to be developed....by such Shotokan training..... Shotokan makes plain with the strong, rigid stance and muscular technique that you stand and fight back with the full strength of the entire body in an accurate and & efficient manner. How often do you see this in a real fight. You don't because the competitors don't have the mental discipline to do it...
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POSITIVE #1: As K-man says, the Heian Shodan kata basically covers the Taikyoku kata #1 & #2. Furthermore, we are introduced to the complexity of bunkai right off the bat. As well as the knife hand block (strike). So here we have a more sophisticated approach than pure kihon of simple repetition....
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POSITIVE #2: The whole foundational purpose of the kata is whole body power, which then is applied in a tactically efficient way. Once that whole body power is developed, then we can transition same into kihon or alternative technique & tactics as represented in the bunkai... Bunkai doesn't cover nearly all of what is being conveyed....integrated into whole body power as noted....
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RAFA, I thought Shotokan striking couldn't have any answer on that unstoppable closing-the-distance by the mystical Gracies.... Your references above to applications point to refutation of the Gracie grappling mystique.... I LIST THAT AS POSITIVE #3.....
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And that's my "extreme" view to DAvid B., whoever that is; and of course "Username redacted," my favorite poster....
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good luck with all that extremism....:muted:
 
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Tez3

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TEZ3 still has Machida on focus mitts... massive fail against Romero...


You do know that no one has any idea what you are talking about don't you least of all me. I've no idea why you wrote this, it's meaningless. BTW you can't 'violate' a kata you know, the idea is just funny.

Oh and it's Tez.
 

Tez3

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Is there an ignore feature on this forum?

Yes, thankfully. click onto the username, a little window pops up and along the top line there is a line of which the last word is 'ignore' click on and it's done.
 

DaveB

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Is there an ignore feature on this forum?
Found it, problem solved.

RafaChan, the video you posted of the girl applying a wrist release was the perfect example of why style/art is so much less important than understanding the environment you are training for.

That application simply will not work in real life.

Forget that the girl hasn't got the leverage to force a resistant assailant over, or that if she could pull a larger opponent off balance with hikite he would need to grab her for his own stability and end up grappling.
Forget that once the wrist is released there's nothing stopping the attacker from just hitting the girl; all that aside, no one who means to hurt you holds both your wrists.

If someone holds both wrists and wants to do you harm either they have A SECOND ATTACKER WITH THEM who will do the harming, or the young girl is already on her back/front on the floor and can no longer prevent the bad things about to happen.

Hence, the application is less than useless because even if it had been mechanically viable, it fails to account for anything approaching the environment it was intended for.

The skill of self defense pales in importance to the understanding of why and how assaults occur.
 

Buka

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Critiquing Lyoto Machida as a fighter and Martial Artist. When your done, please, tell Mayweather how to box.
 

RafaChan

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RafaChan, the video you posted of the girl applying a wrist release was the perfect example of why style/art is so much less important than understanding the environment you are training for.

Thats why some struggle hard in the understanding of how their art can be applicable with maximum effect in real cases in a lot of enviroments within its systems and how it can deal with all the variables... Ua...boring...

Btw thats the case of this thread isnt?

That application simply will not work in real life.

Judging by your own experiences and particular enviroment here you ended with that general conclusion.

Forget that the girl hasn't got the leverage to force a resistant assailant over, or that if she could pull a larger opponent off balance with hikite he would need to grab her for his own stability and end up grappling.
Forget that once the wrist is released there's nothing stopping the attacker from just hitting the girl; all that aside, no one who means to hurt you holds both your wrists.

I do have stressed this move against a much stronger and bigger opponent assumin i was the weaker girl.

If you have made this drill by yourself instead of came here so diligently pointing the flaws of what you have saw just on the vid you will end up realizing all the move is real. Besides that i agree only with that if the guy really grabs hard it will very hard to release the hand as showned in the vid.

But anyways he will fall and lost balance when you transition to zenkutsu coz hes not expecting that. I havent told the guy i was about to do this just told its a karate drill and that he have to grab hard both of my wrists.

Now hes on the ground prone to get his head kicked while you still up there. Maybe you need a video footage of that also?


The skill of self defense pales in importance to the understanding of why and how assaults occur

SD its not only about de-escalation and awareness but either with escalation and right skill aplication.

Have been herr in any street carnival? Girls walking tru the mobs often get their wrists grabbed for the robbed kiss trial... Pull and push game comence... Hit directly the testicles with the knee on that occasions wont be the better idea coz the guy can hit back if he react fast. But ashi barai or gedan barai will makes him think twice now...
 

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Gedan Barai wrist release and take down. Iain Abernethy

If you won't listen to me, maybe you will listen to a group of self defense application specialist. Note I've not waited for responses to the thread that support me because I know that they will.

You really can't see what is wrong with a technique that relies on the attacker re-grabbing the other wrist after she releases her hand when nothing compels him to do so?

This is the definition of poor unrealistic application. Nothing about your carnival example contradicts anything I've written. I don't need to try it because I've not just theorised about realistic applications, I've trained and used them, both through karate and other arts. Hence I've been able to break down exactly what is wrong with the technique.

If you think it can work then answer the specific criticisms. How will this help if there is a second opponent? What is stopping the assailant from grabbing or hitting the girl's head once his hand is released?

I did not say anything about awareness and de-escalation. I said to create and use martial techniques for self defense, you have to understand the realities of self defense. Basic things like if you are not controlling an attacker you can't guarantee what his next move will be.

It's even permissable to assume a limited range of follow up attacks based on common patterns of violence but your next technique has to be able to counter all of that range of responseses. And grabbing an already grabbed wrist is not a common or reasonable follow on attack because it puts the assailant in a worse position. It's the kind of situation you don't need to train for because it's so stupid your general training should be enough.

As a junior Karateka's attempt at developing application this is a good first try. As a showcase of the principles in Taikyoku/hiean shodan, it's a misunderstanding. As a practical technique for self defense this is a total failure.
 

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