Deleted member 48484
Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?
if yes, what did the scenario look like ?
if yes, what did the scenario look like ?
The “High School Hallway scenario” where the combatants know each other, and there is a crowd of bystanders to witness it and break it up .... is “unfortunately” what many train for... what many think a self defense scenario is. They just envision scenario in different locations, parking lot, mall etc...
They Train an MA to save face...
That's unfortunate? Because for a scenario beyond that, you need to be going the range regularly.
No, which is why I switched to Bjj.
I've never seen a striking art train knife defense in any way that seemed at all likely to succeed. If there's a weapon, you've really got three choices if you can't defuse the situation:In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ? I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.
I never bar hopped without a wing man... Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy. Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them! (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.) I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.
The Lone Mugger scenario.. a high percentage use a weapon. I don't know, nor have seen any grappler who could deal with a serious knife attack..i.e. without taking a serious, possibly life ending wound(s).. Every mock scenario I've seen on youtube or witnessed hat starts with a very aggressive sewing machine attack, the grapple defense falters, and breaks.. if successful.. serious, often fatal wounds would have been acquired during the defense. (No one talks about going into shock and what happens to the body when that happens) Because of the lethalness of knife attacks FBI and law enforcement teach distance (i.e. mobility as a defense) while employing a firearm.
Ok... So one get's lucky and runs into a Thug Mugger who uses his fists to thrash money and valuables from his victim, that's a level of violence few even if "booked up on technique" are prepared for. The best can and do freeze. OK trained BJJ guy submits the thug... Then what.. ??? Hold him tell he says "Uncle" then let him up? In an ally? A deserted parking lot? rool the dice and let him up? Dislocate, break... what? Who trains to end someone's life? Going further on the this .... the BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker. Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder? Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them? If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by. Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...
I'm a firm believer you react under extreme pressure by how you train and what methods you train in. I see a lot of rolling in BJJ, which IMO is counter intuitive to effective self defense... which is always based around mobility using distance as a defense. I've had BJJ guys say .. that's exactly what I'd train to do i.e. "maintain distance!"
Ok... then what about that is different or superior to Karate?...
From my perspective and maybe I'm missing something and I could be... but I don't see a lot of reality outside of sport in BJJ. Most BJJ focus on Rolling, take downs, slips, entering, mount technique, guard technique, submissions, chokes etc etc Yes... Yes...and yes.... that's really effective mono vs mono or in sport... Yet..... In Reality it is extremely rare a "duel to the death" by hand to hand combat happens . I just don't read that in the newspapers...
Face Saving" violence. Drunk on Drunk... Drunk vs Sober... scenarios like that... all martial arts IMO are equal.
IMO.... Urban Trekker basically dropped the mic and walked out the room and ended this thread with the " for a scenario beyond that,(i.e Saving Face in School Yard scenario) you need to be going the range regularly. I totally agree... training with a focus on mobility and employing a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon preferably a firearm ) is training self defense. Period... all other school yard scenarios Karate is sufficient
And, no, I don't think a CCW is usually a good option for self-defense. Most folks are poorly trained with their weapons, and even worse at drawing them quickly to get on target. And knife vs gun-not-yet-drawn goes pretty badly on average within about 25-30 feet if the knife wielder is actually attacking. With sufficient training and a good understanding of the limitations of the weapon, a gun can be effective. Most people I've known who carried lacked at least one of those two elements.
Period... all other school yard scenarios Karate is sufficient
well if they do indeed learn to win those fights, there is little need to stick around any longer than thatExactly, and let's just put out there the fact that people who take up martial arts in order to win school yard (types of) fights tend not to stick around long anyway. It costs money, it costs time that you could be sitting on your couch at home watching Netflix, and it requires you to stick to it for a long time. After awhile, they'll decide that they'd rather just take their chances untrained. And I wouldn't blame them. If that's why you're doing it, it's not worth it.
well if they do indeed learn to win those fights, there is little need to stick around any longer than that
people tend to stop having driving lessons when they have reached the pre determind level of ability, if they can now" drive" is a value judgment
Since you started with the assertion that folks who start with the intention to learn to fight schoolyard fights don't stick around, I'm assuming you're linking this statistic to that claim. Where's the evidence the folks you're talking about here started for that reason?I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some). This is consistent with my anecdotal observations. That's not going to do much for anyone.
Since you started with the assertion that folks who start with the intention to learn to fight schoolyard fights don't stick around, I'm assuming you're linking this statistic to that claim.
Where's the evidence the folks you're talking about here started for that reason?
My experience is that folks don't stick around for a number of reasons, but three reasons seem to be the most common from observation. Either it's more work than they are willing to put in (getting sore and such), it's not as much fun as it looked (some folks are just joining because MA looks like fun - which it is to most of us who stick), or other priorities get in the way (keeping time open for MA classes would interfere with other priorities).