Has MMA damaged your view on your martial art?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

.....You can't expect some one who attends Angry Joe's Karate and Pizza Emporium three times a week for an hour a class to be able to stand toe to toe with an MMA fighter like Liddell......

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but good points.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kroh]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but good points.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry about posting the name that way but there are schools like that here where I live (that boast of their martial prowess and couldn't krotty chop the head off of a cucumber) and I didn't want to name names as libel and slander suits are all the rage these days...

Regards,
Walt

 

[cfr]

......So now I reach the point of the post....I would like to know if any of you have experience the same thoughts about your martial art?Do you ever find yourself doubting your teacher or the techniques that are used?Do you now find your Art too one dimensional?what do you think Organisations like the UFC and Pride done for your Arts reputation?Should your style of martial art change in order to compete in MMA?...and why don't you think your art did not do too well in the first Mixed Martial Arts tournaments?

I wasnt really into any MA when the UFC started. However, in my short MA career Ive done a bit of both TMA and MMA. Im really a middle of the road kind of guy. But if I had to pick one, MMA is what I beleive in. The reason is pointed out above. The times of tried TMA, I doubted the techniques too much. The reason being that of all the fights I've seen, MMA, school, bar, those hooligans at soccer matches, etc. , Ive never once seen a fight that looked like TMA techniques. Now I know that this is a very broad statement, and some TMA schools may look that way, but none of those that Ive seen (which is admittedly very small).

 

[Kreth]

Sorry about posting the name that way but there are schools like that here where I live (that boast of their martial prowess and couldn't krotty chop the head off of a cucumber) and I didn't want to name names as libel and slander suits are all the rage these days...

It goes both ways though. You have Billy Badass, who trains 2 hours a week at the Killer Kage Gym, and has every UFC and Pride fight memorized. This cocky young buck thinks that because Liddell is destroying people, he can do the same, even though he's never actually fought outside his gym.
That to me is the biggest problem with the TMA vs. MMA debate, the small percentage of MMA mouthpieces (*cough*Bullshido*cough*) who constantly talk trash about anyone and everyone not training their way.

 

[zDom]

To make MMA fair for other arts what rules would you want taken out in order for your art to have a 'fair' chance?......because Im confused by all this on the streets babble?.....

On the streets "babble"?

I'll try to explain it with small words so you don't get confused.

UFC is a sport. Just a game. It has rules. Just like a Judo tournament, a wrestling match, or Olympic style TKD.

It has a ref to stop things when you get a boo-boo.

I could care less what rules are in or are not in UFC -- I'm not going to play that game.

The risk of injury is too high, win or lose. I've personally had my art tested and heard stories of it being tested in the past -- I have nothing to prove.

That's my point.

All those games can give you SOME indication of what might happen in a true self-defense situation, but none of them are *really* self-defense situations.

And too many MMA guys think that success in the UFC ring = "only techniques that work."

Are there traditional martial artists that are have ineffective techniques? Yep.

There are guys I've worked out with in the same school who couldn't kick their way out of a wet paper bag.

And then there are those of us who kick with lethal power. I'm not saying every time we kick it will kill you -- but make no mistake: they have that potential.

Even hand strikes.

It's not mystical, not magical. Just physics and physiology.

There was a 3rd degree Judo blackbelt that worked out at our school for awhile.

He got sent back to Japan because one night while working as a bouncer he punched a guy in the face and killed him.

Heck, my sister dated a guy whose dad did time for manslaughter because he SLAPPED someone so hard it killed him.

So have fun rolling around on the mat. I'm not saying it isn't good for you -- it's good training, and definately has its value and applications.

But for your own sake, don't deceive yourself and think that your BJJ/MMA training is the end-all, be-all of martial arts.

Stop swallowing the marketing hype and open your mind.

When you narrow down your techniques to fit ONE PARTICULAR set of circumstances (i.e., the UFC octagon), you are specializing to the point where you will be unprepared for other situations.

Training is highly specific.

Tune it all out as "babble" if you like. (shrug)

 

[kroh]

It goes both ways though. You have Billy Badass, who trains 2 hours a week at the Killer Kage Gym, and has every UFC and Pride fight memorized. This cocky young buck thinks that because Liddell is destroying people, he can do the same, even though he's never actually fought outside his gym.

I agree 100%. They have one of those gyms here in the city where I live. One of the guys I used to train with goes there. From one I have seen...they are all really nice guys who are competant martial competitors and have some reall skill. The guy I used to train with was young and was much like you spoke about. What I found was funny was that one day we hit the floor to fight he wanted to try some MMA techniques during the match. I told him it was no problem as long as I could work on my stuff too. When he started to come at me...I pulled my pocket trainer (spyderco folding trainer) and "cut" him in the femoral on both sides and gave him a few across the throat. All his training went out the window because even though he trained MMA for three nights a week, he didn't train it to the extent of the professionals (who probably would have fed me the knife).

That to me is the biggest problem with the TMA vs. MMA debate, the small percentage of MMA mouthpieces (*cough*Bullshido*cough*) who constantly talk trash about anyone and everyone not training their way.

I agree that there are some loud mouths that tarnish the reputations of the solid fighters. While I don't train with the MMA guys that often, I do some pretty traditional martial arts as my main focus. I prefer them in some cases as I am really a big sissy and would rather fight with dagger or baton than I would my fists. Both TMA and MMA have their following and despite both shouting at each other across the pond, both can live side by side.

We just have to learn to learn from each other rather than my art is better than your art each other to death.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Lisa]

Moderator Note:

Please Keep The Conversation Polite And Respectful.

Thank You.

Lisa Deneka
Martialtalk Super Moderator

 

[cfr]

As stated Im really a middle of the roader. Every time this debate comes up I ask the same things to the TMA guys, and have yet to get an answer.

1; If a TMA guy and an MMA guy got into a fight, what makes you think the MMA guy would stick to rules? Whilst my training much more resembles MMA than TMA, if I got into a real fight, Id pick up the nearest weapon and attempt to smack you in the head with it. Do you really think MMA guys are too dumb to realize they're not in a cage?

2; Why do you think TMA doesnt have rules? Wouldnt pulling a punch be considered a rule? You dont really eye gouge, neck strike, groin kick in training do you? Of course not, it's against the dojo rules. Plus there would be nobody to train with.

Another point, for every MMA guy that has all UFC fights memorized and thinks he can fight like Lidell, there is a TMA guy that is practicing his deadly techs against the air, convinced that they would work against a resisting opponent. Both sides have dorks in fantasy land.

Yet another point. Both way have case studies of people that did or did not succeed in a fight. We can all point them out.

 

[Odin]

I really do't think you would have to modify the rules of MMA in order to give other arts a chance... It would all come down to who was the better fighter. Period. If you are more conditioned, trained, and prepared than the other guy... you will win the event.

Just watched #62 over the weekend. Sobral had all the skill, talent, and instinct to be the man. Liddell put him down in the first round because that is what he trains to do. He has the right frame combined with the right mindset combined with the right training. He doesn't go to the ground because he likes to throw some one a beating. It is basic math. If you train x hours per day combined with the proper training and have a little luck, you will win.

You can't expect some one who attends Angry Joe's Karate and Pizza Emporium three times a week for an hour a class to be able to stand toe to toe with an MMA fighter like Liddell. The Angry Joe's guy might have been training for ten years, if his regimen and training principles are not as severe as Chuck's...Pizza guy is in for a rough night.

I could beat Chuck... But I would need body armor, a riot batton, and several buddies with high powered rifles on the roof next door...

...Wouldn't want it to be an unfair fight ...

Regards,
Walt

Hey man lets not mention the liddell thing its still quite soar with me right now lol!

 

[Odin]

It goes both ways though. You have Billy Badass, who trains 2 hours a week at the Killer Kage Gym, and has every UFC and Pride fight memorized. This cocky young buck thinks that because Liddell is destroying people, he can do the same, even though he's never actually fought outside his gym.
That to me is the biggest problem with the TMA vs. MMA debate, the small percentage of MMA mouthpieces (*cough*Bullshido*cough*) who constantly talk trash about anyone and everyone not training their way.

Thats really the person and no the art though,Theres a TKD guy at my gym who talks smack all the time and does fancy kicks on the bag outside the Dojo...yet never steps foot in my muay thai class.

You will find though that alot of fighters are arrogrant you kind of have to be, its hard having the convidence to fight in the ring/cage on the regular.

 

[Kensai]

This WHOLE debate has been done so many times I don't know what further to add to it except this. We've recently painted our walls magnolia, my mate has painted his red. Which is the best painted wall?

 

[Makalakumu]

If I were to sum up the TMA vs MMA thing with one statement, it would be that MMA exposed bad teaching.

 

[Odin]

On the streets "babble"?

I'll try to explain it with small words so you don't get confused.

UFC is a sport. Just a game. It has rules. Just like a Judo tournament, a wrestling match, or Olympic style TKD.

It has a ref to stop things when you get a boo-boo.

I could care less what rules are in or are not in UFC -- I'm not going to play that game.

The risk of injury is too high, win or lose. I've personally had my art tested and heard stories of it being tested in the past -- I have nothing to prove.

That's my point.

All those games can give you SOME indication of what might happen in a true self-defense situation, but none of them are *really* self-defense situations.

And too many MMA guys think that success in the UFC ring = "only techniques that work."

Are there traditional martial artists that are have ineffective techniques? Yep.

There are guys I've worked out with in the same school who couldn't kick their way out of a wet paper bag.

And then there are those of us who kick with lethal power. I'm not saying every time we kick it will kill you -- but make no mistake: they have that potential.

Even hand strikes.

It's not mystical, not magical. Just physics and physiology.

There was a 3rd degree Judo blackbelt that worked out at our school for awhile.

He got sent back to Japan because one night while working as a bouncer he punched a guy in the face and killed him.

Heck, my sister dated a guy whose dad did time for manslaughter because he SLAPPED someone so hard it killed him.

So have fun rolling around on the mat. I'm not saying it isn't good for you -- it's good training, and definately has its value and applications.

But for your own sake, don't deceive yourself and think that your BJJ/MMA training is the end-all, be-all of martial arts.

Stop swallowing the marketing hype and open your mind.

When you narrow down your techniques to fit ONE PARTICULAR set of circumstances (i.e., the UFC octagon), you are specializing to the point where you will be unprepared for other situations.

Training is highly specific.

Tune it all out as "babble" if you like. (shrug)

Bro theres no need to be rude.

I'll be honest your post was all over the place so i struggled to make sense of it as but i think I figured out what you was getting at....

look a fight ends when your opponent cant continue right,maybe its because you knocked him out ,maybe because you broke his arm and he didnt want to fight no more what ever,but from that point on the fight is won, since your standing and that guys not, now the only difference between the octagon and the street is that fact that big john tells you to stop once you have won the fight...let me say that again..when you have won the fight (which would be the aim if attacked right), now on the street its up to you if you want to carry on smashing a man with chops while he's been knocked out or if you want to break his other arm..what ever..to me..like in compition..I know when Ive won a fight when he's finished,even in self defence im not trying to kill the guy you kno.w and all that is really similar to when you win in the ring.

Now I know someone is going to say ''what about multiple attackers'' and I say MMA is not taught how you guys might think.In my gym,you have a Muay thai trainer,a jujitsu trainer, a boxing training and a greco roman wreatler,you learn from all of these people, the place I train even sudjust that you go other places to train with other people and get different opinions of things or to learn different techniques...which also means my training is up to me if I want to learn how to fight 3 people I can learn that from another art,thats the beauty of MMA.

And aswel I hear this ''in the street you cant roll across the floor''..why would you do that? jujitsu is just a quarter of what is taught....what about muay thai?what about boxing?and if someone where to grab you oh look there comes the wreaslting.
So how am I not prepared for the situation??surly an MMA'er would be better prepared then most other Martial Artist (IMO)
And to be honest..and i aslways this ..to be a good fighter you need to fight,you need practice.fighting is not all theory guys.


''stop swallowing the market hype?''...bro thats a silly statement to make and quite insulting thats like me telling you to stop watching 70's kung fu flicks and keep it real.
This is the 'friendly' discussion sit after all,I just wanted opionins not an argument you know.

 

[Odin]

If I were to sum up the TMA vs MMA thing with one statement, it would be that MMA exposed bad teaching.

I disagree.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This WHOLE debate has been done so many times I don't know what further to add to it except this. We've recently painted our walls magnolia, my mate has painted his red. Which is the best painted wall?

Just cleaned the basement.

Let me sum up

MMA is best
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't

Repeat 10,000 more times and still nothing is resolved.

 

[Makalakumu]

I disagree.

When your teaching objectives become separated from what you are doing in class, then the teacher is engaging in bad teaching. In TMA alot of stuff was deleted and alot of stuff was made up and it ended up separating various arts from the objective of defending oneself.

IMHO, the bottom line is that all arts, if taught well to the objectives they claim, can be effective.

 

[Kensai]

Just cleaned the basement.

Let me sum up

MMA is best
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't

Repeat 10,000 more times and still nothing is resolved.

I think you'll find Mr XS that it's TMA that's better!
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
yes it is
no it isn't
etc etc etc etc etc etc...

 

[Andrew Green]

I disagree.

To a point it did, it exposed a lot of the style vs style nonsense people would say to claim there style's superiority.

Things like "If a wrestler tries to take you down all you have to do is throw *Insert knee, elbow, ear slap, etc. here* all went out the window when people started tring these things against people that knew how to wrestle.

Or the ever popular "If someone mounts you, tiger claw technique to finish them"

A lot of nonsense got exposed for what it was. People making claims about how to deal with things they didn't understand. At the time, very few fighters in North America understood the ground, or even the clinch, although many thought they could deal with it through posture, strikes, etc.

I don't think the styles can be faulted. For the most part this was outside of there "goals", but rather instructors that wanted to tell everyone "there" style was the best in all possible situations rather then being able to admit there style is strengths AND weaknesses.

 

[zDom]

Bro theres no need to be rude.

I agree. But rude is exactly how I saw this comment:

...because Im confused by all this on the streets babble?.....

I'll be honest your post was all over the place so i struggled to make sense of it as but i think I figured out what you was getting at....

You brought up a lot of issues to address.

And you missed my point. It's not just about "when a fight ends."

I'll quote myself since you missed it the first time:

That's my point.

All those games can give you SOME indication of what might happen in a true self-defense situation, but none of them are *really* self-defense situations.

Now I know someone is going to say ''what about multiple attackers'' .... If I want to learn how to fight 3 people I can learn that from another art,thats the beauty of MMA.

Yea, I've made the multiple attacker point before and will continue to make it.

The beauty of hapkido is I don't have to track down and train with a dozen different instructors. I get it all from one place, one instructor.

In addition to that, hapkido builds character.

And aswel I hear this ''in the street you cant roll across the floor''..why would you do that? jujitsu is just a quarter of what is taught....what about muay thai?what about boxing?and if someone where to grab you oh look there comes the wreaslting.
So how am I not prepared for the situation??surly an MMA'er would be better prepared then most other Martial Artist (IMO)
And to be honest..and i aslways this ..to be a good fighter you need to fight,you need practice.fighting is not all theory guys.

I'm pretty sure I gave you anecdotes of real events, not theory. I even shared some personal experience: see page 4 of this thread.

For the record, how many times have you defended yourself with you MMA? Share an anecdote.

''stop swallowing the market hype?''...bro thats a silly statement to make and quite insulting thats like me telling you to stop watching 70's kung fu flicks and keep it real.

the marketing hype, not market hype. You don't think the way you asked your questions was insulting?

Let me refresh your memory with a couple of quotes:

all of a sudden all the mystic spinning flying jumping attacks that I used to be certain would knockout any assailant out in an instant became clumsy and impractical,

all the ''downward knife' karate chops to the neck didn't seem to have the desired effects that I read about in books infact they just looked silly

talk of points on the body that once stuck would effect internal organs didn't seem to be working like they should I failed to hear big john shout ''winning by exploding kidney from ear poke'' it just didn't happen...

Do you now find your Art too one dimensional?

In my first post, I tried nicely to address your questions, even though I didn't think you asked them nicely.

I gave concrete examples. That's the nature of real encounters: rarely are there film crews available. But I've witnessed some, experienced some, and been told by reputable sources about others.

This is the 'friendly' discussion sit after all,I just wanted opionins not an argument you know.

When I give my opinion you call it babble. That's not friendly, IMO.

Sounds like you are less interested in honestly considering opinions than you are in proving your MMA "buffet" approach is better than anybody else's training path.

I won't waste any more of your time or my time in trying to discuss this with you since you seem much more ready to give and take offense than to listen with an open mind.

My apologies to those who have read this thread and found my comments to be less than respectful -- that was not my intention.

I sometimes get caught up in my own rhetoric.

 

[tradrockrat]

Another point, for every MMA guy that has all UFC fights memorized and thinks he can fight like Lidell, there is a TMA guy that is practicing his deadly techs against the air, convinced that they would work against a resisting opponent. Both sides have dorks in fantasy land.

LMFAO!

This is the best reply yet.


LMAO again...