Has MMA damaged your view on your martial art?

[Odin]

I can remember watching UFC 1 w/ a bunch of friends from TKD & feeling a bit like Odin (Whoa, does my stuff work after all?) but also feeling like my eyes had been opened to other possibilities. Being a stand up fighter & seeing UFC 1 I saw for the 1st time a bigger view of self-defense.

15 years later, I have a different set of mixed feeling about it. The stakes seem too high for me (physically to the body) & the brutallity a bit too much. Are they talented MA-ists? Yes. But I'm not a big fan.

Well me myself am a Muay thai fighter first, how do you feel about stand-up MMA like K-1?
I notice semmy shilt dropped his karate style of punching in favour of a more boxers style after a couple of fights.

k-1 changed my mind on certain spin kicks.

 

[Mustafa]

Has MMA damaged your view on your martial art?

Me.
I dont do MMA.
I would like an art that combines all the things that all the different MA has to offer.
As if collecting things from different MA. - I would not judge a MA quality by its practitioners. I should by judgin the teachings of that MA.

 

[IcemanSK]

Well me myself am a Muay thai fighter first, how do you feel about stand-up MMA like K-1?
I notice semmy shilt dropped his karate style of punching in favour of a more boxers style after a couple of fights.

k-1 changed my mind on certain spin kicks.

K-1 has its place. I'm slightly more interested in that than UFC/Pride. I used to train full-contact kickboxing, so the familliar name (Hoost/Roufus) have been a draw for me. I too, appreciate the boxer-style punches. I miss the hey-day of PKA & full contact. I'm old, so the "good ol' days" were better in my eyes.:ultracool

 

[kroh]

MMA did a lot for opening people's eyes in regards to training with resistance. Repetative partner training is necessary in the beginning to build the actions you need, but you also need to practice at some point against a partner that will challenge your ideas about those motions. The MMA in the very beginning turned into a big wrestling match after the first two or three. I was at UFC 5 in North Carolina with the "Super Match" between Royce Gracie and Frank Shamrock. It sucked. They stayed on the ground for 33 minutes trying to jocky for position. That taught me that what they were doing was not valid for a live confrontation but was very good for the competition that they were doing.

Even the Brazillian Jiujitsu (kills me to spell it like that) guys know the difference between competition and being down-range. They have all the groovy stuff the rest of us do (including strikes) but they use what works for the ring when they compete.

In the end, for me, all the MMA stuff did was show me what worked in a competative sense. MMA like UFC is a SPORT and there needs to be rules so our favorite fighters can come back and do it again. Hard to compete when your dead or paralized.

As far as how I look at my martial arts, I try to test out what I learn constantly against agressive (first one knocked out buys the first round) and resisting partners. I prefer martial arts that have deep roots and also, ones that have seen the bull eye to eye. I also prefer not to take things on faith. Just because some soldier 300 years ago said some thing works does not mean I shouldn't see it work for myself. MMA will do little to change my perceptions about martial arts in this era...

"The winner of a hand to hand fight is the first guy whose buddy shows up with a gun."

Regards,
Walt

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

See I dont think thats true the first couple fo UFC's when under the Gracie family had very little rules,headbutting,throat strikes, all of which was legal no offence but saying 'my art wont win in compition because im not allowed to poke someone in the eye or kick them in the nuts'' doesnt say alot about your martial art...the rules in place in todays UFC are a result of the Atheltic Commisions attempts to make the sport more T.V friendly....after all whats the point in putting on a show thats can only be aired past watershed...you cut half your audience...and half your sponsors.

First off, I did not say anything like the above. Please do not try and put words into my mouth! Now what I was putting across is that MMA events simply put, have rules. (it is and always has been a sporting event) They even had rules back in the day of the first UFC! In a real world self defense encounter their are no rules. Simply put, you can train in anything and still get handed your butt if you make a miscalculation or do not take into acount multiple factors. Could a MMA trained person do well on the street, sure. Does training in MMA guarantee success, no way. Do I train in MMA, absolutely. Simply put, the UFC opened up peoples eyes and that was a good thing in my mind.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[ajs1976]

Damaged has a negative meaning for me. Has it expanded or altered my view? - Yes

 

[Odin]

K-1 has its place. I'm slightly more interested in that than UFC/Pride. I used to train full-contact kickboxing, so the familliar name (Hoost/Roufus) have been a draw for me. I too, appreciate the boxer-style punches. I miss the hey-day of PKA & full contact. I'm old, so the "good ol' days" were better in my eyes.:ultracool

lol Im too young to remember the old days, im sure google vids can show me the light though ( :

I must say though the new school of k-1 fighters are awesome, i know in 20years time we would be still talking about the buakaw's and the souwer's.lol

 

[Odin]

First off, I did not say anything like the above. Please do not try and put words into my mouth! Now what I was putting across is that MMA events simply put, have rules. (it is and always has been a sporting event) They even had rules back in the day of the first UFC! In a real world self defense encounter their are no rules. Simply put, you can train in anything and still get handed your butt if you make a miscalculation or do not take into acount multiple factors. Could a MMA trained person do well on the street, sure. Does training in MMA guarantee success, no way. Do I train in MMA, absolutely. Simply put, the UFC opened up peoples eyes and that was a good thing in my mind.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

sorry bro I just wrote a breif summary of what the difference between the first UFC and the street were...which is no eye poking no nut kicking and no playing with each others fingers...thats all.
In the street there are no rules true....but whats the closest thing to a street fight your going to see?


And another thing everyone heres vision of mma is what they show on the T.V think about Mixed Martial Arts if I did judo and i thought ''hmmmm I might want to know how to chop someone after I have done this move,i know I'll do a bit of karate as well'' that there would be MMA.

 

[MJS]

Like any young child I always had an interest with the martial Arts whether it was Bruce Lee performing one inch punches to the power ranger doing spinning back kicks, I always though wow I would love to be able to do that!I was in owe of the things that these practitioners could do and Hollywood seemed to endlessly feed this addiction I had.
The martial arts themselves held a Mystic aura about them that I found fascinating I was watching karate guys break bricks with hands and would think wow image if that guy hit someone or I'd see TkD fighters seem to endlessly break the laws of physics with their flying kicks and I was amazed!.......................until along came Rorion Gracie and his UFC and utterly destroyed every myth and appreciations I had about the Martial Arts, all of a sudden all the mystic spinning flying jumping attacks that I used to be certain would knockout any assailant out in an instant became clumsy and impractical,all the ''downward knife' karate chops to the neck didn't seem to have the desired effects that I read about in books infact they just looked silly,talk of points on the body that once stuck would effect internal organs didn't seem to be working like they should I failed to hear big john shout ''winning by exploding kidney from ear poke'' it just didn't happen......So now I reach the point of the post....I would like to know if any of you have experience the same thoughts about your martial art?

A)Do you ever find yourself doubting your teacher or the techniques that are used?

B)Do you now find your Art too one dimensional?

C)what do you think Organisations like the UFC and Pride done for your Arts reputation?

D)Should your style of martial art change in order to compete in MMA?...and why don't you think your art did not do too well in the first Mixed Martial Arts tournaments?

I think that the UFC opened peoples eyes to the importance of including grappling in your training, training with aliveness, and the importance of cross training or cross referencing other arts. One thing that we need to keep in mind, is that while it may have changed some views, I still do not consider it to be the end all, be all of fighting. It is still a sporting event and it has its limitations. I'll now take the time to address your questions in the above post.

A) No. All of my teachers keep the training real, add in aliveness, scenario drills, etc.

B) No. There have always been aspects of grappling, close ranges, etc., in the arts I study. Its just a matter of being able to extract them.

C) See my initial post.

D) I've already included many ideas into my training. As for the second part of that question, as I said above, its a sporting event with rules. One thing to remember, is when you put two styles together, with the rules that favor one or the other, someone is always forced to play the other persons game.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

lol very blunt, I'll be honest I find your reply a little bit ignorant

Sorry to hear that.

Your response does tells me a lot about you though.

but its obvious that you have had this conversation sometime before and maybe too many times to warrant you going through it again.
which is fine eveyones is intitled to there own opinion

It is an old rehashed and I believe in this case somewhat veiled MMA vs. TMA argument that is generally put forth by those that do not practice MMA or have not practiced it long. I have had many conversations with true MMA people and surprisingly it never goes this route. Many of them actually practice some sort of TMA to help them with there MMA training.

I will leave you to you post.

 

[Rook]

It is an old rehashed and I believe in this case somewhat veiled MMA vs. TMA argument that is generally put forth by those that do not practice MMA or have not practiced it long.

The professionals are generally too busy training to be bothered. I doubt you will find many of the higher level fighters to have a positive view of the efficacy of TMA or RBSD with the possible partial exception of Bas Rutten who is selling a modified krav manga knife defense.

I have had many conversations with true MMA people and surprisingly it never goes this route. Many of them actually practice some sort of TMA to help them with there MMA training.

I will leave you to you post.

Who were these "true practitioners?" I know of very few people who are actually competitive in MMA that practice other arts in any form. There is a huge differance between local kids who do a little BJJ with their TKD and whatever else is around and the solid professional fighters who actually do the MMA fighting.

Sometimes a few classes in groundwork or MMA methodology is enough to clean up local practitioners of TMA. However, there are plenty of people who like to think of themselves as MMAists rather than whatever they actually are - people who buy the Tapout clothes and the gracies video series but don't actually fight professionally or in serious amateur competitions. They may be able to put forward the MMA methodology and statistics (as can I, even though I have never trained true MMA) but are not really in a position to defend it fully themselves.

The best defense of MMA is not in arguements but in video.

 

[matt.m]

I don't see MMA as martial arts. Sorry, to me MMA is like calling WWE actual wrestling. Both are sport, however; I think that since there is actual damage done to people and they are trying to hurt each other then the UFC/MMA stuff is fun to watch.

 

[Rook]

Oh, and about those pesky rules....

At least 3 significant tournaments have been held sans any rules - we discussed it here with clip: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36601.

Tournaments have been and are still held with nothing but fines for biting and eyegouging - including several of the early UFCs and the current Combat SAMBO Total format in Russia.

Tournaments have been and are held with only biting and eyegouging prohibited - like Finnfight.

Also, lots of challenge matches have been fought without rules. Many MMA gyms regularly field no-rules challenges from self-proclaimed local tough guys and deluded nutcases.

You would think by now a "Indigo Palm Rabid Dragon in Action*" video series should have surfaced of TMA practitioner going around beating MMAists by showing the weakness of their system to biting and prohibited tactics to match the gracies tapes and the challenge match videos floating around. You would think that if MMA didn't work on concrete, someone would have a tape showing something besides themselves getting KOed on it trying to fight MMAists. We don't. Anywhere. Why? All the weaknesses in MMA.... where are the people to step up and win fights and PROVE (as opposed to assert) those things?

*I am not aware of any actual system called Indigo Palm Rabid Dragon... apologies if it actually exists.

 

[Rook]

I don't see MMA as martial arts. Sorry, to me MMA is like calling WWE actual wrestling. Both are sport, however; I think that since there is actual damage done to people and they are trying to hurt each other then the UFC/MMA stuff is fun to watch.

Do Shui Chaio, Judo, TKD, etc also only count as sports?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Not all. I have been studying different styles my whole life. This "MMA trend" has just opened more people's eyes and proved what my original instructor stressed to me 20 years ago.

The more tools you have, the more likely you'll have the one you need. But also the more likely you'll have a longer time picking the right one unless you keep them all organized.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The professionals are generally too busy training to be bothered. I doubt you will find many of the higher level fighters to have a positive view of the efficacy of TMA or RBSD with the possible partial exception of Bas Rutten who is selling a modified krav manga knife defense.



Who were these "true practitioners?" I know of very few people who are actually competitive in MMA that practice other arts in any form. There is a huge differance between local kids who do a little BJJ with their TKD and whatever else is around and the solid professional fighters who actually do the MMA fighting.

Sometimes a few classes in groundwork or MMA methodology is enough to clean up local practitioners of TMA. However, there are plenty of people who like to think of themselves as MMAists rather than whatever they actually are - people who buy the Tapout clothes and the gracies video series but don't actually fight professionally or in serious amateur competitions. They may be able to put forward the MMA methodology and statistics (as can I, even though I have never trained true MMA) but are not really in a position to defend it fully themselves.

The best defense of MMA is not in arguements but in video.

Sorry, please allow me to rephrase

It is an old rehashed and I believe in this case somewhat veiled MMA vs. TMA argument that is generally put forth by those that do not practice MMA or have not practiced it long. I have had many conversations with true MMA people and surprisingly it never goes this route. Many of them actually have practiced some sort of TMA that helped them with there MMA training. (past tense)

Now for purposes of definition I am talking people that actually train MMA, I have no idea where they compete or if they have. Also before names are demanded I will not give out names of people that do not have a promotional website or are not published without prior permission.

And before the inevitable attacks on me begin from the MMA camp maybe you had better familiarize yourselves with my stance on MMA and TMA that I have said time and time again on MT.

I have never said anything against MMA actually I am rather impressed with the level of training of MMA people. However I do not consider it any better than TMA nor do I consider MMA the be all end all of Martial arts.

And as I have said time and time again, much to the anger of some MMA people, there are other martial competitions that other styles of martial artists focus on. And it for example you wish to compare CMA to MMA you have to compare Sanshou and MMA.

nough said

 

[kroh]

It is my opinion that MMA guys are very effective once you remove all the "you can't do this or that" methodology that is prevalent in America. The other thing that the MMA guys have going for them is conditioning. The average overweight Karate Mom&Pop player can't stand toe to toe with a MMA fighter. But that is just the point of many of the TMA and RSBD guys here. We wouldn't want to. I study traditional and non traditional martial arts and even in my best shape wouldn't want to take on those guys without a weapon. Despite many of the grudges that people have about MMA, it does produce fantastic results and does combine certain "fields" of martial study together, well.

I believe that MMA is definately going in the right driection in that people aren't just rolling around the ground anymore. The striking is looking better as people are pawing at each other out of range less and closing to effective range as well as defending against takedowns more. While the ground does have its place (I was once told it was the fifth fighting tool besides the hands and feet), I wouldn't want to be there as I am too damn small and I would be scrificing mobility. Thank God for MMA, firearms sales have never been higher ;-)

Regards,
Walt

 

[mrhnau]

The more tools you have, the more likely you'll have the one you need. But also the more likely you'll have a longer time picking the right one unless you keep them all organized.

well said. Thats likely why you only see a limited variety of kicks and a limited variety of ground submissions. Learn what works in the stated set of rules. Practice ad infinitum. I'm suprised when I actually see a different/unique submission or any form of non-straight forward kick. Less options make for simpler decisions *waits for the TMA crowd to cringe*.

 

[MJS]

Oh, and about those pesky rules....

At least 3 significant tournaments have been held sans any rules - we discussed it here with clip: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36601.

Tournaments have been and are still held with nothing but fines for biting and eyegouging - including several of the early UFCs and the current Combat SAMBO Total format in Russia.

Tournaments have been and are held with only biting and eyegouging prohibited - like Finnfight.

I think thats the main difference, when people start talking about the rules. The fights that you mention are taking place outside of the US. I have a few Vale Tudo tapes that take place in Brazil and I see quite a bit that would most likely not be allowed in the US.

Thanks for posting that link to the fight BTW!!:ultracool

You would think by now a "Indigo Palm Rabid Dragon in Action*" video series should have surfaced of TMA practitioner going around beating MMAists by showing the weakness of their system to biting and prohibited tactics to match the gracies tapes and the challenge match videos floating around. You would think that if MMA didn't work on concrete, someone would have a tape showing something besides themselves getting KOed on it trying to fight MMAists. We don't. Anywhere. Why? All the weaknesses in MMA.... where are the people to step up and win fights and PROVE (as opposed to assert) those things?

Speaking for myself, as I said in my earlier post, I do give them credit for bringing many things to the table that we, as MAists, should be adding to our material. While I certainly give them a ton of credit for their stand up ability, I will say that I have yet to see weapons or mult. attackers addressed. I started a thread a while ago on that very subject and I was a bit disappointed with some of the replies I received. BJJ certainly dominates on the ground, but in a crowded area, with the potential for someone to kick me in the head, while I'm trying for a submission, I think it'd be best to remain standing.


Mike

 

[Marginal]

I think a lot of the basics of what makes a good MMA fighter can be adapted to any art. (Mainly conditioning and a willingness to explore situations involving a resisting opponent with as limited a ruleset as possible.) IMO MMA's well beyond grappling rules vs striking rules etc. "Pure" fighters of any system are going to have trouble in a MMA environment if they don't take other ranges etc into account.

Has it tainted my perception of my art? To a degree. However, I think anything needs to be approaced with some amount of skepticism otherwise you end up making sure your tounge is in the right position for magic chi balls to KO you etc.